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SO MAYBE WE SHOULD LOWER OUR STANDARDS A TAD.
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Karsuman
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Closeauthor=GreatRedSpirit link=topic=1340.msg20731#msg20731 date=1213905856
I'd argue that the first line is mostly fluff that actually doesn't say anything. 'If you so desire' adds absolutely nothing to the dialogue except letters that need to be displayed and it sounds incredibly unnatural. Really, I was probably thinking of "How could I make this line better?" and came to some stupid conclusion that adding junk would help.
You are correct.
Dialogue is supposed to have a functional purpose (essential information) or develop character (unessential information - generally).
Just keep in mind that a character might be wordy due to his personality, and not because his dialogue is bad. This random character's line suggests that he is an unimportant one-shot character who no one cares about outside of him fulfilling his intended function. But how about, for example, when writing for a politician or a wise dragon? Then something like the first line might be more appropriate (outside of the whole 'souls' bit).
TMAC
0
Yeah, I pretty much agree with Karsuman and GRS concerning dialogue. One of the biggest detractors for ME when playing a game is really verbose dialogue. It's fine if it fits the character, but not when everyone in the game speaks as if the writer was trying to write a graduate level thesis. It's just not how people normally speak. Which brings me to a certain point I try to hold to: Don't write dialogue on the fly/off the cuff.
I like to have at least 95% of the maps finished, the characters plotted out, the story full developed, all before I start writing a script. This way you can keep a consistent style that jives with the characters personality, and the feel of the game.
I like to have at least 95% of the maps finished, the characters plotted out, the story full developed, all before I start writing a script. This way you can keep a consistent style that jives with the characters personality, and the feel of the game.
author=TMAC link=topic=1340.msg20767#msg20767 date=1213914345
Yeah, I pretty much agree with Karsuman and GSP concerning dialogue. One of the biggest detractors for ME when playing a game is really verbose dialogue. It's fine if it fits the character, but not when everyone in the game speaks as if the writer was trying to write a graduate level thesis.
I completely agree with this. Some characters can be wordy if it fits them (Fat man in fancy suit, top hat, and monocle using big long winded speeches as a sort of passive-condosending tone). When every character is like that (or minor characters that you interact with more than the usual, like merchants) takes ages to talk to since they say so many words (even if the meaning is something that could be said in a fraction of the used words) thats when there is something terribly wrong with your dialogue.
author=TMAC link=topic=1340.msg20767#msg20767 date=1213914345
Yeah, I pretty much agree with Karsuman and GRS concerning dialogue. One of the biggest detractors for ME when playing a game is really verbose dialogue. It's fine if it fits the character, but not when everyone in the game speaks as if the writer was trying to write a graduate level thesis. It's just not how people normally speak. Which brings me to a certain point I try to hold to: Don't write dialogue on the fly/off the cuff.
I like to have at least 95% of the maps finished, the characters plotted out, the story full developed, all before I start writing a script. This way you can keep a consistent style that jives with the characters personality, and the feel of the game.
Ugh, what was that one RPGmaker game that was created by means of a thesaurus?
Karsuman is going to produce something?!
j/k This is karsu's area of expertise imo. I wish I could hire him (for free) to develop my characters and plot for me.
j/k This is karsu's area of expertise imo. I wish I could hire him (for free) to develop my characters and plot for me.
S. F. LaValle
1069
I'll write out some of the things I've consciously thought about.
Pacing - As mentioned earlier, don't throw excess amounts...of...poop...at the player. Understand that while you know your story, your characters do not. Let your characters experience the story as it occurs along with the player. Be creative with things to do between story scenes if there's a lot happening (example: in ffxii, they have a lot of non-combat one-shot mini games, like convincing Bhujerba Vaan is Basch).
Dialogue - I agree with the above posts, NPC's have personalities too, but they all shouldn't talk like they're on Gilmore Girls (seriously, the dialogue on this show is atrocious). When you created a character, there's a good chance you had an archetype in mind (for example, you imagine your villain to be Sephiroth-like). The community has done a pretty good job of beating the hell out of the brooding, dark-emo person like Sephiroth, and finding dialogue to match that personality, and you can do that with other archetypes, too. Think about what Barrett would say, or Locke, or Citan, etc, any archetype you may have used. If your character is different, then apply those differences as necessary. Hard to give specific examples.
