PROTECTING YOUR PROJECT FROM THIEVES.

Posts

author=LockeZ
author=Archaea_Nessiah
I think everyone has the right to choose what they want to share and what they don't want.
That would be true, if the game belonged to you. But it doesn't. You belong to it. The games are the ultimate goal, and we are just one more tool used in their crafting.

Neon Black asks: lulwut?

A game doesn't make itself.
A game is also a medium of self expression. I have no fucking idea what you are going on with this point.

I still go by my statement:
I think you can still improve gaming by INSPIRATION. Not by BLATANT COPIES AND LET THEM GET THOSE SHIT WITHOUT LEARNING IT BY THEMSELVES. When learning is an integral part of indie game development.

You can learn in many several ways but just making stuff you earned hard to do for yourself being stolen is a huge spit to your hardwork and contribution to the indie game industry. ART OR CODE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.
author=LockeZ
I'm actually morally against making your scripts unusable by other people. You're valuing your own reputation more than the improvement of the indie game community. If you can make other people's games better by doing nothing, you absolutely should, and you're a horrible human being for suggesting otherwise.


I'm morally and spiritually against artists not drawing my characters for me. Red head bikini island super mysteries is not going to finish itself you selfish artists!

But yeah, the indie community can go and collectively suck it if they think they can have everything they want and they have to get it without doing the work themselves.
I don't want newbies to think that it's A-OKAY TO STEAL CODE SINCE IT PROMOTES ~INDIE GROWTH~

I prefer it if people would actually work together and have respectable partnerships and make the world a better place.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
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author=Archeia_Nessiah
I don't want newbies to think that it's A-OKAY TO STEAL CODE SINCE IT PROMOTES ~INDIE GROWTH~
I do!

I mean, who is it hurting?

Not you. You already put in the work and/or money. Your game is freeware. You're not going to lose any more than you would have if it didn't get stolen from you.

Not your game. If anything, people will find out where their game got its resources from, and your game will get more fame by proxy. It will stand out as not only being good enough to play, but a model for other games to follow, which is a very powerful form of advertising.

Not the players. They're getting more, better games.

Not the developer who took it from you. He's saving time, so he can make two good games instead of one.

The only thing hurt is your ego. It makes you angry that someone else didn't have to suffer the way you suffered. You want them to go through the same pain and work that you had to, even though they could totally skip it. Unfortunately for you, this is a pretty fuckin' evil motivation. Only one person should have to go through that work. It's pointless and selfish to force people to go through work that serves no purpose.

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Now, as a disclaimer, in the original case suggested by the OP, suggesting the idea of someone stealing his entire game wholesale, that does have a victim. Him, because he has lost public credibility. It's also not hard to imagine the game suffering, unable to receive updates because the person who is able to work on it isn't the same person who is in control of the downloads.
Lockez, recognition is a currency in indie development. People develop games for the purpose of making a name for themselves.

It's fine to reference code when building your own. It's not fine to lift it wholesale without author permission.

It's fine to reference sprites when building your own. It's not fine to lift it wholesale without artist permission.

author=LockeZ
The only thing hurt is your ego. It makes you angry that someone else didn't have to suffer the way you suffered. You want them to go through the same pain and work that you had to, even though they could totally skip it. Unfortunately for you, this is a pretty fuckin' evil motivation. Only one person should have to go through that work.


You're mistaking her point for the one you want to fight. Archeia's arguing against stealing (using another's work and claiming it is your own). What you are arguing for is referencing (using another's work to benefit your own).

They're easily to mistake for each other, but the difference couldn't be more relevant than it is to this topic.
But let's just assume you're being antagonistic.

author=LockeZ
Not your game. If anything, people will find out where their game got its resources from, and your game will get more fame by proxy. It will stand out as not only being good enough to play, but a model for other games to follow, which is a very powerful form of advertising.

No, it wouldn't. I've seen this happen plenty of times and the person who STOLE them gets the fame instead or whichever is more popular or if the developer "sell out" enough to make sure everyone knows its their work. We were actually once accused of stealing Recetear's idea when we happened to actually work on our own way earlier and it just so happened we have similar looking protagonists with same hair styles, have almost the same gameplay mechanics, etc. despite having our game in dev ways off Recetear's release. (IT's called Revenue Rochette).

Black Swan vs. Perfect Blue. 'Nuff said. The copycat even won an oscar with the blatant copies from the JP anime in terms of composition etc.

author=LockeZ
Not the players. They're getting more, better games.
No, they wouldn't. HI GAMELOFT. (P.s. I have nothing against Gameloft, but when they blatantly release almost exact copy of games, it's hard not to mention them. But I think this is another discussion overall.)

