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HOW DO YOU DESIGN A GOOD PUZZLES?
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meisam
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CloseI hope i chose a good place for posting this
You know, I wanted to add my first puzzle in the game, and i suddenly can't move on, I am sitting on my chair for 18 hour, reading articles about puzzles, searching for good examples, and finally when i decide what should i do, I find the puzzle too easy and meaningless, scraping the whole idea and starting over
I want to add puzzles that need thinking, so that when player solved the puzzle he feels he accomplished something, he feel he is smart. I want the puzzle to have logic, strategy.
Anyone have a hint? How do you come up with a good puzzle? How do you know that puzzle is hard enough?
You know, I wanted to add my first puzzle in the game, and i suddenly can't move on, I am sitting on my chair for 18 hour, reading articles about puzzles, searching for good examples, and finally when i decide what should i do, I find the puzzle too easy and meaningless, scraping the whole idea and starting over
I want to add puzzles that need thinking, so that when player solved the puzzle he feels he accomplished something, he feel he is smart. I want the puzzle to have logic, strategy.
Anyone have a hint? How do you come up with a good puzzle? How do you know that puzzle is hard enough?
thatbennyguy
1612
I wrote an article about it.
When you find an idea too meaningless, perhaps you haven't scratched the surface enough. Usually puzzle ideas come from a mixture of very simple ideas. Such as pushing boulders. Pushing boulders to make your way out of a maze is simple by itself. Doesn't mean it's meaningless, but it's very simple.
After that, what if when you stepped on a switch, then spikes went down/up? You could navigate your way through a maze of boulders while stepping on spike switches. That makes for a bit more complexity. You could probably do about 5 puzzles with various variations of this.
Then what if there was a function where you had a clone that moved at the same time as you? The combination of these 3 mechanics would prove for dozens of puzzles.
If you need help, mail me the project file, and I'll give you ideas about what's right and wrong.
When you find an idea too meaningless, perhaps you haven't scratched the surface enough. Usually puzzle ideas come from a mixture of very simple ideas. Such as pushing boulders. Pushing boulders to make your way out of a maze is simple by itself. Doesn't mean it's meaningless, but it's very simple.
After that, what if when you stepped on a switch, then spikes went down/up? You could navigate your way through a maze of boulders while stepping on spike switches. That makes for a bit more complexity. You could probably do about 5 puzzles with various variations of this.
Then what if there was a function where you had a clone that moved at the same time as you? The combination of these 3 mechanics would prove for dozens of puzzles.
If you need help, mail me the project file, and I'll give you ideas about what's right and wrong.
TheNecromancer
3160
the best puzzles make sense in the setting. use the mechanics of the game to build some puzzles on. like in Zelda, you can have hookshot. so it makes sense to have puzzles that revolve around using the hookshot like moving objects or crossing gaps.
if you have a good puzzle idea, like a puzzle where you push blocks, it would be good to add a system for pushing/pulling objects(like in Ocarina of Time). that way puzzles seem intuitive.
LoZ is full of good examples, and bad i guess.
if you have a good puzzle idea, like a puzzle where you push blocks, it would be good to add a system for pushing/pulling objects(like in Ocarina of Time). that way puzzles seem intuitive.
LoZ is full of good examples, and bad i guess.
@thatbenyguy: I did read your article before posting here, and i learned a lot. I probably didn't understand, the mixing mechanic part :).
@Link_2112: Yes you are right, a puzzle need to use what an actor can use in other situations.
The idea behind my game is that player choice, increase a main parameter. For example if player chose to fight in a multichoice event, his attack stat will raise.
here's an example of one of my quests
This is the situation, it is a mine, player can chose to solve the puzzle and then he can ride a mine cart and skip everything to the boss, however he can't solve the puzzle if he dose not have enough perception (perception is a stat that only increase through player choice) and will be force to walk. if he walk there is 3 ways, he can still walk directly to the boss through the main route, or he can find a hidden natural cave (a maze) to surprise the boss (this will increase his agility). or he can explore all side routes to kill the boss henchmans (disabling boss reinforce ability).
Now boss will react to the player choices. In beginning of fight there will be dialogue choices, different stat and what player did in the mine, determine how successful a dialog choice will be. and give bonus to player in fight, if you don't have the required stats, or say something that you didn't perform, boss get bonus.
I don't want to force a player to solve any puzzle, or walk through any maze, any situation should have multiple solution. At the same time, if he don't like to solve puzzles he must fight better. Somehow the game will be a complete puzzle with different solutions.
what do you think about the whole idea
@Link_2112: Yes you are right, a puzzle need to use what an actor can use in other situations.
The idea behind my game is that player choice, increase a main parameter. For example if player chose to fight in a multichoice event, his attack stat will raise.
here's an example of one of my quests
This is the situation, it is a mine, player can chose to solve the puzzle and then he can ride a mine cart and skip everything to the boss, however he can't solve the puzzle if he dose not have enough perception (perception is a stat that only increase through player choice) and will be force to walk. if he walk there is 3 ways, he can still walk directly to the boss through the main route, or he can find a hidden natural cave (a maze) to surprise the boss (this will increase his agility). or he can explore all side routes to kill the boss henchmans (disabling boss reinforce ability).
Now boss will react to the player choices. In beginning of fight there will be dialogue choices, different stat and what player did in the mine, determine how successful a dialog choice will be. and give bonus to player in fight, if you don't have the required stats, or say something that you didn't perform, boss get bonus.