Characterization - It's daunting to try to take on the task of one who understands human nature, especially considering there is an entire school of medicine and research dedicated to it as a whole and its specific nuances. An easy way is to think of you, your friends, and other people you know. How are you all the same? How are you all different? What would make your friend react to a situation differently than you? Is it because they think of others and you tend to think of yourself? Archetypes also help here too; you'll generally already know who the shoot-first-ask-questions-later character is, the scaredy-cat, the cool-quiet one, etc. Let those personality types dictate the things the characters say, and the actions they take.
Character development - An extension of the last bit. Some characters can change, some will not. I think this might be something oft overlooked for amateur gaming. Being involved in or facilitating world-changing events should in turn be life-changing for those involved. Most heroes aren't born with the resolve to save the world, or initially had intentions much more humble, even if they are some sort of chosen one. What happens to make them change? Maybe they just get into it all so deep that there is no going back. Give heroes the chance to reflect on what has occured throughout the story, and modify the character's actions and dialogue appropriately.
Maybe I could write more. I'm just not very focused at the moment.
Pacing - As mentioned earlier, don't throw excess amounts...of...poop...at the player. Understand that while you know your story, your characters do not. Let your characters experience the story as it occurs along with the player. Be creative with things to do between story scenes if there's a lot happening (example: in ffxii, they have a lot of non-combat one-shot mini games, like convincing Bhujerba Vaan is Basch).
Dialogue - I agree with the above posts, NPC's have personalities too, but they all shouldn't talk like they're on Gilmore Girls (seriously, the dialogue on this show is atrocious). When you created a character, there's a good chance you had an archetype in mind (for example, you imagine your villain to be Sephiroth-like). The community has done a pretty good job of beating the hell out of the brooding, dark-emo person like Sephiroth, and finding dialogue to match that personality, and you can do that with other archetypes, too. Think about what Barrett would say, or Locke, or Citan, etc, any archetype you may have used. If your character is different, then apply those differences as necessary. Hard to give specific examples.
Characterization - It's daunting to try to take on the task of one who understands human nature, especially considering there is an entire school of medicine and research dedicated to it as a whole and its specific nuances. An easy way is to think of you, your friends, and other people you know. How are you all the same? How are you all different? What would make your friend react to a situation differently than you? Is it because they think of others and you tend to think of yourself? Archetypes also help here too; you'll generally already know who the shoot-first-ask-questions-later character is, the scaredy-cat, the cool-quiet one, etc. Let those personality types dictate the things the characters say, and the actions they take.
Character development - An extension of the last bit. Some characters can change, some will not. I think this might be something oft overlooked for amateur gaming. Being involved in or facilitating world-changing events should in turn be life-changing for those involved. Most heroes aren't born with the resolve to save the world, or initially had intentions much more humble, even if they are some sort of chosen one. What happens to make them change? Maybe they just get into it all so deep that there is no going back. Give heroes the chance to reflect on what has occured throughout the story, and modify the character's actions and dialogue appropriately.
Maybe I could write more. I'm just not very focused at the moment.
S. F. LaValle
1069
author=YummyDrumsticks link=topic=1340.msg20827#msg20827 date=1213945105
Ugh, what was that one RPGmaker game that was created by means of a thesaurus?
Phylomortis, which is what they were directly referring to. Amateur gaming's bible on how not to write dialogue.
author=TMAC link=topic=1340.msg20767#msg20767 date=1213914345
I like to have at least 95% of the maps finished, the characters plotted out, the story full developed, all before I start writing a script. This way you can keep a consistent style that jives with the characters personality, and the feel of the game.
I dont know. The whole idea of just going though the motion while making a game is......please dont hate me........odd. I didnt want say dumb because it could be pulled off. Now those people who could pull it off are people who: 1. been doing this for a while or: 2. are just gifted with that kind of skill. Yet Those gifted people are like 1 out of 100.
Now I read the first couple of posts and I have to strongly disagree with the statment use as the example. The plots of a game is not the only thing that drives the story. The dialoge, graphics, body language, etc. There are so many things that most work together to bring out the story of the game.
In a book, the writer is one person and knows exactly what he wants to depicted by a choice of words. Not by pictures or motion. Just words.
Its easy to write a book, but bring that book to life is another story. Ok it is not easy to write a book, but you get what Im saying.
If you see a movie made based on a book, you will find that most of the people who read the book prefer the book over the movie. Ask yourself why?
Shadowtext
120
author=NightCloud link=topic=1340.msg21427#msg21427 date=1214293408Several reasons. One, it's better for their intellectual cred. Two, the effects on screen never match up to their imagination. Three, they go into a movie expecting to get the same sort of experience as they got reading the book, which is just insane. You're dealing with two entirely different media here, and if you try to play to the strengths of one medium in another, you're going to fall flat.
