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WHAT ELEMENTS FROM EXISTING GAMES WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE REUSED?
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Closeauthor=Desertopa
I'll add another idea from Suikoden III (which manages to be one of my top games for providing interesting ideas I'd like to see elsewhere, above many games which I actually enjoyed more.) The actual level up mechanics of the game rendered it fairly moot, but I liked the fact that the main characters all start significantly above level 1, so that when you're introduced to characters who're actually totally lacking in combat experience, there's a clear and significant difference. A lot of games feature protagonists who start out as badass army officers or knights or whatever who're actually about as un-badass as it's possible to be in gameplay terms, and I'd like it if more games would show you tangible evidence that your character doesn't actually start at the bottom of the totem pole.
I'm all for more stuff like this. I think it builds immersion to reinforce story points through gameplay. It also bothers me when you fight someone who has, for example, an outrageous amount of HP and access to killer moves. Then they later join you and have roughly the same HP as everyone else and either don't have the moves or they've been significantly depowered. When something like that is done, just putting in some small reason why they were overly powerful (or why they aren't now) can really lessen the immersion-breaking of that.
RyaReisender
200
Talking about that, I like it when a more experienced character joins, he also has a higher level. For example in Phantasy Star IV if you have someone joining who is completely inexperienced in battle he will join at level 1, while that super legendary magician join with level 18 while you are just around level 5.
On the other hand I also like it when all new characters start at level 1, even further into the game. Often character who join later will get stronger at the same level, but it then requires some time investment. But it's fun to see how the characters grow and what their strong points are in the end.
On the other hand I also like it when all new characters start at level 1, even further into the game. Often character who join later will get stronger at the same level, but it then requires some time investment. But it's fun to see how the characters grow and what their strong points are in the end.
Desertopa
775
author=RyaReisender
I wouldn't generally say that puzzles are a concept I'd like to see, many games are better off without them, especially if they are just push the boxes on the switches and stuff like that. Well executed and uniquely dungeon-themed puzzles can be fun, though.
I think my personal preference would be to have occasional puzzle solving in the mandatory portion of the game, but make the puzzles things which, in the context of the story, are not puzzles deliberately designed by some agent. For instance, you have to figure something out by reconciling multiple pieces of information in an unintuitive way, or figure out how you can properly reinforce a damaged building so you can get through it without destroying it, etc. These help give the player the impression that their characters aren't simply solving every problem with brute force, and also acculturate them to the fact that the game actually contains puzzles. But these mandatory puzzles are not intended to be seriously difficult.
Then, in optional content (side dungeons and such,) I'd implement much harder puzzles, some of which may actually be deliberately designed puzzles in the context of the story. A guide shouldn't be necessary to progress through the plot, but if you want to access the optional stuff, you have to decide whether you're going to let it be a reward for extra effort, or you're actually going to crack that guide open.
author=RyaReisender
Also what I forgot to mention:
SaGaFrontier - LP system - You have HP and LP. If your HP reach 0, you become unconcious and lose 1 LP. If you are hit while being unconcious you lose 1 LP. At the end of the battle you fully recover HP. This is an amazing system that combines "every battle is a challenge" with "resource management".
Generally I prefer "every battle is a challenge", so full recovery after every battle is pretty much one of the best imaginable systems for me.
I think making every battle a challenge without implementing an overarching challenge of resource management between them works best in games where the battles are not numerous and not repeated (the player won't have the opportunity to grind on the same fights over and over again.)
To quote a bit from this Final Fantasy XIII review
In Final Fantasy XIII, your team is automatically revitalized to full HP and status neutrality after every battle, nullifying the whole "resource management" angle of the game. And without that, there is absolutely no point in fighting the same battle ten times in a row between one cutscene trigger spot and the next. In a game set up like Final Fantasy XIII, once you figure out how to beat the "two wolves and a soldier" enemy group, that should be it. You've solved it. But Final Fantasy XIII forces you to push through The Tube and do it again. And again. And again.
When there's no element of resource management between multiple battles, then unless every battle is unique you're going to be putting your players through the same challenge repeatedly.
When you add the element of resource management though, added threats become cumulative rather than redundant. Personally, I'm a fan of the combat system used in Grandia Xtreme (the game was pretty much built around the combat system, after all.) Every battle takes a nontrivial amount of your characters' resources to complete, and the challenge revolves around preserving those resources over the course of the dungeon. You're not even given free healing before fighting bosses, because it would run counter to the challenge of making your resources persist until you've navigated the entire threat.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=RyaReisenderI don't think adding grinding just so you can create a little bit of mystery to the characters when they first join is a good tradeoff. What's the actual point here? I'm missing something.
