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NewBlack
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CloseBottom left head is a lot closer to correct than the one on the right (whose eyes are too high up the head).
Keep at it. I see that you're trying to learn the structural stuff behind this so I'll say this: try to make sure you're relating what you learn to things you can observe in reality or other (well made) art (the eye/brow/nose line thing is that way because that's close to how things really are on real humans, not just as some annoying art rule to try and follow/hamfist into your drawing process). That way your mind will have a referent for why this stuff matters and makes sense - that way it will become internalized rather than seeming like arbitrary rules to adhere to in order to "mak stuff good".
But yeah if you keep at it (and think about why things work/don't work) then things will start to click.
Keep at it. I see that you're trying to learn the structural stuff behind this so I'll say this: try to make sure you're relating what you learn to things you can observe in reality or other (well made) art (the eye/brow/nose line thing is that way because that's close to how things really are on real humans, not just as some annoying art rule to try and follow/hamfist into your drawing process). That way your mind will have a referent for why this stuff matters and makes sense - that way it will become internalized rather than seeming like arbitrary rules to adhere to in order to "mak stuff good".
But yeah if you keep at it (and think about why things work/don't work) then things will start to click.
Xenomic
1752
Aye, I know that about the lines lol. This is a more complicated version of the head stuff I was using prior from Mark Crilley, but I feel like this works a lot better. The axis for the eye line, which you might be able to see, I don't know if that was the right placement for the eyes or not. It's...in the center of the axis of the ovals so I figured that's where the eyes were supposed to go...but maybe the eyes go a bit lower below that line that line is meant for the eyebrows???).
My main issue right now is that I'm working with three specific characters, all from Fire Emblem: Awakening (Tiki, Nowi, and Nah), and 2 of the 3 are childlike in body, while the third is an adult. So I'm not sure how to differentiate between a child's body/head and an adult's body/head (Nowi and Nah are more childlike than Tiki here). So it's quite a predicament. That, and that chin...I cannot for the life of me seem to get the right curve on it to make it look...like a feminine chin! >_<
My main issue right now is that I'm working with three specific characters, all from Fire Emblem: Awakening (Tiki, Nowi, and Nah), and 2 of the 3 are childlike in body, while the third is an adult. So I'm not sure how to differentiate between a child's body/head and an adult's body/head (Nowi and Nah are more childlike than Tiki here). So it's quite a predicament. That, and that chin...I cannot for the life of me seem to get the right curve on it to make it look...like a feminine chin! >_<
Placing stuff on the lines is irrelevant when the rest of the size/shape of the head is throwing them out of place in relative terms. There's far too much else everything below the eyes and not enough forehead/scalp area above the eyes - making the eyes look too high. You have to get the oval/rest of the head right too.
Children's heads are rounder, shorter, generally less long and more compact with the eyes taking up more space on the head? In anime style art (which I don't do but here goes an attempt at advice anyway..) feminine chins seem to come to a point (more often and more gently than males, at least unless they're a more feminine looking guy or the artist went with a style that gives everyone that look) after a sloping curve (rather than a more angular masculine look)
Edit: as for bodies, adult bodies tend to be between 7 and 9 heads high whereas children can be much fewer heads high depending on age/build etc. (try measuring using the head as a unit from the original concept art to see how tall they are?) also men have much broader/squarer shoulders than women (generally speaking) and children even slimmer-shouldered still.
(see: your own avatar - that's what I meant about linking what you're learning to other art/reality :V)
Children's heads are rounder, shorter, generally less long and more compact with the eyes taking up more space on the head? In anime style art (which I don't do but here goes an attempt at advice anyway..) feminine chins seem to come to a point (more often and more gently than males, at least unless they're a more feminine looking guy or the artist went with a style that gives everyone that look) after a sloping curve (rather than a more angular masculine look)
Edit: as for bodies, adult bodies tend to be between 7 and 9 heads high whereas children can be much fewer heads high depending on age/build etc. (try measuring using the head as a unit from the original concept art to see how tall they are?) also men have much broader/squarer shoulders than women (generally speaking) and children even slimmer-shouldered still.
