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THOUGHTS ON FAST TRAVEL.
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1
Bakutex
15
Bakutex
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CloseSo like, my game is big, big enough to have an obvious fast travel mechanic.
But in my game I also included side jobs. In which you can obviously make money. but only once. Because once you complete the job, a switch called "TIRED" activates, the only way to disable it is to rest. You can pay at the inn, or you can just rest for free at your house of course..
That's where the problem comes in..
Let's say that you made alot of money in a side job. Now you need to rest, will you pay at the inn, or just do it for free at your house?
Of course, you warp back at your hometown, you sleep, then you return at the location of the job.
Basically, you farm money. And that's something I don't want players to do..
What should I do? Should I remove the fast travel? Should I keep it? Should I change it for something that doesn't affect the game mechanic?
But in my game I also included side jobs. In which you can obviously make money. but only once. Because once you complete the job, a switch called "TIRED" activates, the only way to disable it is to rest. You can pay at the inn, or you can just rest for free at your house of course..
That's where the problem comes in..
Let's say that you made alot of money in a side job. Now you need to rest, will you pay at the inn, or just do it for free at your house?
Of course, you warp back at your hometown, you sleep, then you return at the location of the job.
Basically, you farm money. And that's something I don't want players to do..
What should I do? Should I remove the fast travel? Should I keep it? Should I change it for something that doesn't affect the game mechanic?
Maybe add a limiting factor to the Fast Travel? Like making it cost an item that's not extremely common and/or not dirt cheap?
Crystalgate
694
Is it a fade out, fade in, kind of job? If that's the case, they should not give enough money to make them worth the time past the start. If not, then the time it takes to complete them will be a limiting factor.
If you don't want the player to farm money, why even have repeatable jobs? I think it's the repeatable jobs that should go rather than fast travel.
If you don't want the player to farm money, why even have repeatable jobs? I think it's the repeatable jobs that should go rather than fast travel.
Bakutex
15
author=Crystalgate
Is it a fade out, fade in, kind of job? If that's the case, they should not give enough money to make them worth the time past the start. If not, then the time it takes to complete them will be a limiting factor.
If you don't want the player to farm money, why even have repeatable jobs? I think it's the repeatable jobs that should go rather than fast travel.
It's more like an Open-world RPG.. Sort of like skyrim/oblivion... You can upgrade houses, set up your own shop, become a guard, stuff like that you know.. Stuff that costs money...
And no, the job is actually dynamic, you have a standard pay, but if you do it really good during the actual job, you can earn even more money.
But even the dynamic job doesnt take that much to complete..
There's only one fade out fade in job. Which is the one at the left of your house
Well, maybe you can set it up so that fast travel can only be accessed by visiting a fast travel point. Kinda like a Radiata Stories, or an Assassin's Creed kinda thing.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Probably the core problem here is that you created a way of farming money that is infinitely repeatable and apparently requires almost no effort.
The fact that you limited them to once per day and then gave the player a way to advance the day for free actually doesn't matter; without their home they'd still be able to advance the day for less money than they made at the job. Changing how fast travel works or how the player's house works won't solve the problem. All you did by adding fast travel to the player's house was take a problem you already had and make it happen a little faster. The basic idea of rewarding the player with a free inn if they buy their own house makes sense; they put a lot of money into the house in order to earn it, presumably. It should cut out an expense. No big deal. What is a big deal is that that expense is the only limiting factor in farming cash.
My recommendation is to make the jobs take some effort on the part of the player. I mean, battles in most RPGs are infinitely repeatable for cash. The player can often find a zone full of enemies to fight less than 60 seconds away from a reusable free healing point, and sometimes those reusable free healing points even occur in the middle of dungeons. While this obviously still allows grinding, it isn't effortless grinding - the player has to do battles, which takes up a fair amount of time, and each one has a chance of failure. You should design your jobs like you design battles. Create challenges and risks and allow the player to fail at them. Then it doesn't matter so much that the player can do them over and over - they're essentially replacing battles.
I guess as an alternative you could make every job include some battles. Every time you chop wood, a couple of the logs turn out to be treants you have to fight! Or maybe make fast travel cause the player to get in a random battle every time they use it, possibly more than one battle if they're traveling a longer distance. These are certainly easier solutions, I guess!