On the other hand I also like it when all new characters start at level 1, even further into the game. Often character who join later will get stronger at the same level, but it then requires some time investment. But it's fun to see how the characters grow and what their strong points are in the end.
Desertopa
775
I think Magikarp Power is probably what he has in mind. You make the character weak to start with, so players have an incentive not to use them, but offer a big reward for those who choose to challenge themselves by using them anyway.
I think this works best in strategy RPGs, because it usually turns the use of weak characters into genuine self handicapping, and requires real effort to keep the characters alive and active through battles in order to cultivate their strength, whereas in a pure RPG, powering them up usually just amounts to a lot of monotonous grinding which doesn't meaningfully threaten the party.
I believe the Fire Emblem games use this extensively, but I haven't played most of them. I'd say Brigandine is an example of a game which pulled it off well, while Cloud in Final Fantasy Tactics, with its experience accumulation which barely scales to level differences between characters, exemplifies really bad implementation.
The only game I can think of off the top of my head where all new characters start off at level 1, and new characters are introduced regularly through the game, is Valkyrie Profile on Hard mode, which actually pulled it off quite well; it helped that it gave you a mechanic which allowed you to stockpile some experience and hand some out to new characters to get them up to scratch before they even participate in their first combat.
I think this works best in strategy RPGs, because it usually turns the use of weak characters into genuine self handicapping, and requires real effort to keep the characters alive and active through battles in order to cultivate their strength, whereas in a pure RPG, powering them up usually just amounts to a lot of monotonous grinding which doesn't meaningfully threaten the party.
I believe the Fire Emblem games use this extensively, but I haven't played most of them. I'd say Brigandine is an example of a game which pulled it off well, while Cloud in Final Fantasy Tactics, with its experience accumulation which barely scales to level differences between characters, exemplifies really bad implementation.
The only game I can think of off the top of my head where all new characters start off at level 1, and new characters are introduced regularly through the game, is Valkyrie Profile on Hard mode, which actually pulled it off quite well; it helped that it gave you a mechanic which allowed you to stockpile some experience and hand some out to new characters to get them up to scratch before they even participate in their first combat.
RyaReisender
200
I liked full HP recovery in FFXIII, but it's true that it signicantly lacks a big variety in encounters (something that many RPGs actually lack! especially those the past 10 years).
I think there are actually quite some RPGs where all character start at level 1. Phantasy Star II comes to mind first (which made quite good use of them because depending on dungeon certain characters are clearly better than others). I could probably find more if I went through all the games.
That's because unlike me you see grinding as something negative.
I think there are actually quite some RPGs where all character start at level 1. Phantasy Star II comes to mind first (which made quite good use of them because depending on dungeon certain characters are clearly better than others). I could probably find more if I went through all the games.
I don't think adding grinding just so you can create a little bit of mystery to the characters when they first join is a good tradeoff. What's the actual point here? I'm missing something.
That's because unlike me you see grinding as something negative.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Everything you like is so bad.
author=Desertopa
I believe the Fire Emblem games use this extensively, but I haven't played most of them.
The best example for that is Fire Emblem 7 with the character Nino. You get here a couple levels before the final battle, and she's a level 5 base class. She has some of the best stat growth and max stats of all magic-users, but getting her to the max level without her dying was a challenge. Also, perma-death was mandatory in that one.
author=Crystalgate
The way you switch characters mid-combat in Final Fantasy X. I have seen a bunch of CTB scripts, but I feel that it was the character switching that made FFX's combat into what it was. Further, I think that FFX only scratched the surface of what it's system could accomplish. I would really have liked to see more games use it and explore the possibilities that system presents.
Mana Khemia I & II used a much more sophisticated version of that system. You could switch on a character's turn, or you could switch right before an enemy attack. The incoming character would take the hit, and with every character having unlockable switch-in abilities, it added strategy to it. If your main damage-dealer was low on health, they could still come out to fight, and then switch out once the enemy attacked. You could also switch in during your attacks, and the incoming character would also attack, and then stay out. There were also switch-in abilities for attacking.
I think Mana Khemia had a really good handle on a lot of features, like item crafting, strategic battles (Especially the second game, with its Hard Mode feature), optional sidequests that had meaning (Several endings! Yay! Also, some skills and hidden potential were unlocked this way), some decent challenging endgame content, and a central hub that you could either choose to explore or navigate with a menu. Also, skill points.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
I'd love to see more games with just exploration as an element. Yume Nikki and Symphony of the Night are two examples: there's lots of little neat side areas that have little or no real contribution to the gameplay but look cool and are fun to find. It makes even doing a slog through a game feel rewarding, just because you found something different.
author=JosephSeraph
I just have to state that i'm utterly saddened by the non-existance of games similar to PE.