I don't want to force a player to solve any puzzle, or walk through any maze, any situation should have multiple solution. At the same time, if he don't like to solve puzzles he must fight better. Somehow the game will be a complete puzzle with different solutions.
what do you think about the whole idea
Xenomic
1752
I wish I was better at puzzles...they do seem hard to make as opposed to coming up with ideas for them for every dungeon (and well...sometimes some ideas are better left alone...^^;; ). I do agree that having the puzzles fit with how the actor can respond in other situations is a viable solution. I...honestly have little to none in terms of puzzles now that I think about it. @_@;
Cinderblock
10
author=meisam
@thatbenyguy: I did read your article before posting here, and i learned a lot. I probably didn't understand, the mixing mechanic part :).
@Link_2112: Yes you are right, a puzzle need to use what an actor can use in other situations.
The idea behind my game is that player choice, increase a main parameter. For example if player chose to fight in a multichoice event, his attack stat will raise.
here's an example of one of my quests
This is the situation, it is a mine, player can chose to solve the puzzle and then he can ride a mine cart and skip everything to the boss, however he can't solve the puzzle if he dose not have enough perception (perception is a stat that only increase through player choice) and will be force to walk. if he walk there is 3 ways, he can still walk directly to the boss through the main route, or he can find a hidden natural cave (a maze) to surprise the boss (this will increase his agility). or he can explore all side routes to kill the boss henchmans (disabling boss reinforce ability).
Now boss will react to the player choices. In beginning of fight there will be dialogue choices, different stat and what player did in the mine, determine how successful a dialog choice will be. and give bonus to player in fight, if you don't have the required stats, or say something that you didn't perform, boss get bonus.
I don't want to force a player to solve any puzzle, or walk through any maze, any situation should have multiple solution. At the same time, if he don't like to solve puzzles he must fight better. Somehow the game will be a complete puzzle with different solutions.
what do you think about the whole idea
I like this idea a lot. Its interesting, but what are you going to do with the increased stats?
The thing about puzzles is that most of them take a while to refine through testing. I believe I read this on a site somewhere.
It's an interesting idea to have a player-defined stat which determines whether you can solve a puzzle, but be careful not to make that too arbitrary; you may end up with a player who actually wants to solve the puzzle but can't because they didn't realise your perception stat was that important.
If a puzzle dose not have bugs and its only too hard, he can chose the other way around, its role play after all, player chose how he want to remove different obstacle in his path (defensive, offensive, dodgy or even talkative)
Trihan, I covered that too, he can always come back later, when he have higher stats, but if he want to solve something he should work for it, a mindless berserker can't fix a complicated machine. except if he change his way's and try to improve his weakness, but it also means he can't improve his strong points.
It also increase replayability. I was a brute in my last play, so lets become a mage.
What i have in my mind is that the world around the player respond to player behavior and choices. It's quite a risk for my first game and it need a lot of balancing, but i think i can manage that.
STR and MAT determine if you can remove hard obstacles, also determine melee damage and magic damage (ice block, boulders both way works)
Def and Mdef, determine if you can endure harsh environment, also determine how much damage you receive. (too cold, too hot area)
Precision (agility) determine if you can find secret path, also determine critical rate. (probably i should make this stat fixed as well).
perception (LUK) determine if you can find and fix broken switches. also determine success of status effect. (perception is a fixed stat and only increase through dialogue choices).
every stat have some use in dialogs choices as well, though it need more planning to look logical.
Trihan, I covered that too, he can always come back later, when he have higher stats, but if he want to solve something he should work for it, a mindless berserker can't fix a complicated machine. except if he change his way's and try to improve his weakness, but it also means he can't improve his strong points.
It also increase replayability. I was a brute in my last play, so lets become a mage.
What i have in my mind is that the world around the player respond to player behavior and choices. It's quite a risk for my first game and it need a lot of balancing, but i think i can manage that.
STR and MAT determine if you can remove hard obstacles, also determine melee damage and magic damage (ice block, boulders both way works)
Def and Mdef, determine if you can endure harsh environment, also determine how much damage you receive. (too cold, too hot area)
Precision (agility) determine if you can find secret path, also determine critical rate. (probably i should make this stat fixed as well).
perception (LUK) determine if you can find and fix broken switches. also determine success of status effect. (perception is a fixed stat and only increase through dialogue choices).
every stat have some use in dialogs choices as well, though it need more planning to look logical.
I have a somewhat similar idea for Tundra actually, though maybe not to such an extent. My main mechanic concept right now is that because the world is freezing and you have a finite amount of time to save it, puzzle areas will eventually freeze over and cause the puzzles to become more about dealing with sliding things and ice instead of what they originally were.
Trihan so if the player reach a particular area faster, he have a easier puzzle? or completely different puzzle
oh, that's quite interesting, do you mind if i steal the concept? :P
example:
I killed a ice elemental in a cave the obstacle were ice blocks and sliding , later when i come back to that cave i must deal with waters and streams.
more complex: In a volcano cave (with magma) i killed the fire demon, i have a choice to let a ice elemental know about this and receive a prize or not telling him, if i don't tell him the cave become a regular cave, if i tell him, the cave become a ice cave
example:
I killed a ice elemental in a cave the obstacle were ice blocks and sliding , later when i come back to that cave i must deal with waters and streams.
more complex: In a volcano cave (with magma) i killed the fire demon, i have a choice to let a ice elemental know about this and receive a prize or not telling him, if i don't tell him the cave become a regular cave, if i tell him, the cave become a ice cave
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