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A BALANCED THREE-HERO PARTY
Posts
unity
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CloseI'm working on a short game (aiming from 4 to 6 hours playtime) on the side to blow off some steam from my more major project (insane, probably, but hey) and I'm still in the planning stages and was hoping to get some advice on party roles in regards to gameplay.
The game will feature four party members, but for most of the game you're stuck with just three, and the forth is a last-minute recruit before the final dungeon.
I'm trying to come up with a way to have the other three characters all cover the needed bases for a well-rounded party while still allowing for some level of customization without one of the characters necessarily being solely a healer.
The three characters characters are the well-rounded hero, the physical based warrior, and the magical based, well, mage. But I think it'd be neat if they were somewhat customizable as the story progresses. Perhaps, instead of leveling being the biggest factor in character growth, after beating a boss, you could get a powerup that allowed you majorly boost what direction a character took in their progression, allowing tough choices like "Do I want the hero to have access to special healing spells or to be more of a powerhouse" etc.
But since none of the party members are designated healer types, I want to make sure that the party still has a means of survival. Perhaps that means having the hero being the one having access to all of the healing magic, but if you don't choose a healing build, then I probably need a fall-back. Perhaps the mage should have a healing route?
Oh yeah, and I should probably mention I wanted to do the game in VX Ace if at all possible.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and hopefully this doesn't come off as too long and rambly, as it's early in the morning here and I haven't been able to sleep ^^;;
The game will feature four party members, but for most of the game you're stuck with just three, and the forth is a last-minute recruit before the final dungeon.
I'm trying to come up with a way to have the other three characters all cover the needed bases for a well-rounded party while still allowing for some level of customization without one of the characters necessarily being solely a healer.
The three characters characters are the well-rounded hero, the physical based warrior, and the magical based, well, mage. But I think it'd be neat if they were somewhat customizable as the story progresses. Perhaps, instead of leveling being the biggest factor in character growth, after beating a boss, you could get a powerup that allowed you majorly boost what direction a character took in their progression, allowing tough choices like "Do I want the hero to have access to special healing spells or to be more of a powerhouse" etc.
But since none of the party members are designated healer types, I want to make sure that the party still has a means of survival. Perhaps that means having the hero being the one having access to all of the healing magic, but if you don't choose a healing build, then I probably need a fall-back. Perhaps the mage should have a healing route?
Oh yeah, and I should probably mention I wanted to do the game in VX Ace if at all possible.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and hopefully this doesn't come off as too long and rambly, as it's early in the morning here and I haven't been able to sleep ^^;;
author=unity
The game will feature four party members, but for most of the game you're stuck with just three, and the forth is a last-minute recruit before the final dungeon.
Why?
My advice*? Make the Mr. Hero primary attacker + main support. Buffs n' debuffs.
WarriorDude is main healer/heavy hitter who hits hard and can keep one person alive at a time. At higher levels he can keep everyone alive easily as he's the only guy who gets multi-target healing. Gives him something better to do than attack the livelong day, and it means that you can't always use him to keep damage up on the bad guys if you're constantly having to stop to heal up. Requires you to actually use buffs n' debuffs.
MageGuy is attack magic/light support. Maybe a little healing like a mid-level warrior so that when you get him he's not totally useless. That is unless you give him multi-target attack magic right out the gate. Or make elemental weaknesses/status effects actually useful.
If you've got a 4th guy right before the end of the game he should primarily be a support role to keep your awesome main party not dead and NOT an awesome 4th addition who outshines everyone else. That's cool sometimes, but the final dungeon is usually not the place to do that.
*My advice is usually wrong.
EDIT: Oh wait, this is a short game? Well nevermind that business about the 4th guy then.
RyaReisender
200
Well an RPG doesn't necessarily need healing spells (or spells at that) at all. You can easily compensate the lack of a healer by having recovery items.
Or even make healing completely impossible and just do "full recovery after every battle" (SaGa games often do it like this).
Battles need to be interesting and strategical, so that 3-hero party setup should offer everything required for the strategies.
That final character that joins shouldn't be an important core factor of the strategies (but could be incorporated in the strategy needed to require the final boss), so basically a damage dealer most likely. Or maybe an "item user" that doubles the recovery effect of the items used (to compensate for the increase max HP during endgame).