The only thing hurt is your ego. It makes you angry that someone else didn't have to suffer the way you suffered. You want them to go through the same pain and work that you had to, even though they could totally skip it. Unfortunately for you, this is a pretty fuckin' evil motivation. Only one person should have to go through that work. It's pointless and selfish to force people to go through work that serves no purpose.

What is this the path of martyrdom?

By your logic, someone can release a commercial/freeware game and we can take it, dismantle it, create the game again and release it for free and fuck him out of his money/effort.

and hell, let's not make this about indie games, but something of similar vein.

People lose their goddamn minds over music stealing.
But it's totally okay now in game development?

People lose their shit when people trace other people's artworks and claim it as their own.
But it's totally okay now in game development?

By YOUR LOGIC, people can make MORE AWESOME SHIT if they steal each other's work. I mean come on, skill totally doesn't mean a thing to this. Someone already made it, it's better to just trace an artwork, create a base, and then reuse the same base with little modification regardless of how the artist feels. Despite the fact the artist spent almost their entire lifetime honing a skill.

It's, THE SAME. Game Development, Music and ART are creative ventures with similar learning curves, similar strategies and similar needs. Artist Alley and Group of Friends for artists. Bands for Musicians. DEV TEAMS for Games.

Referencing?
I will actually fight you. I will hack your game myself to get the code out of it, and host the new game that's using your code on my own webspace paid for with my own money if I have to. I will take you the fuck down. Because games are important, more important than any one developer's personal ego.

This is far from being confused by "referencing" others work. It's plain theft, justified by laziness.


And this is my last reply to this, I think I've said enough. I am currently having a hard time at work and it's creeping in my forum posts lol.
Yeah, Locke, you're totally missing the point. As LouisCyphre said,

You're mistaking her point for the one you want to fight. Archeia's arguing against stealing (using another's work and claiming it is your own). What you are arguing for is referencing (using another's work to benefit your own).

Sharing one's work is okay, but STEALING is another thing altogether. What you have described is very much about sharing one's work.
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EDIT: By the way, Red_Nova:

author=Red_Nova
1: Post encrypted files

Con: Honestly, I can't think of a con for this one. I think I just answered my own question, but let's keep going. Maybe one of you can think of a con for this method.

Oh, there certainly is a con. Ever heard of decrypting? There are definitely people who are capable of decrypting files encrypted by different people.
Fomar0153
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author=LockeZ
Code, though, no. Code is just a means to an end; keeping it to yourself has no benefit. If another game would benefit from using your code, and you don't want them to, I will actually fight you. I will hack your game myself to get the code out of it, and host the new game that's using your code on my own webspace paid for with my own money if I have to. I will take you the fuck down. Because games are important, more important than any one developer's personal ego. You are a game designer, and you have an obligation to make games better! Not to make your game better, but to make games better! There is nothing special about your game that makes it inherently more worthwhile than the rest of the games out there. It might be more worthwhile than specific other games out there, but refusing wholesale to let any game at all benefit from your work except for one is just absurdly conceited.

I shall have to prepare a script protection service and then let you have it and see if you can crack. I think I'll win.


author=LockeZ
author=Archeia_Nessiah
I don't want newbies to think that it's A-OKAY TO STEAL CODE SINCE IT PROMOTES ~INDIE GROWTH~
I do!

I mean, who is it hurting?

Not you. You already put in the work and/or money. Your game is freeware. You're not going to lose any more than you would have if it didn't get stolen from you.

Not your game. If anything, people will find out where their game got its resources from, and your game will get more fame by proxy. It will stand out as not only being good enough to play, but a model for other games to follow, which is a very powerful form of advertising.

Not the players. They're getting more, better games.

Not the developer who took it from you. He's saving time, so he can make two good games instead of one.

The only thing hurt is your ego. It makes you angry that someone else didn't have to suffer the way you suffered. You want them to go through the same pain and work that you had to, even though they could totally skip it. Unfortunately for you, this is a pretty fuckin' evil motivation. Only one person should have to go through that work. It's pointless and selfish to force people to go through work that serves no purpose.

Actually it does hurt me, I wanted my game to be unique and if then all the systems I've developed for my game are re-used in other games then it loses that. I mean why play my game then rather than one of those other games.

And what if my game is commercial is it suddenly wrong then? Also no one is going to say "Hey play my game it has all of Fomar's game's systems." I don't think I get any advertising out of this theft.

No the players get more generic games with systems they've seen before.

I'd rather he made one game with custom scripts and art.

