ADDING TO MANY COOL SCRIPTS TO YOU XP / VX / ACE GAME
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A friend of mine has now given up on his project he was working on for almost a year, why you ask? He fell victimto the eye candy that is cool scripting. He wanted to throw everything under the sun in his game. Monster book, blue magics, crafting, materia... you name it, he had it in there. He told me he couldn't resist because they are all really nice things to have. He would spend SO MUCH time on fine tunning the scripts, that his story was often at a crawl in terms of production. So I told him "Why don't you just get rid of a few things instead of scrapping all your work?" He said he gets down in the dumps when he sees all the cool things and they can't be in his game due to not being able to manage them. I told him he can't have it both ways apparently. So, what do you all think about this.
Being one that shuns scripting almost to the point of phobia, I think this is a terrible, terrible idea. Though, I guess it's a learning experience tweaking all those systems to figure out how they work?
Your friend doesn't seem capable of making a game, then. Gimmicks are fun, but too many of them aren't going to help the game. The story could get a pass if it's average and the gameplay is good enough to make up. But if he is just checking a list of things without caring if they make the game fun or not, then it's pointless. :|
I suffer from this problem a LOT.
My modern era game was PLAUGED by this, and it got so overcomplicated that I had to shelf it.
Ironically, my current project has more scripts than the modern one.....But most of them are cosmetic, or are only required for one small thing and need no tweaking, or are just really really simple. So far, I don't think I'm falling quite into the same trap.
A lot of the story is outlined, my characters are all in mind, and my gameplay system feels a lot less complicated, while being a LOT more open.
My modern era game was PLAUGED by this, and it got so overcomplicated that I had to shelf it.
Ironically, my current project has more scripts than the modern one.....But most of them are cosmetic, or are only required for one small thing and need no tweaking, or are just really really simple. So far, I don't think I'm falling quite into the same trap.
A lot of the story is outlined, my characters are all in mind, and my gameplay system feels a lot less complicated, while being a LOT more open.
I've found it's generally a good idea to pick one "gimmick" and work the rest of your scripts and game around that. The little things are fine - A minimap here, a caterpillar script there - but when you start adding too many fancy scripts, it gets needlessly complex. Pick one "big" script (like, for example, a skill combining script) and run with that. Make thousands of unique combinations if you want. Refine that single script and make it a primary feature in your game and you won't need tons of other scripts to make the game good.
Its very easy to fall into this problem, considering he started with RM2K3. He was like "Wow, all this stuff is so much easier now." Which, as true as that is... it also makes you lose track of your main goal. I think scripts are meant to be used in moderation. A game with TO MANY features commercial or not (Disgaea being the exception) is a no no for me.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Putting a system in your game because it exists is possibly the dumbest design paradigm I've ever heard in my life? That's like putting every single thing in your refrigerator on your lunch, because it's all there and it's so easy. The ketchup and mustard and relish, the salad dressing, the butter, the eggs, the bacon, the maple syrup, the diet pepsi, the steak sauce, both brands of barbeque sauce, the fresh mushrooms, the spinach salad, the leftover mashed potatoes and gravy, the bottled water, the balsamic vinegar, EVERYTHING GOES ON!
Maybe, instead of doing that, you should decide "I'm going to make a really good smoky-flavored hot dog" and only put on the toppings that make sense for that? I mean holy shit. Some toppings are obvious like mustard and relish and grilled onions, and I can totally see see using certain types of bbq sauce or bacon, but you are not improving your smoky tennessee hot dog by putting strawberry yogurt or a cherry on it. And you are not improving your mostly-linear strategic-planning-oriented JRPG by putting timed-button-press critical hits or a cartography system in it.
Maybe, instead of doing that, you should decide "I'm going to make a really good smoky-flavored hot dog" and only put on the toppings that make sense for that? I mean holy shit. Some toppings are obvious like mustard and relish and grilled onions, and I can totally see see using certain types of bbq sauce or bacon, but you are not improving your smoky tennessee hot dog by putting strawberry yogurt or a cherry on it. And you are not improving your mostly-linear strategic-planning-oriented JRPG by putting timed-button-press critical hits or a cartography system in it.
author=LockeZ
Putting a system in your game because it exists is possibly the dumbest design paradigm I've ever heard in my life? That's like putting every single thing in your refrigerator on your lunch, because it's all there and it's so easy. The ketchup and mustard and relish, the salad dressing, the butter, the eggs, the bacon, the maple syrup, the diet pepsi, the steak sauce, both brands of barbeque sauce, the fresh mushrooms, the spinach salad, the leftover mashed potatoes and gravy, the bottled water, the balsamic vinegar, EVERYTHING GOES ON!