The only one I can think of is Koudelka for the PS1, even so it's not exactly the same, since the setting is in 1950 and the gameplay is HORRID. (beautiful graphics with PS2 cutscenes, but HORRID)
Absolutely! Parasite Eve and PE2 are among my absolute favorites. I don't understand why the series never made it past PS1.
As for my ten cents added to this topic:
I put as much value in story and story mechanics as I do on the battle and menu systems. One of my favorite elements comes from the Elder Scrolls series, specifically the guilds. Special perks for joining guilds may seem useless and even counterproductive since your character is being forced to pay an entry fee for the items and game elements that you should have direct access to anyway, but it gives the player a greater sense of being apart of that world. In other words, the concept of guilds and clubs lends to the idea of immersion, in my opinion.
lumaki
0
This isn't exactly gameplay related, more story-related, but I love when games pay a lot of attention to their NPCs - give them a reason to be there! It really helps the setting and overall atmosphere. I guess what I'd love to see again is a diverse cast of NPCs with quests/backstories that are character-specific and help you discover more of the world. BoFIV and Legend of Mana did this really well (though the latter had a terribly weak main plot). Heck, even FFXII had okay NPCs.
I want to see more effort in world-building and not just in a bunch of stupid logs explaining all the shiz (I'm looking at you FFXIII). It's the old 'show, not tell' thing. NPCs used to help with a lot of the 'showing' but this generation kind of killed them off for obvious reasons - you know a character isn't important when their polycount is low and they're just a recolor of another NPC. XD
Oh, and hand-painted/pre-rendered backgrounds, please. I miss them. Stylistically it can be a great choice. Solotorobo and Bravely Default had some awesome backgrounds if we're talking about more recent games and how they could be implemented.
Haha, a more gameplay-related thing: I liked FFXII's bazaar system. It was an interesting idea and could have been better executed had there been more clues as to how to unlock certain items without relying on a guide or sifting through bestiary logs (if those even hinted at all). More clues and better incentives would have encouraged players to loot from enemies and obtain better equipment. On my first playthrough, I just sold whatever enemies dropped - didn't really try manipulating the bazaar at all. /:
I want to see more effort in world-building and not just in a bunch of stupid logs explaining all the shiz (I'm looking at you FFXIII). It's the old 'show, not tell' thing. NPCs used to help with a lot of the 'showing' but this generation kind of killed them off for obvious reasons - you know a character isn't important when their polycount is low and they're just a recolor of another NPC. XD
Oh, and hand-painted/pre-rendered backgrounds, please. I miss them. Stylistically it can be a great choice. Solotorobo and Bravely Default had some awesome backgrounds if we're talking about more recent games and how they could be implemented.
Haha, a more gameplay-related thing: I liked FFXII's bazaar system. It was an interesting idea and could have been better executed had there been more clues as to how to unlock certain items without relying on a guide or sifting through bestiary logs (if those even hinted at all). More clues and better incentives would have encouraged players to loot from enemies and obtain better equipment. On my first playthrough, I just sold whatever enemies dropped - didn't really try manipulating the bazaar at all. /:
First: FF6 Multi party battles for RPGs, it could be used even better in games where the plot sets you in a war and you have a verty very large cast of characters as your army (like Suikoden)
Super Robot Wars spirit skills: Skills which can be used as manny times in a single turn as you wish, as long you have enough spirit points for them. In general, they are buffs, debuffs and some healing ones as well :)
Super Robot Wars spirit skills: Skills which can be used as manny times in a single turn as you wish, as long you have enough spirit points for them. In general, they are buffs, debuffs and some healing ones as well :)
RyaReisender
200
author=Sooz
I'd love to see more games with just exploration as an element. Yume Nikki and Symphony of the Night are two examples: there's lots of little neat side areas that have little or no real contribution to the gameplay but look cool and are fun to find. It makes even doing a slog through a game feel rewarding, just because you found something different.
There have been quite some of these types of games recently. On first thought Miserere and Dear Esther come to mind.
This isn't exactly gameplay related, more story-related, but I love when games pay a lot of attention to their NPCs - give them a reason to be there! It really helps the setting and overall atmosphere. I guess what I'd love to see again is a diverse cast of NPCs with quests/backstories that are character-specific and help you discover more of the world. BoFIV and Legend of Mana did this really well (though the latter had a terribly weak main plot). Heck, even FFXII had okay NPCs.
I want to see more effort in world-building and not just in a bunch of stupid logs explaining all the shiz (I'm looking at you FFXIII). It's the old 'show, not tell' thing. NPCs used to help with a lot of the 'showing' but this generation kind of killed them off for obvious reasons - you know a character isn't important when their polycount is low and they're just a recolor of another NPC. XD
I guess these things are all present in many western RPGs. Especially all those 2D-ish ones like the Spiderweb games.