The fact that you limited them to once per day and then gave the player a way to advance the day for free actually doesn't matter; without their home they'd still be able to advance the day for less money than they made at the job. Changing how fast travel works or how the player's house works won't solve the problem. All you did by adding fast travel to the player's house was take a problem you already had and make it happen a little faster. The basic idea of rewarding the player with a free inn if they buy their own house makes sense; they put a lot of money into the house in order to earn it, presumably. It should cut out an expense. No big deal. What is a big deal is that that expense is the only limiting factor in farming cash.
My recommendation is to make the jobs take some effort on the part of the player. I mean, battles in most RPGs are infinitely repeatable for cash. The player can often find a zone full of enemies to fight less than 60 seconds away from a reusable free healing point, and sometimes those reusable free healing points even occur in the middle of dungeons. While this obviously still allows grinding, it isn't effortless grinding - the player has to do battles, which takes up a fair amount of time, and each one has a chance of failure. You should design your jobs like you design battles. Create challenges and risks and allow the player to fail at them. Then it doesn't matter so much that the player can do them over and over - they're essentially replacing battles.
I guess as an alternative you could make every job include some battles. Every time you chop wood, a couple of the logs turn out to be treants you have to fight! Or maybe make fast travel cause the player to get in a random battle every time they use it, possibly more than one battle if they're traveling a longer distance. These are certainly easier solutions, I guess!
Bakutex
15
author=LockeZ
Probably the core problem here is that you created a way of farming money that is infinitely repeatable and apparently requires almost no effort.
The fact that you limited them to once per day and then gave the player a way to advance the day for free actually doesn't matter; without their home they'd still be able to advance the day for less money than they made at the job. Changing how fast travel works or how the player's house works won't solve the problem. All you did by adding fast travel to the player's house was take a problem you already had and make it happen a little faster. The basic idea of rewarding the player with a free inn if they buy their own house makes sense; they put a lot of money into the house in order to earn it, presumably. It should cut out an expense. No big deal. What is a big deal is that that expense is the only limiting factor in farming cash.
My recommendation is to make the jobs take some effort on the part of the player. I mean, battles in most RPGs are infinitely repeatable for cash. The player can often find a zone full of enemies to fight less than 60 seconds away from a reusable free healing point, and sometimes those reusable free healing points even occur in the middle of dungeons. While this obviously still allows grinding, it isn't effortless grinding - the player has to do battles, which takes up a fair amount of time, and each one has a chance of failure. You should design your jobs like you design battles. Create challenges and risks and allow the player to fail at them. Then it doesn't matter so much that the player can do them over and over - they're essentially replacing battles.
I guess as an alternative you could make every job include some battles. Every time you chop wood, a couple of the logs turn out to be treants you have to fight! Or maybe make fast travel cause the player to get in a random battle every time they use it, possibly more than one battle if they're traveling a longer distance. These are certainly easier solutions, I guess!
From all the replies I got, I found your the most helpful of them all.. And is giving me some.. Ideas... for example in the cooking side job I can make the player fight against a powerful fish! And if he loses he will only get 10% of the money.. but if he wins he will get ALOT. Besides, it's a comedy game so it might work...
Am I the only one who thinks you shouldn't punish the player for doing your shit? Seriously, you're making a free-roam, sand-box type game from the sound of things, so a fast travel is necessary in some way, shape or form.
I think your issue is the balance of money, NOT the other parts. It sounds like you have to do some repetitive minigame over and over again to farm the money. Why punish the player farther? If they want to mess about with your silly minigame so they can make cash, let them. It's no different to XP farming or item-drop harvesting - repetitive bullshit that has to be done over and over to get anything.
Give them enough money that they come out ahead, but not enough that it's easily broken. They do the 'farming' so that they can afford items to do more interesting things in the game. Why limit it? If they want to play your boring minigame 50 times, let them. The cost is the time it takes to play that annoying minigame. Time is, literally, money. It's no different than if they go through a dungeon for loot or grind on monsters. Your repetitive little minigame is the grind in this case. Don't make them pay extra for it, just make sure you have a balanced monetary reward instead.