The remaining party is basically free to be whatever, just make sure that their access to skills makes the battles interesting.
Or even make healing completely impossible and just do "full recovery after every battle" (SaGa games often do it like this).
Battles need to be interesting and strategical, so that 3-hero party setup should offer everything required for the strategies.
That final character that joins shouldn't be an important core factor of the strategies (but could be incorporated in the strategy needed to require the final boss), so basically a damage dealer most likely. Or maybe an "item user" that doubles the recovery effect of the items used (to compensate for the increase max HP during endgame).
The remaining party is basically free to be whatever, just make sure that their access to skills makes the battles interesting.
One Fast, one Heavy hitter and One balanced.
You can do weak, strong, middle or Fast, slow, normal or ranged, close, middle or magic, physical, both.
What matters is that each has a weakness that the others compensate for. So strong would be weak against magic, fast would do small damage, ranged would have less defence and so forth.
You can do weak, strong, middle or Fast, slow, normal or ranged, close, middle or magic, physical, both.
What matters is that each has a weakness that the others compensate for. So strong would be weak against magic, fast would do small damage, ranged would have less defence and so forth.
Warrior, Mage, Healer (who is also a semi-decent fighter)
EDIT:
Coincidentally, I am playing Dragon Quest II right now, which is exactly that, except the Healer also has a handful of offensive magic spells.
EDIT:
Coincidentally, I am playing Dragon Quest II right now, which is exactly that, except the Healer also has a handful of offensive magic spells.
Dyhalto
7536
author=kentona
Coincidentally, I am playing Dragon Quest II right now, which is exactly that, except the Healer also has a handful of offensive magic spells.
Which one do you consider the "Healer"? Peta has the stronger heal spells, but I conserved her MP for offensive magic by using Numor's healing.
Come to think of it, that applies to the question of this thread. If you mix it up a bit, give everyone a piece of everything in varying quality, you can have player preference decide on each character's role at a particular time. That way you don't need to boringly define "Warrior, Healer, Mage".
author=DyhaltoI've always though of Rolando as the "healer" and Linda as the "mage", but most based off of my memory of the Dragon Warrior II boxart and back:author=kentonaWhich one do you consider the "Healer"? Peta has the stronger heal spells, but I conserved her MP for offensive magic by using Numor's healing.
Coincidentally, I am playing Dragon Quest II right now, which is exactly that, except the Healer also has a handful of offensive magic spells.
Come to think of it, that applies to the question of this thread. If you mix it up a bit, give everyone a piece of everything in varying quality, you can have player preference decide on each character's role at a particular time. That way you don't need to boringly define "Warrior, Healer, Mage".
They're both healers, technically. Prince of Cannock was sort of this vague-ish "paladin' character that was supposed to be an all-rounder. But this was way back in the day when these sorts of roles weren't codified by Final Fantasy yet. So he is kind of sucky with not much attack power, no good attack spells till midgame, and his healing pales in comparison to the Princess of Moonbrooke. Once you get her, you only use the Prince for ancillary healing that she can't be arsed with, since she's got all the good attack/status spells.
Kentona, PM what you think about THE CAVE TO RHONE once you get there. We'll swap war stories.
Kentona, PM what you think about THE CAVE TO RHONE once you get there. We'll swap war stories.
I never got very far in DW2 because I never owned it, only rented it! I am playing it via a translated DQ1+2 rom on my SNES emulator on my phone.
Because I never got very far is the reason why I am playing it now. I am only at the point where I need to find the mirror of Ra... and a mysterious puppy.
Because I never got very far is the reason why I am playing it now. I am only at the point where I need to find the mirror of Ra... and a mysterious puppy.
Dyhalto
7536
author=Isrieri
Prince of Cannock was sort of this vague-ish "paladin' character that was supposed to be an all-rounder. But this was way back in the day when these sorts of roles weren't codified by Final Fantasy yet. So he is kind of sucky with not much attack power, no good attack spells till midgame, and his healing pales in comparison to the Princess of Moonbrooke.
Tell me about it. I dragged that Iron Spear through the mud all the way until the last dungeon. Eventually I clued in that the Falcon Sword was kind of meant for him. But geez, a middle weapon would've been nice.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If you're worried about giving the player enough survival strategies, an alternate to a dedicated healer would be a dedicated tank, or maybe a defensive buffer. Someone who can mitigate or nullify enemy attacks before they happen, instead of afterwards like a healer does.