Oh, and hand-painted/pre-rendered backgrounds, please. I miss them. Stylistically it can be a great choice. Solotorobo and Bravely Default had some awesome backgrounds if we're talking about more recent games and how they could be implemented.
I'm not sure if we mean the same thing, but I generally want that old "You walk on pre-rendered pictures" style back. May it be hand-drawn with water colors like in SaGaFrontier 2 or photo-realistic like in FFVII or Star Ocean.
I think that is my favorite "walk map" style. I like it a lot when the camera is fixed than when you have to turn it around all the time.
First: FF6 Multi party battles for RPGs, it could be used even better in games where the plot sets you in a war and you have a verty very large cast of characters as your army (like Suikoden)
True! This idea is pretty cool but not really used too well. I guess that one FFVI Locke-themed bonus dungeon executed it pretty good, though.
Reading FF6 and "multi" makes me think another thing I would like to see:
- RPGs where a second player can take control of half the characters in battle (in FF6 you could set it so that in battles you can enter commands with a second gamepad too)
Also:
- A versus and co-op mode in SRPGs! Shining Force 2 had this as a cheat, but I'd like to see it implemented properly, including allowing the 2nd player to move the enemy forces rather than them being moved by the AI
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=RyaReisenderauthor=SoozThere have been quite some of these types of games recently. On first thought Miserere and Dear Esther come to mind.
I'd love to see more games with just exploration as an element. Yume Nikki and Symphony of the Night are two examples: there's lots of little neat side areas that have little or no real contribution to the gameplay but look cool and are fun to find. It makes even doing a slog through a game feel rewarding, just because you found something different.
DE didn't really have that; it was fairly linear. (It's also arguable whether it counts as a game, but I guess that argument doesn't belong here.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=SoozThat seems to be one of the main selling points of, say, Skyrim, for example. A lot of open world games, really.
I'd love to see more games with just exploration as an element. Yume Nikki and Symphony of the Night are two examples: there's lots of little neat side areas that have little or no real contribution to the gameplay but look cool and are fun to find. It makes even doing a slog through a game feel rewarding, just because you found something different.
Though personally, since we're talking about a video game, I prefer finding stuff to do as well as stuff to see. Though sometimes the "doing stuff" aspect gets shoehorned in awkwardly, and you end up with awful shit like the Riddler's riddles in the Arkham games. Please just have a battle take place near the neat scenery or something, instead of making me switch camera modes and zoom in on the neat object in question and flag it as "seen" to get 1/70 of a sidequest done, good lord. There's an example of a designer trying to reuse an element from other games, but utterly failing to understand why people liked it in those other games.
author=RyaReisenderI liked this feature, but the problem with it was that half the game was spent outside of battle, and the second person couldn't control anything at all during that time. I'd love to see some sort of hybrid of FF6 style 2-player battles and Secret of Mana style 2-player exploration. You'd probably need touch encounters, but it would be cool.
Reading FF6 and "multi" makes me think another thing I would like to see:
- RPGs where a second player can take control of half the characters in battle (in FF6 you could set it so that in battles you can enter commands with a second gamepad too)
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=LockeZ
Though personally, since we're talking about a video game, I prefer finding stuff to do as well as stuff to see. Though sometimes the "doing stuff" aspect gets shoehorned in awkwardly, and you end up with awful shit like the Riddler's riddles in the Arkham games. Please just have a battle take place near the neat scenery or something, instead of making me switch camera modes and zoom in on the neat object in question and flag it as "seen" to get 1/70 of a sidequest done, good lord. There's an example of a designer trying to reuse an element from other games, but utterly failing to understand why people liked it in those other games.
Yeah, I tend to assume that the DoStuff elements would be in there (at least you get an item or something), though that is apparently a foolish assumption.
Admittedly, I've always been appreciative of nice art in games, so something pointless but pretty is its own reward for me. vOv (Some of my favorite examples are from SotN- the confession booth in the chapel and the table and chairs in the library, where you can sit down. You can get items there, but they're really just there to add to the environment.)
I wouldn't mind a return to more static camera areas for games where it would work. Knowing what the player can see and not giving them the freedom to move the camera whereever can mean saving a lot of effort and time designing areas to look good and work well from all kinds of angles. Plus now you can use the 3d technology and power to give your areas fancy dynamic effects and you don't even need to use a prerendered video to do them! Pillars of Eternity and Divinity Original Sin are both using this technique and from what I've seen it looks good and they aren't blowing wads of cash just to design their environments.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Silent Hill did a great job with a static camera in several points. There was real cinematographic thought put into certain scenes that weren't even cutscenes.
