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Jabbo
140
Jabbo
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CloseSorry, my fault, I somehow missed the paragraph after your three questions (was it really there the whole time?), so the whole FF7/FF8 thing seemed completely irrelevant. Plus, you still need to clarify what you mean by "a fan of pacing." But yeah I'll leave your thread alone now that I've achieved personal RPG enlightenment.
sabbath
0
Don't say of course like it's a given dragon lord. the fact is most Americans don't like pacing: ( Why do you think we don't get a lot of the jap rpg's. and get all this Halo, and god or war crap.
sabbath
0
no jabbo it was not up there the whole time. You see, I make my game on my computer(does not have Internet) and I use my dads ( who is an #$@hole) when he let's me. so that's why I'm short with some of my stuff I write. And to clarify, Pacing is where the story is real slow allowing player's to get to know the character's before the big stuff happens aka FF8. FF7 is an example of a game that throws you in to the drama and you have not gotten to know the character's. and that's also the reason I asked FF7 or FF8, because that tells me exactly what type of gamer you are...There is a method to my madness bro!!! I will be the first one on this topic to say ff8.
Ps. to everybody else that gives there opinion, please don't say of course FF7.
FF8 is a great game and to me has a much more involving story.
Ps. to everybody else that gives there opinion, please don't say of course FF7.
FF8 is a great game and to me has a much more involving story.
S. F. LaValle
1069
author=sabbath link=topic=1407.msg22142#msg22142 date=1214625213
Don't say of course like it's a given dragon lord. the fact is most Americans don't like pacing. ( Why do you think we don't get a lot of the jap rpg's. and get all this Halo, and god or war crap.
Either you're not being very clear, or your perception of "pacing" is locked down to a very specific context. Dragon Lord isn't wrong with saying "of course," because you basically asked us if we are all like a fundamental element of ANY game, not just RPG's. It's the same as asking us all if we like music playing in our games. So don't target Dragon Lord for saying what we were all thinking.
You're right, Japanese stories are different from American stories. That doesn't mean that American games suck and Japanese games are great, that may just be your opinion. Halo and God of War are very good games for their own reasons, "pacing" has nothing to do with it, not even by your definition. You may simply be defining "pacing" as rich story sequences. What makes America different is our game design philosophies; American games don't focus on telling stories nearly as much as popular Japanese games do. That doesn't mean most Americans don't like story-rich games; those of us that do buy and play jRPG's, and that accounts for a lot of us here.
Finally, FFVII is universally liked better because it is more accessible in terms of gameplay; the materia system is less complicated than the junction system and doesn't require you to waste time in battles drawing magic. For those of you that feel this is true, that alone is probably enough to make you decide which game is better overall, without considering the story. If you want to compare stories, both games are pretty strong contenders. FF8 has much more fleshed-out characters than FF7 does, but FF7 certainly feels more epic to me. I feel FF8 was a clever love story with a bizarre supernatural conflict tacked on.
In this argument, which is my opinion, FF7 beats FF8 because it's MORE jRPG like, not because the action is in-your-face (I know I'm gonna catch hell for saying that, but let's face it, jRPG's just LOVE to explain how the world began and all that, and FF7 is no exception). People will disagree with me, even Americans, because every person on the planet is different. We don't represent the video game purchasing power in America.
Come, discuss this some more with us, accept that we're giving our opinions, and we'll get to the bottom of what people look for in games and why.
author=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=1407.msg21956#msg21956 date=1214527661I keep hearing this. It's not as much of an isolated case as you think, for people to like RPGs (or at least the concept of it), but not have time/patience to play a 30 hour long RPG or not like ones with slow pacing like we used to long time ago. I don't think I'm the only one who's trying to think of ways to make an RPG that's accessible to those who don't play videogames for 12 hours a day like we did when we were 6. I mean, I don't like it when the pacing is so fast that you feel like you don't have time to take a break, but sometimes it's pretty boring stuff that's taking up all of the time.
I dunno, it doesn't really seem like RPGs are for you in that case.
"You don't like levelling for 60 hours get out of here and play Mario instead!!"
(EDIT- I do like mario games though. Mario RPG is a good one, I like Mario and Luigi: Superstar saga too)
1) What is the most important part of an rpg to you and why?Fun, for obvious reasons. Different games achieve them in different ways. Sometimes the gameplay is okay but the story/characters is amazing. Sometimes the gameplay is great, and I don't mind that there's not much story (I.E. Secret of Mana).
2) Are you a fan of pacing?I like games with a kinda fast pace, yeah. I dunno what you're asking here.
3) and finally FF7 or FF8?They're pretty different. I'm tempted to say FF7 still, though I did enjoy FF8 with encounter-none on. With the exception of Midgar, I preferred FF8's setting to FF7's.