For example: I'm a player who has just bought my own house but spent all my money on it so that I have a place to put what little shit I have. Now I'm broke and can't go on dungeon runs, so I have to find a way to get money. I go to a money farm and get my 'grind' on in a non-lethal way (do not add monsters, please. It just makes things worse when you're doing something menial enough as it is without having to prepare for battles as well. :/ ) So I'm aiming for a new sword and armour costing 1000 Gold. Every day, I get about 50 gold surplus. That means I have to play your stupid minigame 20 times to get the money I need just so I can go cave diving.
Now, say I want to save for a sword that costs 2000 gold in and of itself. That's 40 times I have to play your monotonous minigame. I haven't got time for the shit that is random monster spawning in the middle of that task, paying for an inn or having to travel on-foot back and forth to my own house.
Let people play your game their own way. Let them break it if they want. If they want to money farm, let them. It's not up to you to tell them how to play in cases like that - that's their choice. It's why Skyrim and games like it are so fun - because it lets you do what you want. If you want to chop wood for 20 days in a row, you can. If you want to steal shit instead, you can. If you want to murder a town full of people, you can. It appeals to every type of gamer - grinders, casual, explorers, hack'n'slashers... etc.
Don't put limits on things like farming. It just makes people not use the systems you've set up - and in that case, why even include it in the game if they get nothing from doing it or have to deal with stupid shit while doing it? You want them to fight monsters? Give them hunting quests. "Catch 20 rabbits before days' end and I'll give you 20% extra of what they're normally worth."
You want people to play your minigames, don't limit their ability or desire to do so.
I think your issue is the balance of money, NOT the other parts. It sounds like you have to do some repetitive minigame over and over again to farm the money. Why punish the player farther? If they want to mess about with your silly minigame so they can make cash, let them. It's no different to XP farming or item-drop harvesting - repetitive bullshit that has to be done over and over to get anything.
Give them enough money that they come out ahead, but not enough that it's easily broken. They do the 'farming' so that they can afford items to do more interesting things in the game. Why limit it? If they want to play your boring minigame 50 times, let them. The cost is the time it takes to play that annoying minigame. Time is, literally, money. It's no different than if they go through a dungeon for loot or grind on monsters. Your repetitive little minigame is the grind in this case. Don't make them pay extra for it, just make sure you have a balanced monetary reward instead.
For example: I'm a player who has just bought my own house but spent all my money on it so that I have a place to put what little shit I have. Now I'm broke and can't go on dungeon runs, so I have to find a way to get money. I go to a money farm and get my 'grind' on in a non-lethal way (do not add monsters, please. It just makes things worse when you're doing something menial enough as it is without having to prepare for battles as well. :/ ) So I'm aiming for a new sword and armour costing 1000 Gold. Every day, I get about 50 gold surplus. That means I have to play your stupid minigame 20 times to get the money I need just so I can go cave diving.
Now, say I want to save for a sword that costs 2000 gold in and of itself. That's 40 times I have to play your monotonous minigame. I haven't got time for the shit that is random monster spawning in the middle of that task, paying for an inn or having to travel on-foot back and forth to my own house.
Let people play your game their own way. Let them break it if they want. If they want to money farm, let them. It's not up to you to tell them how to play in cases like that - that's their choice. It's why Skyrim and games like it are so fun - because it lets you do what you want. If you want to chop wood for 20 days in a row, you can. If you want to steal shit instead, you can. If you want to murder a town full of people, you can. It appeals to every type of gamer - grinders, casual, explorers, hack'n'slashers... etc.
Don't put limits on things like farming. It just makes people not use the systems you've set up - and in that case, why even include it in the game if they get nothing from doing it or have to deal with stupid shit while doing it? You want them to fight monsters? Give them hunting quests. "Catch 20 rabbits before days' end and I'll give you 20% extra of what they're normally worth."
You want people to play your minigames, don't limit their ability or desire to do so.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
When you start assuming that it's tedious and that it has to be done 20-40 times per equipment upgrade, then yeah, it's going to sound pointless to limit it any further. I was assuming it was the best way of getting money in the game, and that you would do a job maybe 2-3 times to afford the new best sword.
It's a fact though that giving people unlimited freedom to do whatever they want with no consequences doesn't actually make it more enjoyable. It just makes it meaningless and unsatisfying. If the gameplay is fun then people will actually appreciate that there are limitations, because they'll enjoy overcoming them. Liberty's suggestion is pretty much exactly like complaining that enemies hit back during battles. I mean, enemies hitting back only serves to slow you down and sometimes make you fail, and that's bad because you should "let the player play how they want without you interfering with them," right?
