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Solitayre
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CloseWe've had the conversation before about trying to attract new players to the community, but the fact of the matter is RMN doesn't have the kind of consistent, quality output that keeps people looking for games coming back. Most projects on RMN never get finished. Many are not even playable. And much of what IS playable/finished isn't very good.
RMN sees maybe 2 or 3 really good games in a year. That's not many. It's not enough to support a playerbase.
RMN sees maybe 2 or 3 really good games in a year. That's not many. It's not enough to support a playerbase.
author=Solitayre
RMN sees maybe 2 or 3 really good games in a year. That's not many. It's not enough to support a playerbase.
I hate to say that I agree with this assessment. But then, again, it is what it is ...
author=Solitayre
We've had the conversation before about trying to attract new players to the community, but the fact of the matter is RMN doesn't have the kind of consistent, quality output that keeps people looking for games coming back. Most projects on RMN never get finished. Many are not even playable. And much of what IS playable/finished isn't very good.
RMN sees maybe 2 or 3 really good games in a year. That's not many. It's not enough to support a playerbase.
Sound more like the RPG Maker community as a whole than just specifically RMN.
RMN isn't just RPG Maker and has a variety of engines, it applies to all, imo.
Have you seen Gamemaker games?
Have you seen Gamemaker games?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=edchuyIt's not THAT bad. I mean, we somehow manage to feature a game every single month. And there are probably some good pretty ones that you just never even looked at because they were by an unknown user and had 37 downloads.author=SolitayreI hate to say that I agree with this assessment. But then, again, it is what it is ...
RMN sees maybe 2 or 3 really good games in a year. That's not many. It's not enough to support a playerbase.
author=LockeZauthor=edchuyIt's not THAT bad. I mean, we somehow manage to feature a game every single month. And there are probably some good pretty ones that you just never even looked at because they were by an unknown user and had 37 downloads.author=SolitayreI hate to say that I agree with this assessment. But then, again, it is what it is ...
RMN sees maybe 2 or 3 really good games in a year. That's not many. It's not enough to support a playerbase.
Mario+Contest games = filler for missing months too.
author=LockeZ
It's not THAT bad. I mean, we somehow manage to feature a game every single month. And there are probably some good pretty ones that you just never even looked at because they were by an unknown user and had 37 downloads.
Separating the wheat from the chaff. Now that's a job too large for any single one of us.
TheNecromancer
3160
But I realize the site has been very much moving in the opposite direction from that for a long time, trying to make everything have official ways of being submitted so that no one has to use forum posts or comments for anything.I seriously doubt that is the case. What you describe sounds like Meridian Dance. An elitist playground.
RMN is for everyone and standards should be a way of excluding absolute filth, not to alienate all but the "professionals".
Because if people have their stuff flagged as "good enough" then they get full of themselves and stop improving.Some people maybe, a very small percentage, but the people who actually care about gamecraft will continue to improve regardless of what they're told. Not only because they don't care but because improvement is kinda hard to avoid when you put effort into something.
RMN one liner?
Screw the professionals!
RMN, for as long as I've been here, isn't just about having good games, It's also been about learning how to make your games better. It's a safe haven for amateur designers to show-off their games, and gain some confidence in what there doing, while hopefully getting feedback on how to make those games better.
No I don't think we should let in absolute crap, because it's a sign the developer doesn't care about the game or to learn to improve. And if they do care they will improve it.
That's always been the spirit of this community to me, Good game and helping people make those good games. And their are at least a dozen or so good games every year, thank you very much.
RMN, for as long as I've been here, isn't just about having good games, It's also been about learning how to make your games better. It's a safe haven for amateur designers to show-off their games, and gain some confidence in what there doing, while hopefully getting feedback on how to make those games better.
No I don't think we should let in absolute crap, because it's a sign the developer doesn't care about the game or to learn to improve. And if they do care they will improve it.
That's always been the spirit of this community to me, Good game and helping people make those good games. And their are at least a dozen or so good games every year, thank you very much.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I would just like to point out, for the sake of making this discussion a little less dumb, that amateur vs. professional is not the same thing as novice vs. expert. There are plenty of really skilled amateur game designers (many on RMN!) and also plenty of really unskilled professional game designers.
This topic is kind of a circlejerk though because it's all oldbies who have been here for months/years and probably would never have anything denied at this point. I wonder if you could, like, send out a PM to the last forty people to submit things, regardless of whether they were accepted or not, and ask them the same thing?
This topic is kind of a circlejerk though because it's all oldbies who have been here for months/years and probably would never have anything denied at this point. I wonder if you could, like, send out a PM to the last forty people to submit things, regardless of whether they were accepted or not, and ask them the same thing?
TheNecromancer
3160
author=LockeZ
I would just like to point out, for the sake of making this discussion a little less dumb, that amateur vs. professional is not the same thing as novice vs. expert.
It was you who said professional vs amateur, any further reference to "professionals" is in jest because your comparison isn't something that needs to be pointed out. But really, being an expert is what allows a person to make a professional looking game. So they do go hand in hand.
If you only allow professional looking games, the creators will be experts, and we'll have a site of elite members only. If some people will stop improving when they get positive feedback, some will feel discouraged by that kind of policy. It was a bad idea.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Link_2112SOLITAYRE STARTED IT
It was you who said professional vs amateur, any further reference to "professionals" is in jest because your comparison isn't something that needs to be pointed out. But really, being an expert is what allows a person to make a professional looking game. So they do go hand in hand.
author=Link_2112"Elite" is completely relative. You can always find a subset of people that you're the "elite" member of. I mean, the dudes who created an account yesterday and can't figure out how event pages work are probably among the top elite game devs of their local middle schools. Most AAA game designers are worthless flailing babies compared to the few elite people like Shigeru Miyamoto. So the question is, what group of people do you want to define yourself as being part of? RPG Maker websites, or indie game websites, or just game websites?