(see: your own avatar - that's what I meant about linking what you're learning to other art/reality :V)
Xenomic
1752
I suppose that is true. I tried to place the nose halfway between the eyes and chin, and then the mouth halfway from the nose and chin. Looking at the Nowi image, the eyes ARE too high (how did THAT happen??), but it seems like the nose and mouth are in the right spot?? Maybe it's because I'm getting the oval wrong in the end as I'm not going 2/3rds of the way up/down the head for the edges??
Hmm...yeah, I tried that initially before these art practices (think I showed some of them earlier in the thread?), but I just got yelled at for not knowing basic fundamentals and thus got thrown way back into doing these exercises. ^^;;
Hmm...that is something I should look into aye. Dunno why I didn't think of doing that with the concept arts to see how tall they would be. >_<;;
I did try to use Mark Crilley's tutorial on bodies but it didn't pan out for me (probably because I can't do anything past the head yet...).
Hmm...yeah, I tried that initially before these art practices (think I showed some of them earlier in the thread?), but I just got yelled at for not knowing basic fundamentals and thus got thrown way back into doing these exercises. ^^;;
Hmm...that is something I should look into aye. Dunno why I didn't think of doing that with the concept arts to see how tall they would be. >_<;;
I did try to use Mark Crilley's tutorial on bodies but it didn't pan out for me (probably because I can't do anything past the head yet...).
I think the head shape is wrong yes.
Fundamentals are important to know but only insofar as you can use them to interpret how things "really work" and apply it to art. The best advice I could give overall would be that if you're gonna learn theory stuff you need to be looking at other art/reality/reference to see how it relates to it :3 combine the two and use your eyes and brain to see how it fits together. Don't give up your independent figuring-stuff-out-for-yourself totally in favor of tutorial/construction stuff, you have to apply them together. etc etc
Fundamentals are important to know but only insofar as you can use them to interpret how things "really work" and apply it to art. The best advice I could give overall would be that if you're gonna learn theory stuff you need to be looking at other art/reality/reference to see how it relates to it :3 combine the two and use your eyes and brain to see how it fits together. Don't give up your independent figuring-stuff-out-for-yourself totally in favor of tutorial/construction stuff, you have to apply them together. etc etc
Xenomic
1752
Well, I gave it another attempt to see how it would work (found out that the distance between the eyes and nose = distance between nose and chin, so THAT will help a lot with getting the chin right). The other issue, which a couple other people have pointed out, is that I seem to be stuck between the anime/manga style and realistic style, and I'm not sure how to deal with that. On one hand, I'm aiming for anime/manga, but on the other hand, I'm trying to keep in style with Fire Emblem: Awakening's artstyle as that's what got me back into doing art in the first place...
Typically, you need to know how skulls work, but I'll try to give you a rough guide. I can't explain stuff since I'm an observer and just apply than someone who knows the technical stuff.
A super simple guide to drawing heads:
Then proceed to butcher with random details
A super simple guide to drawing heads:
Then proceed to butcher with random details
And a dpost since my previous post is crazy long. i half assed the lower part so ignore that <_<
Here's how circles are applied:
Here's how circles are applied:
Xenomic
1752
@1st post: Hmm...interesting way you do that. I wonder if I shouldn't show my steps? Of course, I can't do things with a mouse worth a lick but maybe I can attempt to show it off anyways?? Might help others understand what I'm trying to do aside from my terrible lack of doing perfect circles lol. I think my main issue with the head, aside from getting the curves just right, is that I can't get the lines to stay straight when I do the axises, nor can I keep the eyes correctly placed. I dunno...I put them on, and then do the one eye width thing, but it still seems off with the 2nd eye. @_@;;
Like, I know how to do the nose, mouth, and necklines for the most part. I CAN do the head albeit with some issues with perfect circles, and I CAN do the cheeks to jawlines (to a degree). But...I dunno. There's something off still with my drawing and I can't figure out what it is that I'm doing wrong. Quite irritating, that it is.
@2nd post: Huh...that's an interesting way of doing that. I always had trouble getting the shoulders and torso looking right in any of the art I did, so it always ended up looking bad. So I went back to working on heads, and my heads still look bad lol. x_x;; Eventually, I'll get around to working with wire frames for the full body as such.