It's a fact though that giving people unlimited freedom to do whatever they want with no consequences doesn't actually make it more enjoyable. It just makes it meaningless and unsatisfying. If the gameplay is fun then people will actually appreciate that there are limitations, because they'll enjoy overcoming them. Liberty's suggestion is pretty much exactly like complaining that enemies hit back during battles. I mean, enemies hitting back only serves to slow you down and sometimes make you fail, and that's bad because you should "let the player play how they want without you interfering with them," right?
Bakutex
15
author=Liberty
Am I the only one who thinks you shouldn't punish the player for doing your shit? Seriously, you're making a free-roam, sand-box type game from the sound of things, so a fast travel is necessary in some way, shape or form.
I think your issue is the balance of money, NOT the other parts. It sounds like you have to do some repetitive minigame over and over again to farm the money. Why punish the player farther? If they want to mess about with your silly minigame so they can make cash, let them. It's no different to XP farming or item-drop harvesting - repetitive bullshit that has to be done over and over to get anything.
Give them enough money that they come out ahead, but not enough that it's easily broken. They do the 'farming' so that they can afford items to do more interesting things in the game. Why limit it? If they want to play your boring minigame 50 times, let them. The cost is the time it takes to play that annoying minigame. Time is, literally, money. It's no different than if they go through a dungeon for loot or grind on monsters. Your repetitive little minigame is the grind in this case. Don't make them pay extra for it, just make sure you have a balanced monetary reward instead.
For example: I'm a player who has just bought my own house but spent all my money on it so that I have a place to put what little shit I have. Now I'm broke and can't go on dungeon runs, so I have to find a way to get money. I go to a money farm and get my 'grind' on in a non-lethal way (do not add monsters, please. It just makes things worse when you're doing something menial enough as it is without having to prepare for battles as well. :/ ) So I'm aiming for a new sword and armour costing 1000 Gold. Every day, I get about 50 gold surplus. That means I have to play your stupid minigame 20 times to get the money I need just so I can go cave diving.
Now, say I want to save for a sword that costs 2000 gold in and of itself. That's 40 times I have to play your monotonous minigame. I haven't got time for the shit that is random monster spawning in the middle of that task, paying for an inn or having to travel on-foot back and forth to my own house.
Let people play your game their own way. Let them break it if they want. If they want to money farm, let them. It's not up to you to tell them how to play in cases like that - that's their choice. It's why Skyrim and games like it are so fun - because it lets you do what you want. If you want to chop wood for 20 days in a row, you can. If you want to steal shit instead, you can. If you want to murder a town full of people, you can. It appeals to every type of gamer - grinders, casual, explorers, hack'n'slashers... etc.
Don't put limits on things like farming. It just makes people not use the systems you've set up - and in that case, why even include it in the game if they get nothing from doing it or have to deal with stupid shit while doing it? You want them to fight monsters? Give them hunting quests. "Catch 20 rabbits before days' end and I'll give you 20% extra of what they're normally worth."
You want people to play your minigames, don't limit their ability or desire to do so.
xD you made me feel like when my mom scolded me for not doing the homework xD Yeah dont worry dude, after playing red dead redemption, disgaea and some skyrim I FINALLY KNOW what im going to do! And I have the feeling that people will like it.. You will see it on my demo released this weekend.
Yeah, a lot of people tend to think "How do I stop a player from doing this?" instead of thinking "If a player does do this, how can I limit them without discouraging them completely, to make it fair?"
Limiting how a player plays your game is only really a good idea if you've a linear game with a challenge - definitely not for free-roam, sand-box games. It's understandable if you've a game where players need to do x, y and z to pass a part (like a pseudo puzzle - think needing to get the hookshot in Zelda to progress the plot, for example) but for a game that expects the player to choose their own way of playing it's a bad idea.
Even in linear RPGs there are people who will break the game. An example of this is in Suikoden II. There's a bug that was, apparently deliberately, left in the game where you can grind your characters up to level 30 near the start of the game and gain access to two high-powered characters before you're supposed to be. It doesn't actually change the game story much, since they're optional, but it can make the game until you gain legitimate access to that area very easy. Which isn't an issue, really - it doesn't break the story, just allows you to speed through the boring grind that is monster battles. (Frankly, I use this bug every time I play the game because I don't play for the battles. I play for the story.)