I didn't suffer to make any of my scripts, they were a labour of love. Also the work they would go through does serve a purpose, it makes their games better and more unique and if they do some of it themselves then they also increase their skill level.

If all this makes me evil then I'm the biggest cunt here.
@Lockez:
Eh, I'm not gonna debate with you on the so called Code of Conduct or the wonderful benefits derived from stuff from freeware games getting "shared" or whatever. I'm just gonna say this:

I don't give a fuck on how noble and widely beneficial your reasoning is. When a person creates something, it becomes their property and belongs solely to them. And you, as a person who was, in no way, involved in the production of such property, do not have the right to fuck with it, unless it is specifically stated in the Terms of Use, that the author allows derivative work.

I have evidence taken straight from copyright laws for what I just said, and I'm more than capable of showing it to you right about now. What about yours? I don't think I'm seeing any evidence backing your claims.

P/S: Surely the people who took the time and effort in the establishment of copyright laws and the public who widely accepted it can't be more stupid than some random dude on RMN can they?. Copyright laws are there to protect people, especially creative producers, from people, like say, you.
I understand what you're saying, LockeZ, but I think you're making the mistake of thinking of code strictly as "building blocks" rather than a product of its own... Take a poem as an analogy. You can't claim ownership on the idea behind it, or the letters on the alphabet, or the words on the dictionary, or the grammatical rules that dictates how those words must come together (All mere "building blocks"); but the poem as a whole belongs to you only - that specific sum of variables that made your poem what it is, is your work and your time and no one else should be able to take advantage from it, at least not against your wishes.

If anything, code (and other game assets) should be made available for study. If this is really for the betterment of the indie game scene, simply distributing your game un-encrypted for others to see or making tutorials, should be more than enough to achieve the same end. There's no need for anyone to just copy & paste anything, for any reason.
_
Of course, there's also the possibility that a piece of code may be so simple that anyone with the knowledge would be able to code something in practically the same way, in which case, claiming ownership or proving it was stolen may be next to impossible. But for anything complex like a mini-game or whatever, I think the previous argument still stands.
Welp! Double post... -_-;
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
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author=Fomar0153
Actually it does hurt me, I wanted my game to be unique and if then all the systems I've developed for my game are re-used in other games then it loses that. I mean why play my game then rather than one of those other games.
That's not hurting you. It's hurting your feelings. I don't care about your feelings.

author=LouisCyphre
Lockez, recognition is a currency in indie development. People develop games for the purpose of making a name for themselves.
This is absolutely true, but I don't think copying internal components that the player cannot see or know the existance of, like code, actually diminishes the recognition of the original creator.

author=Archaea_Nessiah
No, it wouldn't. I've seen this happen plenty of times and the person who STOLE them gets the fame instead or whichever is more popular or if the developer "sell out" enough to make sure everyone knows its their work.
Really? The only reason I know about the existance of Rudra no Hihou is because of people getting accused of stealing tilesets from it. The fact that someone accused me of taking a sprite from The Way was the first time I ever heard of that game (since the sprite was actually posted for free usage on Don Miguel's forum before The Way existed). I've had my work personally stolen before, and when I pointed it out publically, I got as many downloads in a week as I'd had in the previous three months. (Specifically, someone made a game using maps from my game, though this was almost a decade ago and I can't remember the details.) This isn't rocket science: if you tell people that something they like is based on something else, more than 0% of them will check out the thing that it's based on.

author=EvilEagles
Surely the people who took the time and effort in the establishment of copyright laws and the public who widely accepted it can't be more stupid than some random dude on RMN can they?. Copyright laws are there to protect people, especially creative producers, from people, like say, you.
I have a feeling you don't actually know much about copyright laws, or you wouldn't be defending them. At the very least, you certainly wouldn't be suggesting that they are widely accepted by the public. The US Copyright Bureau is practically a wholly owned subsidiary of Disney Entertainment, and the current laws are designed with one purpose, which is to keep anyone from doing to Mickey Mouse what Mickey Mouse did to Steamboat Bill.

Like the overwhelming majority of people, I am in favor of copyright reform.
And since I have mostly calmed down,

I do believe there are better ways to actually make indie game development scene go farther than just lol let's plainly steal code. That is to make the realm of programming easily accessible to people who don't have the prowess or motivation to code. Make the "building blocks" easier to learn and get into.