Like, I know how to do the nose, mouth, and necklines for the most part. I CAN do the head albeit with some issues with perfect circles, and I CAN do the cheeks to jawlines (to a degree). But...I dunno. There's something off still with my drawing and I can't figure out what it is that I'm doing wrong. Quite irritating, that it is.
@2nd post: Huh...that's an interesting way of doing that. I always had trouble getting the shoulders and torso looking right in any of the art I did, so it always ended up looking bad. So I went back to working on heads, and my heads still look bad lol. x_x;; Eventually, I'll get around to working with wire frames for the full body as such.
author=XenomicYou don't have to. An experience artist can see where you're trying to go at.
@1st post: Hmm...interesting way you do that. I wonder if I shouldn't show my steps?
author=Xenomicyou don't have to do perfect circles, I only used the circle tool to show my point because I can't be arsed to draw a circle right now. Just observe how a skull works >_>
stuff
Also, what's wrong with your drawings is that they're all loopsided. That is WHY I gave you that guideline in the first place. Draw a straight line (use a ruler or something if you have to), learn how to use it
Anyway that's that. Drawing is all about ~shapes~ not lines or finding placement. It's knowing how they work.
I think the general issue that I can see right now is that your head is incredibly lopsided and everything else will look off until you fix that...the final artwork is built up on a good sketch after all. :O
Also it looks like you're trying to draw each thing with a single continuous line that you're dragging along and that's why it's wobbly as hell. Seriously that is not the way to draw anything at all. Quick smooth strokes! multiple attempts! iterate until good. You're not a printer, take the pencil off the page some more. In the sketching phase it's totally fine to make a series of increasingly accurate approximations until you end up with something that looks right, you don't have to one-shot it, that's never going to happen.
Xenomic
1752
@Archeia: Hm...yeah, I've heard that a lot about them being lopsided. I guess it's mostly due to my inability to make those straight lines from the axis, and the placement of that oval (oval is supposed to be 2/3rds of the way up/down on the sides where it's placed. I don't have a ruler handy to check these so I have to judge where the 2/3rds marks are). Eyes always end up weird looking too because for some reason I cannot duplicate them correctly despite how hard I try. x_x;;
@Marimo: Wow...looking at that that really IS super lopsided. At least the eyebrows are parallel? >_>;; But seriously, I don't get why I'm as lopsided as I am. @_@;;
@NewBlack: I try to do my circles as such aye. I don't try to draw quickly as I generally have this idea in my head that it'll look terrible if I go quick. I also have this OCDness in me to get things right on the first try for the most part, which I've never been able to get rid of. ^^;;
@Marimo: Wow...looking at that that really IS super lopsided. At least the eyebrows are parallel? >_>;; But seriously, I don't get why I'm as lopsided as I am. @_@;;
@NewBlack: I try to do my circles as such aye. I don't try to draw quickly as I generally have this idea in my head that it'll look terrible if I go quick. I also have this OCDness in me to get things right on the first try for the most part, which I've never been able to get rid of. ^^;;
Xenomic
1752
2-3 hours I spent wasting paper to try and get circles to not look lopsided, and trying to get faces to not look lopsided. This is about the best I could get with faces after 2-3 hours...and even then something seems off. I don't know...maybe I should just give it up? It's quite frustrating to say the least. Ugh...I tried to avoid adding any realism to them, though the nose on the second image is realistic. >_>
I wasn't really just giving polite suggestions as a matter of pure opinion (and I don't think Nessiah and Marimo were either). I was saying, as a matter of fact, that unless you stop doing things the way you currently are then you will actually never get better in any significant way. There's not much folk can do if you dismiss their input as "ah! lol well I do it my way" despite them knowing exactly why you're having trouble when you admit yourself that you have no idea.
There's a saying, you can't break the rules unless you know them.
You can't stylize human anatomy if you don't know how to draw it.
Learn that first THEN go do whatever you want to do with your own thing.
I wish you luck in your future endeavors.
You can't stylize human anatomy if you don't know how to draw it.
Learn that first THEN go do whatever you want to do with your own thing.