Ultimately, it is your game and your decision what you implement, I just think it's a bad idea to put effort into creating a money-raising system, then discourage people from actually using it by denying them the rewards they've earned - whether it be by spending time on a mini-game, having to beat a ton of monsters, doing side quests or looting dungeons.
Limiting how a player plays your game is only really a good idea if you've a linear game with a challenge - definitely not for free-roam, sand-box games. It's understandable if you've a game where players need to do x, y and z to pass a part (like a pseudo puzzle - think needing to get the hookshot in Zelda to progress the plot, for example) but for a game that expects the player to choose their own way of playing it's a bad idea.
Even in linear RPGs there are people who will break the game. An example of this is in Suikoden II. There's a bug that was, apparently deliberately, left in the game where you can grind your characters up to level 30 near the start of the game and gain access to two high-powered characters before you're supposed to be. It doesn't actually change the game story much, since they're optional, but it can make the game until you gain legitimate access to that area very easy. Which isn't an issue, really - it doesn't break the story, just allows you to speed through the boring grind that is monster battles. (Frankly, I use this bug every time I play the game because I don't play for the battles. I play for the story.)
Ultimately, it is your game and your decision what you implement, I just think it's a bad idea to put effort into creating a money-raising system, then discourage people from actually using it by denying them the rewards they've earned - whether it be by spending time on a mini-game, having to beat a ton of monsters, doing side quests or looting dungeons.
Is there a way that you could make fast travel only to the house cost a certain % of the player's money? If that amount turns out to be higher than paying to rest @ the inn, that'd discourage that practice. Perhaps early on, you can make it worthwhile to fast travel home compared to staying @ the inn but at some point that should change so the player would have to adapt to maximize the money they've earned.
After your demo is released and if feedback indicates that it's too easy to gain money, you might want to think about reducing the amount you get from jobs and switching to valuable item drops from enemies. I remember in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, I would make all my money off of Ebony equipment drops as opposed to quests. I'd walk out into the woods, some bandits spawn, and if I survive, I make several thousand gold. It isn't the easiest thing in the world, but compared to the reward, it's still pretty easy, plus I get some powerful equipment if I want to keep it. It's a little tougher, since you have to be strong enough to overcome those enemies, but it makes the game a little more challenging than just being able to grind for money. It was also somewhat restricted by carrying weight, so it wasn't the most game-breaking thing.
RyaReisender
200
I don't really get what the problem is with the player earning money. Isn't that how RPGs work in general? I can also go outside town, fight some monsters earn 20 gold, go back to my house, sleep for free. BAM. 20 gold more and fully healed.
Fast travel in any form is almost always a good idea.
Convenience is everything. Moreso when the player has complete control over whether to use it or not.
As for this, I don't see why you don't just make them 1-time sidequests. I guess you could also make it so that the money you get for doing the job decreases each successive time you do it, but that would be kind of lame.
EDIT: Oh wait, I am super late to the party.
Convenience is everything. Moreso when the player has complete control over whether to use it or not.
author=Bakutex
So like, my game is big, big enough to have an obvious fast travel mechanic.
But in my game I also included side jobs. In which you can obviously make money. but only once. Because once you complete the job, a switch called "TIRED" activates, the only way to disable it is to rest. You can pay at the inn, or you can just rest for free at your house of course..
As for this, I don't see why you don't just make them 1-time sidequests. I guess you could also make it so that the money you get for doing the job decreases each successive time you do it, but that would be kind of lame.
EDIT: Oh wait, I am super late to the party.
Bakutex
15
author=Isrieri
Fast travel in any form is almost always a good idea.
Convenience is everything. Moreso when the player has complete control over whether to use it or not.
author=Bakutex
So like, my game is big, big enough to have an obvious fast travel mechanic.
But in my game I also included side jobs. In which you can obviously make money. but only once. Because once you complete the job, a switch called "TIRED" activates, the only way to disable it is to rest. You can pay at the inn, or you can just rest for free at your house of course..
As for this, I don't see why you don't just make them 1-time sidequests. I guess you could also make it so that the money you get for doing the job decreases each successive time you do it, but that would be kind of lame.
EDIT: Oh wait, I am super late to the party.
Yeah your kind of late.. A bit.. LOL the whole mechanic was changed now XD
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