Now that is a way to actually improve indie game development scene than just stepping on people's toes and diss their hard work by saying, fuck you for being unique, I'm stealing your code and host it in a website so everyone else can have it too. There's one thing we call respect, yo. :1

author=LouisCyphre
Lockez, recognition is a currency in indie development. People develop games for the purpose of making a name for themselves.
This is absolutely true, but I don't think copying internal components that the player cannot see or know the existance of, like code, actually diminishes the recognition of the original creator.

author=EvilEagles
@Lockez:I don't give a fuck on how noble and widely beneficial your reasoning is. When a person creates something, it becomes their property and belongs solely to them. And you, as a person who was, in no way, involved in the production of such property, do not have the right to fuck with it, unless it is specifically stated in the Terms of Use, that the author allows derivative work.

I have evidence taken straight from copyright laws for what I just said, and I'm more than capable of showing it to you right about now. What about yours? I don't think I'm seeing any evidence backing your claims.

P/S: Surely the people who took the time and effort in the establishment of copyright laws and the public who widely accepted it can't be more stupid than some random dude on RMN can they?. Copyright laws are there to protect people, especially creative producers, from people, like say, you.

This and since you're saying "I don't care about your feelings." I don't care about your feelings too on how we should distribute our own work. and way to go and ignore all the other points :D Nothing you say will ever justify Stealing.
author=LockeZ
I've had my work personally stolen before, and when I pointed it out publically, I got as many downloads in a week as I'd had in the previous three months.

I got my work stolen and when I pointed it out I just got a bunch of death threats and was accused of stealing my own work and to this day there are people who still send me daily death threats and insults because of that other guy. Hell, some people will not even look at my work and just brush it off as me stealing it from someone else because of one moron who stole a script and tried to pass it off as his own.

That's the lovely "indie community" you seem so fond of and want to see grow.
author=Archeia_Nessiah
I don't think he's being paranoid or whatever, and art theft does happen in RM Communities in general. I've seen it happen in PrinPrin 1.5, ahahaha...

But I think Art Theft only happens when a n00b does it and wants the quickest way out. I do have some suggestions though and I can't give away every counter measures I might have but some would be:

1.) Self Dissolving Scripts. Basically make all your script files dissolve or check an important thing and then if it can't find that, it will corrupt data files. So if people tried to use it in their own games, yeah. It's not 100% fool proof, but for someone who knows very little RGSS and tries to steal your stuff, this would work.

2.) Clear all Switches and Variables Names. Basically Change the max to 1, then change it back to 500 for quick clear. At least it'd make things harder to find.

3.) Remember XYZ in rm2k3? If you can somehow do the same thing with RMXP-RMVXAce to read a specialized image format, that will already help you a lot.

4.) Clear all comments and make sure all the aliases in your script are made with your username or some such.

Audio Encryption is still impossible, unfortunately. :(


What you must understand, is that while setting boundaries is important, human life is an interconnected system, and decisions you make that affect others, ultimately affect you.

Going back to the bolded thing, what is the consequence of doing the script this way? Someone who generally wants to learn is gonna try your code. They will probably mix/remix it to suit their own purposes, which might eventually create something new. This is actually how new ideas are made (such as light + sound frequencies = TV). Now, what happens if you cut off the ability to use this game material? Well, simple as that, they can't learn from it, and they quit in frustration. (Further, giving people corruptable code is a big no) This was actually the state of things when only big groups had the power to create games, only super-geeks could try their own programming. It was a dead end, for anyone who didn't have the money or luck to get into IT schools.

Going back to the interconnected system. For the longest time, the whole plugin system was sort of closely guarded. There were really only like 7 or 8 plugins, and the idea was that this system was rather limited. About all that you could see was massively overcomplicated code, and it was mostly on CherryShare (which is hard to post to). But then, people started making a bunch of plugins, and sharing them. Guess what? These ideas, because the source was open, allowed people to learn the format (even me) and make their own stuff. Now there's everything from blending and mode 7, to stuff that can work with naming variables by item ID, to stuff that can make weird global storage.

When you guard stuff, on the other hand, the production of things stagnates. Yes, there is the potential for abuse. That's why we set up boundaries. You can have this and this, but please credit it. Or you can have this, but I made this. You can prevent this by making a template where you show how to make the essential process, but not your 20-step custom system. Since the 20-step system probably won't work if you don't know what you're doing, people will generally use the easier one, and you can give little hints on how to customize to what individual people want.

They shouldn't even have access to that code in the first place. It was made for that game and game alone. Also I have to ask? Do you know how it feels like getting a PM like this?

So, I totally decrypted your game. And I tried using your scripts but I don't get it. Can you teach me how to use them? (Yes, this totally happens and I actually got this a lot of times).

There is no expression of having interest in the game, they only expressed interest on what you did and even have the nerve to open it up and then ask YOU how it works since they want to use it too. There's one thing about asking about how you did it and open to discussion and help them out than blatantly stealing it without your permission.