If you see a movie made based on a book, you will find that most of the people who read the book prefer the book over the movie. Ask yourself why?
As an example, look at the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy movie. I actually liked this movie, but basically no one liked it more than the book (now ask them if they prefer the radio plays or the books, you might get a different answer, depending if they've heard them). Mostly this isn't because of the cast or the performances or the special effects or the writing, which were all pretty good, but because the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a story that benefits heavily from a strong, constant narration--a huge portion of the jokes come from the narrator, and rely on the narrator's use of language and wordplay and scansion and things like that. None of these translate to movies well, because voice over narrators on film come out feeling hackneyed. The original radio plays get away with this because, lacking visuals, ongoing narratives are much more acceptable in that medium. Films don't have that excuse.
This doesn't mean that you couldn't have a movie that was better than the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, or even that it would be any more difficult than writing a book that was better (which would admittedly still be all but impossible, but this has nothing to do with the medium), you just wouldn't do it by trying to emulate a book. You'd do it by making something that plays to the strength of film. There are all sorts of things film can do that novels can't, or can't do well at any rate. Tone of voice, line delivery, body language, the construction of scenes and use of camera for saying things that a book would have to do in a much clumsier way...
...video games are the same. They have strengths the others don't. Most importantly, interactivity. No other medium (unless you count Visual Novels as a separate medium from games, which I almost do) offers the option of interactivity, and there are no doubt hundreds, thousands of ways to exploit interactivity to create something that film or novels could never do in a million years.
...but people are so stuck thinking in the twentieth century and judging the artistry of games on their stories or their graphics or their sound. Very rarely do I see any real discourse about gameplay elements as works of art. And I find that very disappointing considering how avant garde the young intellectuals seem to pride themselves on being. Plenty of people will call Shadow of the Colossus or Okami or Metal Gear works of art....not many would call Kirby Canvas Curse one.
There are far too many reasons to list why someone would like a book more than the movie-based-off-the-book.
As for creating 95% of the maps before you create a story, that's hogwash. That's over planning your game and a very risky way to not use a lot of maps.
People think that you must plan out everything for your game before you develop it, but that is terribly inefficient. The best way is a middle ground, where you have a solid grasp of what you CURRENTLY want to produce, and allow the game to develop into its best form.
A good example of this is Metroid Prime 2 and the morph ball launchers. Originally they were not in the game. However while making the multiplayer mode, they put them in and found them to be quite fun. So fun, in fact, that they put them in the singleplayer mode.
The game was allowed to adapt and let new ideas flow out.
As for creating 95% of the maps before you create a story, that's hogwash. That's over planning your game and a very risky way to not use a lot of maps.
People think that you must plan out everything for your game before you develop it, but that is terribly inefficient. The best way is a middle ground, where you have a solid grasp of what you CURRENTLY want to produce, and allow the game to develop into its best form.
A good example of this is Metroid Prime 2 and the morph ball launchers. Originally they were not in the game. However while making the multiplayer mode, they put them in and found them to be quite fun. So fun, in fact, that they put them in the singleplayer mode.
The game was allowed to adapt and let new ideas flow out.
TMAC
0
author=WIP link=topic=1340.msg21470#msg21470 date=1214321271
There are far too many reasons to list why someone would like a book more than the movie-based-off-the-book.
As for creating 95% of the maps before you create a story, that's hogwash. That's over planning your game and a very risky way to not use a lot of maps.
People think that you must plan out everything for your game before you develop it, but that is terribly inefficient. The best way is a middle ground, where you have a solid grasp of what you CURRENTLY want to produce, and allow the game to develop into its best form.
A good example of this is Metroid Prime 2 and the morph ball launchers. Originally they were not in the game. However while making the multiplayer mode, they put them in and found them to be quite fun. So fun, in fact, that they put them in the singleplayer mode.
The game was allowed to adapt and let new ideas flow out
If you look closely I said I like to have most of the game finished before I write out the script, not the story. I know the way I listed it is probably confusing, but I have most of the story and characters plotted out before I start map making. Also, by script I mean specific dialogue and cutscenes shown in the game. Maybe 95% was a little over zealous, but I don't like writing the actual DIALOGUE or SCRIPT for cutscenes and whatnot until I have a good feel for the game. Maybe my use of the term script is a little loose, but I didn't mean "MAEK ALL MAPZ B4 STOREE!" that'd be ridiculous. And I'm not against changing things middevelopment either. It's a process. =P
sabbath
0
Rpg's have alway's been about the story. Personally I could care less about fighting or puzzles or weapon's ofcourse that is a part.