I keep hearing this. It's not as much of an isolated case as you think, for people to like RPGs (or at least the concept of it), but not have time/patience to play a 30 hour long RPG or not like ones with slow pacing like we used to long time ago. I don't think I'm the only one who's trying to think of ways to make an RPG that's accessible to those who don't play videogames for 12 hours a day like we did when we were 6. I mean, I don't like it when the pacing is so fast that you feel like you don't have time to take a break, but sometimes it's pretty boring stuff that's taking up all of the time.
Then...it doesn't sound like...an RPG is for you. Now the point really stands.
Blitzen
3253
Mog, that shouldn't be any kind of an attitude at all. "RPGs are supposed to be slow." What kind of idea is that? The conventions of the genre have little to do with pacing, and more about how you balance and advance your party or stats in order to progress. If you take a roguelike like Diablo II, you'll find that compared to other RPGs its a relatively quick play, and doesn't suffer from "have to sit and watch for 6 hours" syndrome.
Believe it or not, you can make RPGs exciting by learning about how to make compelling gameplay, and by condensing and simplifying the experience so that it doesn't reqire a 50 hour investment (more like a waste of time to me) more people will be able to get more out of your game in less time.
It sounds like you're saying "My gameplay is supposed to be sort of slow and uninspiring, because its an RPG." That's a horrible attitude to have, especially when we have the power to make our games in any way we please. Everyone, stop making excuses and start making your games fun.
In a word, that's what's important for the game. Fun. I liked FF8 better because I remember having more fun playing it. Why? Because the game was CHOCK FULL of interesting things to do, and the way it was achieved was relatively novel, much moreso than any of its predescessors. And I, like many other humans, find doing novel and interesting things stimulating. Some people may have found the story and characters more compelling, and well that depends on their tastes, but as a stand alone game (without all the emosquall story stuff) FF8 wasn't bad at all.
Good game design is something that can be applied anywhere and in new ways, so if you think that RPGs are somehow supposed to be slow, then I hope you learn more about why they don't have to be.
Believe it or not, you can make RPGs exciting by learning about how to make compelling gameplay, and by condensing and simplifying the experience so that it doesn't reqire a 50 hour investment (more like a waste of time to me) more people will be able to get more out of your game in less time.
It sounds like you're saying "My gameplay is supposed to be sort of slow and uninspiring, because its an RPG." That's a horrible attitude to have, especially when we have the power to make our games in any way we please. Everyone, stop making excuses and start making your games fun.
In a word, that's what's important for the game. Fun. I liked FF8 better because I remember having more fun playing it. Why? Because the game was CHOCK FULL of interesting things to do, and the way it was achieved was relatively novel, much moreso than any of its predescessors. And I, like many other humans, find doing novel and interesting things stimulating. Some people may have found the story and characters more compelling, and well that depends on their tastes, but as a stand alone game (without all the emosquall story stuff) FF8 wasn't bad at all.
Good game design is something that can be applied anywhere and in new ways, so if you think that RPGs are somehow supposed to be slow, then I hope you learn more about why they don't have to be.
sabbath
0
Your right I should have told you exactly what I meant by pacing.
It has noting to do with how long the game is. A perfect example is Earthbound, it is pretty long, but it has no pacing. reason!!! Because in earthbound you don't get to know your characters on a deep level your just thrown in to it... In all the FF lost odyssey etc you get to know your character's on a deep level and that's what I mean by pacing.
It has noting to do with how long the game is. A perfect example is Earthbound, it is pretty long, but it has no pacing. reason!!! Because in earthbound you don't get to know your characters on a deep level your just thrown in to it... In all the FF lost odyssey etc you get to know your character's on a deep level and that's what I mean by pacing.
Jabbo
140
I don't think pacing is really the word you're looking for... "pacing" describes how fast the game plays out. Fast-paced games will take you into battle faster, with shorter dungeons, fewer long battles, shorter everything.
Character depth doesn't have anything to do with pacing. Golden Sun, for example, plays out pretty slowly (slow or mid/slow-paced) and has almost no character depth. Earthbound goes probably mid/fast and also has even less character depth. Super Mario RPG is fast-paced and actually has good character depth (relative to what you'd expect from Mario, at least).
So the amount of time it takes to "get into it" isn't actually related to character depth.
In fact, it's not related to anything. I mean there's obviously a threshold on how fast, how slow, how short, or how long a game can be and still be good. But aside from that, I think you'll find that pacing/length and quality are completely unrelated.
Character depth doesn't have anything to do with pacing. Golden Sun, for example, plays out pretty slowly (slow or mid/slow-paced) and has almost no character depth. Earthbound goes probably mid/fast and also has even less character depth. Super Mario RPG is fast-paced and actually has good character depth (relative to what you'd expect from Mario, at least).