It depends what kinds of enemy strategies you're comfortable making. If you don't like having enemies that have tells and clear patterns to warn the player of upcoming attacks, a healer might be a better option. If you feel confident in your ability to make a game full of engaging battles that primarily are testing the player's offensive strategies, with enemies that do lots of things to overwhelm you if you take too long, you might not need a healer or defensive character at all. If you aren't confident you can do anything even close to that, a healer and a tank might be a good choice, because letting the player win via defense is usually much easier to design - but it can result in more boring battles if you overdo it, since it makes your one offensive character feel kinda useless, in that his/her power isn't really needed to win, only to win faster.
It depends what kinds of enemy strategies you're comfortable making. If you don't like having enemies that have tells and clear patterns to warn the player of upcoming attacks, a healer might be a better option. If you feel confident in your ability to make a game full of engaging battles that primarily are testing the player's offensive strategies, with enemies that do lots of things to overwhelm you if you take too long, you might not need a healer or defensive character at all. If you aren't confident you can do anything even close to that, a healer and a tank might be a good choice, because letting the player win via defense is usually much easier to design - but it can result in more boring battles if you overdo it, since it makes your one offensive character feel kinda useless, in that his/her power isn't really needed to win, only to win faster.
author=DyhaltoHe is classified as a Paladin in the DQI+II SNES translation!author=IsrieriTell me about it. I dragged that Iron Spear through the mud all the way until the last dungeon. Eventually I clued in that the Falcon Sword was kind of meant for him. But geez, a middle weapon would've been nice.
Prince of Cannock was sort of this vague-ish "paladin' character that was supposed to be an all-rounder. But this was way back in the day when these sorts of roles weren't codified by Final Fantasy yet. So he is kind of sucky with not much attack power, no good attack spells till midgame, and his healing pales in comparison to the Princess of Moonbrooke.
A lot of great advice, thanks! ^_^ Hmmm. Let me organize my thoughts a bit.
The Hero could be a faster character, and if I use a CTB battle system, would get to take turns more often. They could also have buffing and limited support magic.
The Warrior could be much slower, have powerful attacks, but also be the one with some healing abilities, which would create the dynamic of "Do I want to cleave that monster in half or heal my ally who is hurting?" They could be weaker to magic attacks.
The Mage could be average speed, and basically do what a mage does, while having lesser armor. Though if I could think up some neat abilities for them, (things other than just elemental damage spells and the like) they could be a bit less boring.
If I look at it that way, then I think I might not yet be skilled enough to have combat without having one character with some healing abilities, though the idea of battles getting more overwhelming as time passes is very appealing. I definitely don't want to overdo the defense either, and I've also noticed that I've been a bit too generous with healing items in past games, so I'll need to work on that, too.
The Hero could be a faster character, and if I use a CTB battle system, would get to take turns more often. They could also have buffing and limited support magic.
The Warrior could be much slower, have powerful attacks, but also be the one with some healing abilities, which would create the dynamic of "Do I want to cleave that monster in half or heal my ally who is hurting?" They could be weaker to magic attacks.
The Mage could be average speed, and basically do what a mage does, while having lesser armor. Though if I could think up some neat abilities for them, (things other than just elemental damage spells and the like) they could be a bit less boring.
author=LockeZ
If you're worried about giving the player enough survival strategies, an alternate to a dedicated healer would be a dedicated tank, or maybe a defensive buffer. Someone who can mitigate or nullify enemy attacks before they happen, instead of afterwards like a healer does.
It depends what kinds of enemy strategies you're comfortable making. If you don't like having enemies that have tells and clear patterns to warn the player of upcoming attacks, a healer might be a better option. If you feel confident in your ability to make a game full of engaging battles that primarily are testing the player's offensive strategies, with enemies that do lots of things to overwhelm you if you take too long, you might not need a healer or defensive character at all. If you aren't confident you can do anything even close to that, a healer and a tank might be a good choice, because letting the player win via defense is usually much easier to design - but it can result in more boring battles if you overdo it, since it makes your one offensive character feel kinda useless, in that his/her power isn't really needed to win, only to win faster.