But the foundation is the story...
For example, if you show the greatest battle scene of all time and don't have a great story to bring that battle together it means nothing... because you did not get to know anybody that partcipated in that battle. you don't know there hope's and fear's.
you don't get know where with out a story. and not just a story but a slow story..
it's called pacing and it's my favorite word...Most american's don't like long stories that's why we did not get a lot of jap rpg's (which are some of the greatest game's ever) The key is making people feel involved in the story and make them want to continue... I've looked at allmost all the game's on this site and with the exception of a small few (and I mean this in the most respectfull way) most, do not pull this off. I think you guy's are truly gonna be blown away with my game(I know everybody say's that) I will not give the name just be on the look out for sabbth's game. May the force be with you my rpg brother's and sister's!!!!!
But the foundation is the story...
For example, if you show the greatest battle scene of all time and don't have a great story to bring that battle together it means nothing... because you did not get to know anybody that partcipated in that battle. you don't know there hope's and fear's.
you don't get know where with out a story. and not just a story but a slow story..
it's called pacing and it's my favorite word...Most american's don't like long stories that's why we did not get a lot of jap rpg's (which are some of the greatest game's ever) The key is making people feel involved in the story and make them want to continue... I've looked at allmost all the game's on this site and with the exception of a small few (and I mean this in the most respectfull way) most, do not pull this off. I think you guy's are truly gonna be blown away with my game(I know everybody say's that) I will not give the name just be on the look out for sabbth's game. May the force be with you my rpg brother's and sister's!!!!!
Jabbo
140
author=sabbath link=topic=1340.msg21676#msg21676 date=1214411825
I think you guy's are truly gonna be blown away with my game.
Never say that. Not to be mean or anything, but I've automatically already assumed that your game will be meaningless, worthless tripe.
Having a good, solid story is enough; you don't need to have a ridiculously super-awesome ultimate end-all, be-all everything story. Also, if story is the only thing you care about, then you probably won't be able to create good gameplay (Game or a Move? Movie!).
sabbath
0
That may be true in most cases but i'm not most guy's. and I did not say I only care about story, but that is the main thing.and if you don't belive that, the best you can be is a hero... I want to become a legend, and to do that you have to have story, story, story!!! And I promise you will feel bad comparing my game to worthless tripe. Just remember Sabbath!
sabbath
0
but I do agree I should not tell people how good my game is,Because no matter how excellent I think it's going to be, It's only as good as the people that play it say it is. But trust me bro it's not worthless tripe.
S. F. LaValle
1069
author=sabbath link=topic=1340.msg21778#msg21778 date=1214448126
That may be true in most cases but i'm not most guy's. and I did not say I only care about story, but that is the main thing.and if you don't belive that, the best you can be is a hero... I want to become a legend, and to do that you have to have story, story, story!!! And I promise you will feel bad comparing my game to worthless tripe. Just remember Sabbath!
You're either joking, or this is the most ironic statement I've ever heard.
Seriously, this epitomizes what the topic is all about. Feel free to strive to be a legend, but don't feel bad if no one enjoys your game.
EDIT: I just had to note, I'm surprised your spelling is decent considering the absolutely terrible grammar and syntax. I assume English is not your first language? I hope you have someone help you with the translation, because your game doesn't stand a chance if that is how it's gonna look!
sabbath
0
first off i'm tryn to type real fast right now , that's why my grammer sux, but how are you gonna judge something you have never seen man! and that hero legend stuff... ofcourse im joking bro but im new so I should not expect you to know that.
hope no love lost man, good luck with your game and may the force be with you!
hope no love lost man, good luck with your game and may the force be with you!
demondestiny
889
author=sabbath link=topic=1340.msg21676#msg21676 date=1214411825
I think you guy's are truly gonna be blown away with my game
You seem to be very confident about this so i hope your right. I look forward to playing it and getting "blown away" by it.
Shadowtext
120
To be fair to this guy, sheer bloody minded determination is enough to make up for any deficiency in skill or knowledge. Maybe he can do it!
But the passion has to be there throughout. It can't waver like it does for....well, everyone else in the history of time. You've really got to surpass the impossible and kick reason to the curb here, buddy.
But the passion has to be there throughout. It can't waver like it does for....well, everyone else in the history of time. You've really got to surpass the impossible and kick reason to the curb here, buddy.
maia
737
People have always loved and played my games despite no new graphics or scripts. Just make your game fun and that will make up for it.
