RMN is for games. Topic :: rpgmaker.net

RMN's wet blanket

2875

08/22/2013 04:41 PM

author=Muninn
There might not be any choices, but that isn't really a requirement for traditional visual novels either...

Ah, the good ol' "But, visual novels!" argument. I don't even know why visual novels without any gameplay elements are still considered videogames. I mean, who decided this? It makes no sense! Those are not more a videogame than a PowerPoint presentation, and engage the audience in no different way than other narrative-oriented mediums would do, so what's the point? For that matter we may as well start allowing a little bit of everything... No gameplay = out. That's what I think.

One thing I'm uneasy about, is that in the off-chance of any of this actually becoming policy, it would be kind of dick-ish to grand-father the rule: "Woops! Turns out you're not welcome here after all. Bye!". But you know, for future instances, I'd be cool with things being more strict, even for rpg maker games. (I'm always a fan of raising the bar just a little more)

I don't think we should be hosting games that require you to illegally download other games in order to play them.

Except it doesn't "require" you to download the game. If you own the cartridge you can dump the rom yourself using a copier. In fact, as far as I know, it's not even illegal to download roms, but is illegal is to upload them (God bless technicalities, eh?). Since it is legal to backup games you legally own, how you come with that backup doesn't really matter. (?)

Travio

149

08/22/2013 05:44 PM

author=alterego
No gameplay = out. That's what I think.

Gameplay is a pretty broad term, though. One could argue the gameplay in visual novels is the choices and multiple story paths provided by the novel - and they wouldn't really be wrong. It might not be overly compelling, but it's still possible to define it as gameplay.

Even game designers can't, truthfully, decide on what the definition of gameplay is, so that's not the greatest way to make a definition of what's acceptable.

TheNecromancer

3160

08/22/2013 06:13 PM

author=slashphoenix
How many Super Mario Bros. X games does this site have..?

That's an engine, so it doesn't apply to this situation. It emulates the physics of Super Mario and uses Mario graphics as RTP, it's not a hacked up copy of a Mario World ROM. There's no existing content, you have to make everything from scratch.

alterego

RMN's wet blanket

2875

08/22/2013 06:19 PM

author=Travio
Gameplay is a pretty broad term, though...

True. I'm fine with Visual novels/Text adventures having multiple choices as a form of gameplay. I'm also Ok with "exploration" games, since at least you can decide where to go, what to examine, etc... I'm talking about those games are just "Press enter to keep watching/reading" that's just marginally different than watching a video and pausing every so often. xD

Sailerius

did someone say angels

3214

08/22/2013 06:23 PM

author=alterego
author=Travio
Gameplay is a pretty broad term, though...
True. I'm fine with Visual novels/Text adventures having multiple choices as a form of gameplay. I'm also Ok with "exploration" games, since at least you can decide where to go, what to examine, etc... I'm talking about those games are just "Press enter to keep watching/reading" that's just marginally different than watching a video and pausing every so often. xD

The visual novel community actually uses the term "kinetic novel" to refer to works like that, which are distinguished as not being games.

ubon

66

08/22/2013 07:08 PM

I think that the discussion about legality is much more interesting than the weird pedantry that makes up most of this thread. congratulations, you've found a word that describes this work that isn't 'game'! you've brought your own personal definition of what a game is to the table! congratulations! now, where are you going with this? nowhere? oh um

e: and on that note, I thought that since 2k3's RTP is bundled in with the game installer (and doesn't seem to have a discreet installer of its own from what I've googled) you actually are required to download the whole package to play a 2k3 game? I'm pretty far out of the loop when it comes to 2k3, though, so correct the hell outta me.

kentona

Bunnyhug

21027

08/22/2013 08:54 PM

I am going to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say that romhacks and mods are not allowed on RMN. Sorry.

Darken

3952

08/23/2013 01:10 AM

There is an entire rom-hacking community to host them anyway.

Archeia_Nessiah

Tear Harvester Nessiah

17368

08/23/2013 01:30 AM

Rm2k3 RTP can be downloaded on the Famitsu site.