So the amount of time it takes to "get into it" isn't actually related to character depth.
In fact, it's not related to anything. I mean there's obviously a threshold on how fast, how slow, how short, or how long a game can be and still be good. But aside from that, I think you'll find that pacing/length and quality are completely unrelated.
author=Blitzen link=topic=1407.msg22177#msg22177 date=1214666632
Mog, that shouldn't be any kind of an attitude at all. "RPGs are supposed to be slow." What kind of idea is that? The conventions of the genre have little to do with pacing, and more about how you balance and advance your party or stats in order to progress. If you take a roguelike like Diablo II, you'll find that compared to other RPGs its a relatively quick play, and doesn't suffer from "have to sit and watch for 6 hours" syndrome.
Believe it or not, you can make RPGs exciting by learning about how to make compelling gameplay, and by condensing and simplifying the experience so that it doesn't reqire a 50 hour investment (more like a waste of time to me) more people will be able to get more out of your game in less time.
It sounds like you're saying "My gameplay is supposed to be sort of slow and uninspiring, because its an RPG." That's a horrible attitude to have, especially when we have the power to make our games in any way we please. Everyone, stop making excuses and start making your games fun.
In a word, that's what's important for the game. Fun. I liked FF8 better because I remember having more fun playing it. Why? Because the game was CHOCK FULL of interesting things to do, and the way it was achieved was relatively novel, much moreso than any of its predescessors. And I, like many other humans, find doing novel and interesting things stimulating. Some people may have found the story and characters more compelling, and well that depends on their tastes, but as a stand alone game (without all the emosquall story stuff) FF8 wasn't bad at all.
Good game design is something that can be applied anywhere and in new ways, so if you think that RPGs are somehow supposed to be slow, then I hope you learn more about why they don't have to be.
I never implied that RPG's are supposed to be slow.
Blitzen
3253
:-X I don't want to call you a liar, but you did in your response, imply that RPGs are slow, by saying "RPGs are not for you" to a person who has voiced a griped about what he sees as a laggy pacing and uninspiring gameplay in the genre. That is a fairly transparent implication.
Jabbo
140
Blah long post. Whatever, I have a lot to say.
I think I can see the point he's trying to make. RPGs are about stats and leveling up, and when you don't have the patience to gain experience and develop your characters, you're not an RPG person.
But in my case I love stats and leveling up. It's just that in a traditional "FIGHT/MAGIC/ITEM" system, it's just "Find out the enemy's weakness. Weigh whether or not it's worth it to use magic. Use magic if it's worth it. Heal when needed."
Now I'm capable of doing repetitive tasks in games and being happy with it. What I need, though, is some motivation other than just "Oh, I'm fighting for experience." Now I admit I'm crazy, but for me that's one of the following:
a) Nonrandom encounters. Motivation: Fighting to clean up the room.
b) Enemies I care about. I hate when enemies you've never been introduced to just pop up to fight. When someone makes a passing remark about "wolves on the prowl" before I fight wolves in regular battles, it means so much more to me. Also enemies that clearly fit into the environs work pretty well (e.g. crocodile in a swamp). Motivation: Fight because the atmosphere makes me happy.
c) Low numbers. Final Fantasy does not do this. But I absolutely love it when I receive small quantities of experience, do small quantities of damage, etc. Especially AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME. If I start with 30-70 in every stat, then I won't be able to remember what my stats are and I won't care. If the numbers are 8, 12, etc, I can do the math in my head and I really want to fight for experience. It's perfectly fine to scale it up as high as necessary for later in the game, because once I make the initial connection with the numbers I'm a lot happier.
Motivation: Fighting to level up so I can check my stats and see how they changed.
d) Cute enemies. I can kill cute enemies all day. Motivation: My own insanity.
e) Non-traditional battles. Motivation: The novelty alone is enough, at least for enough of the game to get me into it.
It's not always a tremendously complicated issue. I love stats and all but experience alone is just not enough to make me care. To me, the "level" statistic is as meaningless as it really is, with no effect on battle mechanics. And I've seen too many statistics pages to actually look at and be able to remember a bunch of assorted numbers (unless they're small). All I need is something else to keep me interested, and if it's just the fact that all the enemies in the game are cute, well, I'm okay with that.
I think I can see the point he's trying to make. RPGs are about stats and leveling up, and when you don't have the patience to gain experience and develop your characters, you're not an RPG person.
But in my case I love stats and leveling up. It's just that in a traditional "FIGHT/MAGIC/ITEM" system, it's just "Find out the enemy's weakness. Weigh whether or not it's worth it to use magic. Use magic if it's worth it. Heal when needed."