I wish you luck in your future endeavors.
Xenomic
1752
author=NewBlack
I wasn't really just giving polite suggestions as a matter of pure opinion (and I don't think Nessiah and Marimo were either). I was saying, as a matter of fact, that unless you stop doing things the way you currently are then you will actually never get better in any significant way. There's not much folk can do if you dismiss their input as "ah! lol well I do it my way" despite them knowing exactly why you're having trouble when you admit yourself that you have no idea.
I know. From what I'm seeing as well from what I can tell judging from the 6 hours of drawing I did today, I need to A) Not try and do my circles in one go. I may have to do some, then let up and then do more and then keep at it until I get my circle, and B) Learn the placement of the facial details more. I've had a couple guides also given to me outside of what you guys did too.
This one in particular was done earlier today by someone showing me things too (both in a more realistic style and anime style. Red being more realistic, blue being more anime/mangaish). Although I don't know how to do that curving part on the 3/4 view near the eyes (never have actually). Also doesn't help that with the eyes, I was told by some people that in anime/manga style, the eyes could rest on that top line when in fact it's meant ONLY for the eyebrows so...that kinda messed things up a bit. Also, I don't know what it is, but it also seems I cannot get that "one eye" width between the two eyes too.
I know the ears start at the top of the eyes, and end at about the bottom of the nose, so dunno why I was screwing that up with these ears (I don't with human ears for some reason, unless it's on the 3/4 view). And of course that jaw, because I cannot do jaws worth a lick especially for females. Maybe I don't have the curve to do it? T-T
I also got this one from an artist friend of mine (and how she handles doing her heads), which...seems like a rough way of doing it but effective I suppose?
I SHOULD have a drawing around here somewhere of what I did with a realistic face. If I don't have it uploaded anywhere I'll scan that and show you guys that one I suppose.
EDIT - Ah, here you go.
Keep in mind that this is about 3 weeks old, and yes the errors are still present here. But that's not the main point really. Somehow though, I feel like I did a better job with the chin here than I do now...
Xenomic
1752
Oh me oh my~ *Dusts off topic* Been half a year? A bit long eh? Well, I've only recently started picking up spriting yet again (nothing on art since last time, since well....no motivation to do that still). Why now? Because I'm doing a little request for someone at the current time, in exchange for something, on DA.
It's just a head for now, and uses Mei-Fang (if you can't tell) as the base for that. Mei-Fang actually is a good reference for this character's height (only 1 inch shorter than this character), though having a bit of issues sorting out how the shoulders/arm should go. Once I get past that, the rest should be fairly simple to do, as the character's design is pretty basic. Pretty Ada Wong-ish actually.
The requester's character in question:
So yeah! Just throwing this out there, since it's SOMETHING I suppose. *shrugs*
It's just a head for now, and uses Mei-Fang (if you can't tell) as the base for that. Mei-Fang actually is a good reference for this character's height (only 1 inch shorter than this character), though having a bit of issues sorting out how the shoulders/arm should go. Once I get past that, the rest should be fairly simple to do, as the character's design is pretty basic. Pretty Ada Wong-ish actually.
The requester's character in question:
So yeah! Just throwing this out there, since it's SOMETHING I suppose. *shrugs*
Xenomic
1752
Still a rough draft. I've always had issues with legs and arms, so the arms being off is no surprise. Not sure how to handle the back nor butt, since I'm also not used to skin-tight anything (nor did I ever really dabble with the torso much in any of my art-related things). Once I get the rough draft of the arms/hands/legs done, I should be able to tidy up the rest of this. I think...just trying to get this done as quickly and efficiently as possible without making it look too bad for the person it's being made for. Who knows? Maybe after I finish Lynn here, I'll go back and actually finish that Lenna I was working on last year. ^^;;
Xenomic
1752
Update to the first version. I think the back turned out nicely, and the breasts are finally situated (I think), both thanks to using Jam as a reference. But help! How to do arms and hands!? Even with using Jam for the left arm (Lynn's right arm), I don't think it turned out the way it's supposed to be. And I don't know if the butt is right too...may have to use Mei-Fang more for that...but that arm/hand! It's terrible looking right now! >_<