Archeia_Nessiah

Tear Harvester Nessiah

17368

08/23/2013 01:33 AM

--cancel

Puddor

if squallbutts was a misao category i'd win every damn year

5702

08/23/2013 02:54 PM

why are we still discussing the whole 'is this a game? does this count as a game?' crapola? it's old and really do any of us care?

my teacher put it pretty accurately in that our term for 'game' i.e pre-dating the modernistic invention of 'vidyagams' doesn't fit what makes a videogame, necessarily.

So some videogames =/= games, but that doesn't change the fact they're videogames. DEAR ESTHER IS A VIDEOGAME HOLY SHIT MINDBLOWN ERRYBODY EXIT STAGE LEFT

god damn I am sick of this argument

also: rpgmaker games that have the same systems aren't the same as a barely-edited romhack with a script change being its only feature. Because RPG Maker is an engine, which is legal to edit provided you have a license (let's pretend we all do) somebody can release 10,000 shit games with the same unedited system and poorly mapped graphics without issues or a question of legality. Doesn't mean any of us are going to LIKE them, though. Romhacks and mods aren't engine-based development, which is RMN's core developer demographic and target. Romhacks and mods have their place in the developer community and some of them are excellent, but that place is not here.

SMBX: I am not sure if this is a hack or an engine but I recall looking at it at some stage briefly and I think it's an engine even if it does have the same base as SMB games. The later point pretty much confirms its validity.

LockeZ

I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.

5958

08/23/2013 04:07 PM

Kyrsty I don't think anyone was arguing "is it a game" in that sense; I mean if Chrono Trigger is a game then a slightly different version of Chrono Trigger is still a game. The question was whether the person submitting the romhack made a game, or used one that already existed.

Was it a silly argument? Yeah. But it was a different silly argument than the more typical silly arguments of IS A HENTAI DATING SIM CONSIDERED A GAME IF THE ONLY CHOICE YOU MAKE IS NEW GAME VS. CONTINUE??? IT SHOULD COUNT BECAUSE YOU ARE PLAYING WITH YOURSELF!!!

alterego

RMN's wet blanket

2875

08/23/2013 05:18 PM

I am (not) going to draw an arbitrary line in the sand and say that romhacks and mods are not allowed on RMN. Sorry.

Heh; Why I'm not surprised? ...Just FYI, there's nothing "arbitrary" about this. No one is asking you to roll a dice to decide. The distinctions are clear and have been backed up with arguments, and pretty much anyone on this thread can concede to it. Also, enforcing it wouldn't be more difficult than any of the other "arbitrary" lines that are already in place regarding gameprofiles. =P

some videogames =/= games, but that doesn't change the fact they're videogames.

What is the logic of that? What magic process transforms something that is not a game into a videogame? Simply being on a screen? ...A game, no matter the form of delivery, is something that you can interact with - something that gives you control, and that gives you a goal. This is true even for Tag or Pong, so anything short of that should really not be considered a (X)game.

Edit: So apparently I misquoted Kentona? Welp! That's a first... xP

LockeZ

I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.

5958

08/24/2013 02:28 AM

A lot of things people would consider video games don't give you goals, oddly.

Flight sims are an obvious one, but SimCity and Animal Crossing are more obvious examples. In fact, "sandbox games" are an entire genre.

Technically, these are not games. They are toys.

But in the vernacular, they're still video games.

TheNecromancer

3160

08/24/2013 04:55 AM

Whut? The goal of Simcity is to build and run a city. That's the game.

alterego

RMN's wet blanket

2875

08/24/2013 08:16 AM

Even keeping a score is a kind of goal. For those old games that were essentially unbeatable, you still wanted to get the highest score possible to brag about with your friends, and you depended on your skills to achieve that. In games like Grand Theft Auto (only 'sandbox' game I'm familiar with) you probably want to get the highest criminal ratting, or collect all hidden stuff, or simply beat the story mode of the game, etc. So, it is not like there is no goal, but rather that there are multiple intrinsic goals.

Now, before anyone twist my words. xD Modern technology has managed to blur the lines between mediums a good deal. Someone could say the goal of a movie is to watch it from beginning to end, or that you can exercise some control over it by rewinding, skipping, etc. But you'd be hard pressed to call a movie a game - When talking about mediums, there's only so much you can subtract (or add, for that matter) before they cross over the edge... Others definitions such as "game" and "toy" can coexist because they operate at different levels. For example, a game can also become a "sport", or a "job", but in principle it remains a "game".

Decky