Now I'm capable of doing repetitive tasks in games and being happy with it. What I need, though, is some motivation other than just "Oh, I'm fighting for experience." Now I admit I'm crazy, but for me that's one of the following:
a) Nonrandom encounters. Motivation: Fighting to clean up the room.
b) Enemies I care about. I hate when enemies you've never been introduced to just pop up to fight. When someone makes a passing remark about "wolves on the prowl" before I fight wolves in regular battles, it means so much more to me. Also enemies that clearly fit into the environs work pretty well (e.g. crocodile in a swamp). Motivation: Fight because the atmosphere makes me happy.
c) Low numbers. Final Fantasy does not do this. But I absolutely love it when I receive small quantities of experience, do small quantities of damage, etc. Especially AT THE BEGINNING OF THE GAME. If I start with 30-70 in every stat, then I won't be able to remember what my stats are and I won't care. If the numbers are 8, 12, etc, I can do the math in my head and I really want to fight for experience. It's perfectly fine to scale it up as high as necessary for later in the game, because once I make the initial connection with the numbers I'm a lot happier.
Motivation: Fighting to level up so I can check my stats and see how they changed.
d) Cute enemies. I can kill cute enemies all day. Motivation: My own insanity.
e) Non-traditional battles. Motivation: The novelty alone is enough, at least for enough of the game to get me into it.
It's not always a tremendously complicated issue. I love stats and all but experience alone is just not enough to make me care. To me, the "level" statistic is as meaningless as it really is, with no effect on battle mechanics. And I've seen too many statistics pages to actually look at and be able to remember a bunch of assorted numbers (unless they're small). All I need is something else to keep me interested, and if it's just the fact that all the enemies in the game are cute, well, I'm okay with that.
I think I can see the point he's trying to make. RPGs are about stats and leveling up, and when you don't have the patience to gain experience and develop your characters, you're not an RPG person.Well, then they just wouldn't care about RPGs at all instead of caring but wanting them to be faster paced! It's not like I've never touched an RPG before, being on RPGmaker.net and using RPG Maker. I know this "RPGs aren't for you" wasn't solely directed at me, but I'll take it personally anyway as an example (not personally as in personally insulted or whatever, as I'm not).
I played FF1, and it was my first video game. I beat it too. I wouldn't have the patience to now though, Elfland/MarshCave/IceCave is a real turn off. If you gained 4x as much EXP or whatever, I wouldn't mind nearly as much and I probably would go through the whole game again, despite how simple it is.
I beat FF1, FF3 (Oh man I hated this game), FF4, FF5 (twice), FF6 (twice), FF7, FF8 (twice), FFX, and I played all the other Final Fantasies, just haven't beaten them. I beat Tales of Phantasia, Beat Star Ocean (Forced myself to, I didn't like it), Beat Chrono Trigger at least 12 times, Beat Secret of Mana like 3 times, Beat Seiken Densetsu 3 about 3 times, Beat Final Fantasy adventure many times, same with FFL2, Beat Bahamut Lagoon, Beat Nox twice, Beat Oblivion 4 times (doing most of the sidequests), Beat Legend of Mana 3 times. Beat Mario RPG twice, beat Mario and Luigi superstar saga twice. There are many others I've played, but got too bored to continue, and there's probably a bunch I'm forgetting.
I think the amount of RPGs I play outnumber everything else. I don't mind that RPGs have levels and stats and stuff. I like that. What I don't like is forcing me to stay in one area and fight the same monsters over again so I can be tough enough to fight the boss because there aren't many or any alternatives to do. If you're not on the right level, then you can't win. Obviously you can't skip every battle and expect to win, but it's rare that I want to stick around an area to level up. But give me an area of monsters that runs out when you kill them all, and that's what I'll do. I like clearing out an area. I don't like random encounters.
Only a few games like Final Fantasy 5 did that for me, since I had a goal other than "Be 2 levels higher", I had something like "10 ABP left until I learn White Magic Level 3, then I can change to Black Mage class and have some White magic skill to cast Cure2 also" as the goal, which I think is more enjoyable than: "Go up 2 levels so your stats go up, and that's it".
And again, I don't have as much free time as I did back when I was younger, so I don't want a game to take 40+ hours. I want one that's more accessible to people who not only don't have that much time, but also may need to go somewhere and have to leave in a hurry, so that's why I like save anywhere too. Quest based stuff is good, I tend to prefer that as I could just say "I'll play 2 quests and then I'll go to sleep".
Blitzen
3253
I see it completely differently. I really don't see how play length is a factor at all. If the game is fun people will go back to it. If its not people will say it is too long because its boring and they are having to force themselves to play it. Its not your fault if you don't like a game, its the designer's fault for failing to capture your interest and create a stimulating experience, even if you prefer a certain type of game over others, because good design will transcend personal tastes and make a sharp impression on the player.