If I look at it that way, then I think I might not yet be skilled enough to have combat without having one character with some healing abilities, though the idea of battles getting more overwhelming as time passes is very appealing. I definitely don't want to overdo the defense either, and I've also noticed that I've been a bit too generous with healing items in past games, so I'll need to work on that, too.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
There are a lot of ways to make individual battles get more overwhelming as time passes, which you can scatter around to create some variety, but you could also just pick one way to constantly do throughout the whole game. For example, Precipice of Darkness 3 and 4 have a system where every time the enemies get a turn, they get 10% stronger. Dragon Age makes new enemies spawn mid-battle during every single fight in the entire game, usually two or three times per battle. FF13 gives you more item drops the faster you win. A simpler classical way is to not allow any MP recovery during battles; this only works for longer battles though, unless you complicate it.
I like the idea of "as turns progress, enemies get stronger." Would giving them deadlier moves each turn accomplish this, or would something more complicated be better?
Not allowing MP recovery also sounds fun and viable. Would they get full MP restored after battle, or maybe MP restoration items are available but can only be used in the field?
Not allowing MP recovery also sounds fun and viable. Would they get full MP restored after battle, or maybe MP restoration items are available but can only be used in the field?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=unityGiving them deadlier moves over time would work really well in RPG Maker, since it requires zero scripting.
I like the idea of "as turns progress, enemies get stronger." Would giving them deadlier moves each turn accomplish this, or would something more complicated be better?
author=unityIt depends how much you want your dungeons to be a battle of attrition that the player has to have enough resources to survive. If you make the player spend items to recover MP, though, he or she is going to try to conserve MP during fights. The player's focus won't be on winning quickly before he or she runs out of MP, so much as winning with as little MP usage as possible. It could still work, but I think you might need to, like, remove the normal attack command so that every single way of dealing damage costs MP.
Not allowing MP recovery also sounds fun and viable. Would they get full MP restored after battle, or maybe MP restoration items are available but can only be used in the field?
author=LockeZ
Giving them deadlier moves over time would work really well in RPG Maker, since it requires zero scripting.
Yeah, that was my thought ^_^ Especially since, aside from making very small modifications to existing scripts, I'm no good at scripting.
author=LockeZ
It depends how much you want your dungeons to be a battle of attrition that the player has to have enough resources to survive. If you make the player spend items to recover MP, though, he or she is going to try to conserve MP during fights. The player's focus won't be on winning quickly before he or she runs out of MP, so much as winning with as little MP usage as possible. It could still work, but I think you might need to, like, remove the normal attack command so that every single way of dealing damage costs MP.
Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I'd have to think about that, as it would completely change what sort of items and such to use, and rewards for the player would no longer be MP restoration items. But it's not like it's hard to find other things to give players, and it would make the battle possibly more refreshing and different to play.
author=unityauthor=LockeZHmm, that's an interesting idea. I'd have to think about that, as it would completely change what sort of items and such to use, and rewards for the player would no longer be MP restoration items. But it's not like it's hard to find other things to give players, and it would make the battle possibly more refreshing and different to play.
It depends how much you want your dungeons to be a battle of attrition that the player has to have enough resources to survive. If you make the player spend items to recover MP, though, he or she is going to try to conserve MP during fights. The player's focus won't be on winning quickly before he or she runs out of MP, so much as winning with as little MP usage as possible. It could still work, but I think you might need to, like, remove the normal attack command so that every single way of dealing damage costs MP.
You should also consider using TPs that are gained or used up depending on the choice made for the party member. You could either use them up for special skills which have a high TP cost or for non-magical/healing skills which have a lower cost. Also, have items that boost TP to speed things along for a party member. That would give your players more choices to make during their turns, especially for your CTB and make them more tactical.
RyaReisender
200
In SaGa games more often than not, the monster damage usually exceeds the power of your healing spells. Like for example you can heal for 260 HP but the boss can do two attacks per turn for 180 HP damage. So healing there is more for managing even HP distribution, as in healing weaker characters so they don't get unconcious too early, but will never increase the total remaining HP of your group on a turn. That means there is automatically some time limit until which you need to win the battle (SaGa games have full HP recovery after each battle).