And if you know about my site, I am one of those people who actually commission people to make scripts for public usage that otherwise they won't really do since it's hard work. But I do want to have some nice easter eggs by myself and enjoy and relish it for a while. It's like draining me of EVERYTHING and I CAN'T HAVE ANYTHING. There are boundaries on how much people want to share and what they want to keep. You have to keep that in mind.

I also suggest googling the term Art Leech.
Oh and.

author=LockeZ
author=LouisCyphre
Lockez, recognition is a currency in indie development. People develop games for the purpose of making a name for themselves.
This is absolutely true, but I don't think copying internal components that the player cannot see or know the existance of, like code, actually diminishes the recognition of the original creator.

You DO see code. Every time the player moves on screen, you see the code in action. Every time the player enters the battle, you see the code moving the sprites around, drawing information, displaying animations. In the same way that removing a sprite would make it impossible for the player to know where they are on a map, removing code would make the game impossible to play. Code is no less and no more important than art or music, which is why I am dumbfounded you would say that those should be held in a higher respect (see your earlier post). People work just as hard on those and to have them blatantly stolen is just as terrible as stealing art or music. Of course if the person writing the code or buying it wants to share it, that's acceptable, but that's up to them, same as with graphics and music. There's NO EXCUSE for stealing code.

also did you just said that copyright laws only exist in the US and there's no difference in other countries? That's racist you know.
author=LockeZ
I have a feeling you don't actually know much about copyright laws, or you wouldn't be defending them. At the very least, you certainly wouldn't be suggesting that they are widely accepted by the public. The US Copyright Bureau is practically a wholly owned subsidiary of Disney Entertainment, and the current laws are designed with one purpose, which is to keep anyone from doing to Mickey Mouse what Mickey Mouse did to Steamboat Bill.

Like the overwhelming majority of people, I am in favor of copyright reform.


And I have a feeling this is all you know (or you think you know about Copyright Laws. The US was the pioneer in establishing copyright laws, no shit, but it serves as nothing but a sample that provides legal precedents for other regions in the world to assist in their own copyright laws establishment.

I'm not from the US. If you steal my property, and I sue you, I have full rights to file a lawsuit against you in my own national jurisdiction. Our regions, our laws. Nothing to do with your Mickey Mouse.
I guess the two of us are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

I view my game as a tutorial, not as some sort of masterpiece that needs to look 100% polished (part of why I'm more resistant to critique than people outright stealing code/art, someone making me change the idea of what I'm trying for is more a threat to me than someone being like "Mkay, I want your battle system" The former is just taking my stuff and doing what you want with it. The latter is in my eyes closer to trying to make a sculpture and then after chipping down a man, someone says "nah, make it a woman").

And yes, you can create distinctions between "simple enough for a cavemen" code that you freely share, and stuff that is so overcomplicated, someone has to recreate the system and several supporting scripts or it won't work. Allowing the simpler version will generally dissuade people from outright stealing your best work, and having something that pretty much works best for your game is way better than trying to hard-code corruptibility.

My game's ECS, for instance, depends on a number of factors, including the time/weather system and there are added portions to it, like tracking whether you are underground. Sure, you can have my code. If you can make sense of it, with all the common events attached to make it run.

The same is true of the calendar and seasons system. They're really cool, but you need all the supporting stuff, which is scattered around the CE page.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5146
author=Archaea_Nessiah
Do you know how it feels like getting a PM like this?

So, I totally decrypted your game. And I tried using your scripts but I don't get it. Can you teach me how to use them? (Yes, this totally happens and I actually got this a lot of times).

There is no expression of having interest in the game, they only expressed interest on what you did and even have the nerve to open it up and then ask YOU how it works since they want to use it too. There's one thing about asking about how you did it and open to discussion and help them out than blatantly stealing it without your permission.
It's happened a few times, except without the part about decrypting it, because my games aren't encrypted. I was flattered and tried to help them. In one case I showed them how to change my evented system in a way so that it would work in their game, in another case I coded a version that would work for them. It never even crossed my mind at the time to think of it as stealing, because I didn't lose anything. Helping people who are making games is the entire reason I'm on RMN. So to be completely honest that actually made me feel really good, and seeing my work directly resulting in more games like that was easily one of the best feelings I've ever had in my life.

Apparently this is an unpopular opinion though, and most people are just here for the makerscore, and don't care about games other than their own. Sigh. I know I can't do much about it, but I don't like that attitude at all, and I think it's killing the community. Things like Steam Greenlight and Kickstarter make people suddenly able to imagine themselves on stage at a digital rock concert, and they'll do anything to get there.