If you only allow professional looking games, the creators will be experts, and we'll have a site of elite members only.
For a somewhat closer comparison than middle school gaming clubs or nintendo CEOs, Kongregate is probably like... 60% more elite than us? Is that a level of quality we want to strive for? Or maybe something in between that and where we are now?
I slightly lean towards having better games rather than worse ones, but it's not a strong opinion and I can actually see the merit of moving in either direction. I'm just trying to add to the discussion at this point, I guess.
We should always strive to have better games, no question, but someone may have to make several "sup-par" games first before they get to that quality.
The good thing about RMN is that we have "Elite" developers who know what their talking about, and most of the time, are willing to help less skilled developers. We shouldn't just ostracize some people just because their "not good enough", we should encourage "potential" so that eventually they can become the elite themselves. And potential could mean a lot of things. It could mean a rather well made first project, or after having their project rejected, putting effort into making it better. Point is we should nurture it not stomp all over it. It's not the end of the world to have the occasional "Bad" thing, as long as someone can learn from it (even if that lesson is "don't do what this person did")
We can be as elite as we want, in fact we should strive for it, but we should use that eliteness (yes I know, not a word) to teach others and we should never forget where we came from. Even Shigeru Miyamoto had to start somewhere.
The good thing about RMN is that we have "Elite" developers who know what their talking about, and most of the time, are willing to help less skilled developers. We shouldn't just ostracize some people just because their "not good enough", we should encourage "potential" so that eventually they can become the elite themselves. And potential could mean a lot of things. It could mean a rather well made first project, or after having their project rejected, putting effort into making it better. Point is we should nurture it not stomp all over it. It's not the end of the world to have the occasional "Bad" thing, as long as someone can learn from it (even if that lesson is "don't do what this person did")
We can be as elite as we want, in fact we should strive for it, but we should use that eliteness (yes I know, not a word) to teach others and we should never forget where we came from. Even Shigeru Miyamoto had to start somewhere.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Right, well, I mean, the question isn't whether to make the games that are already here better - the answer to that is always yes no matter who you are or where you are. The question is which games to allow on the site in the first place. We don't let people post games (or reviews) on the forums, so if you don't meet the minimum level of quality for submissions, you will have to go to a different site for help until you're good enough to be accepted here.
This is always going to be true as long as we have any standards at all. The only question is what level of quality exactly to place the cutoff at. (However if we allowed denied games to be posted on the forums, people who were denied would have a way to get feedback from the RMN forum community, which is mostly the same people as the RMN game page community.)
This is always going to be true as long as we have any standards at all. The only question is what level of quality exactly to place the cutoff at. (However if we allowed denied games to be posted on the forums, people who were denied would have a way to get feedback from the RMN forum community, which is mostly the same people as the RMN game page community.)
That's why we have screenshot topic though and watchu working on, right?
There's also art and lit boards and General Game Discussions. '3')b
There's also art and lit boards and General Game Discussions. '3')b
Dyhalto
7536
Keep in mind that we're all a bunch of fickle artists with some degree of insecurity. If you raise the standards too high and brand new users are met with a big wall of "you aren't acceptable", that's going to discourage them and the site will flat out run out of new users.
So yeah, if there was a poll, I'd vote for "It's fine as is".
So yeah, if there was a poll, I'd vote for "It's fine as is".
I am pleased to report that based on my research our minimum standards are in fact greater than those of the ios store! You don't even need to fork over $100 to get in with RMN!
(I'm personally quite happy with our current standards)
e: However on further research we have not reached the peak of the ios store so we have room to grow as a game dev community!
(I'm personally quite happy with our current standards)
e: However on further research we have not reached the peak of the ios store so we have room to grow as a game dev community!
I'm (kinda?) new and I've never had anything denied, but I'm the kind of perfectionist that believes in self-flagellation so it's probably a personal thing.
I think the standards are probably fine the way they are, except for the workload issue. The problem with some standards is that they can seem sort of specific or obtuse, like, if we actually enforced the Three-Tile-Rule, it would be utter nonsense. Even restricting stuff based on grammatical errors would be limiting because sometimes (although not often) it's intentional and part of the game.
I would never want to limit anyone based on their personal style, and limiting someone based on their experience is sort of antithesis to being inclusive to newbies. I think rather than lowering the standards, the best solution would be making sure that truly shining examples are seen by everyone, something RMN does well (featured games, reviewing games, and more). Featuring the best games of every ilk - traditional RPG, short-form "experience" games, Mario X levels, etc. is the way to get people to see the very best, while still accepting novice projects.
(Of course, this does nothing to help lessen the enormous workload on the approval staff :/ )
I think the standards are probably fine the way they are, except for the workload issue. The problem with some standards is that they can seem sort of specific or obtuse, like, if we actually enforced the Three-Tile-Rule, it would be utter nonsense. Even restricting stuff based on grammatical errors would be limiting because sometimes (although not often) it's intentional and part of the game.
I would never want to limit anyone based on their personal style, and limiting someone based on their experience is sort of antithesis to being inclusive to newbies. I think rather than lowering the standards, the best solution would be making sure that truly shining examples are seen by everyone, something RMN does well (featured games, reviewing games, and more). Featuring the best games of every ilk - traditional RPG, short-form "experience" games, Mario X levels, etc. is the way to get people to see the very best, while still accepting novice projects.
(Of course, this does nothing to help lessen the enormous workload on the approval staff :/ )
I went off topic a bit didn't I? Long story short, our standards are fine, we should feel good about them, now lets go get some ice-cream.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Since it came up in another thread: can we adjust our standards to not accept games that require the RTP? It's really cesspoolish.