Good god, imagining that horrible monstrosity almost makes me lose my appetite.
Anyway, adding scripts just for the sake of adding them is stupid. If you're someone who decides that they're going to add acheivements, a bestiary, blue magic, custom skill learning system, crafting, parallax mapping, and several minigames just for the sake of doing so, then... well, your game is going to be a mess. Your effort's going to be scattered all over the place and, because of that, your game as a whole won't look like it has much effort put into it because you'll be spreading yourself too thin over tons and tons of features and scripts. It will also take forever to get ANYTHING done, and chances are you'll just end up losing motivation long before you even have anything really worth showing off to people.
author=LockeZ
Putting a system in your game because it exists is possibly the dumbest design paradigm I've ever heard in my life? That's like putting every single thing in your refrigerator on your lunch, because it's all there and it's so easy. The ketchup and mustard and relish, the salad dressing, the butter, the eggs, the bacon, the maple syrup, the diet pepsi, the steak sauce, both brands of barbeque sauce, the fresh mushrooms, the spinach salad, the leftover mashed potatoes and gravy, the bottled water, the balsamic vinegar, EVERYTHING GOES ON!
someone on the radio here actually did this. He put everything in a blender and whizzed it up. Meat pie, chips, tomato sauce, yoghurt, ice cream, relish, etc, etc.
He nearly threw up the moment he tried it.
And yes, it's a good metaphor for RM. Is it adding anything? In reality, you should be writing a basic outline for your game before beginning development and then tailoring/tweaking it to conform to what is actually possible, provided you don't have a scriptor of your own. Just dumping things into a project isn't going to work. Really, it never does, and it makes it feel clunky and uncomfortable.
I agree with everything being said (thanks LockeZ for ruining my appetite lol.) Out of curiosity though, what makes it work for Disgaea in your opinion? For anyone who has played the series (not to brag, but I beat all of them except D2) knows the series is insane with the amount of things you can do. Dojos, deep character building, item world (random maps), online battles, level 9999, combo system, geo system and the list goes on. In my opinion Disgaea presents it in a way that makes sense. It doesn't throw everything at you at one time expecting you to pick it up right away. Also to the point, Disgaea isn't know for having deep stories, but still. A lot of times, RM'ers are a one man team. It's hard to be ambitious and realistic at the same time especially when your help is slim to none.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
For all the stuff you can do in Disgaea it's also very limited. There's zero exploration and it's completely linear. Every skill is learned the same way, and equipment only ever affects your stats and nothing else. It doesn't have CGI cut scenes or even basic 3D graphics.
All the stuff it does have works together to create a coherent experience. Its goal is to create a tactical RPG, where the combat is built around positioning to a greater degree than most tactical RPGs, and where the planning portion of the game is built around giving you freedom to make your own team and unlock types of team members as the game goes on. To do the second part it needs to have a lot of creative methods of grinding up those new team members - this is where a lot of the weird systems come into play. They picked very carefully what they needed to add to the game to make their basic plan work, what systems would fill certain gaps that the game would have without it, and they didn't really add anything else besides that.
For example, the ability to pick up and throw your characters adds an extra dimension to combat. The colored tiles and gems that that grant effects also add an extra dimension to combat. And the wild target zones of your attacks, which might hit the outline of a heart-shaped area in front of you or a 3x3 cross that's exactly six tiles away from you, also add another dimension to combat. But these three dimensions play off each-other. Either one by itself would feel flat, but they work together to make very movement-oriented battles. The character-tossing fills a hole in the design of the colortile system, letting you affect enemies as well as yourself, and also letting you use positioning to use characters as pseudo-tanks and glass cannons while still making use of the colortiles. Etc.
All the stuff it does have works together to create a coherent experience. Its goal is to create a tactical RPG, where the combat is built around positioning to a greater degree than most tactical RPGs, and where the planning portion of the game is built around giving you freedom to make your own team and unlock types of team members as the game goes on. To do the second part it needs to have a lot of creative methods of grinding up those new team members - this is where a lot of the weird systems come into play. They picked very carefully what they needed to add to the game to make their basic plan work, what systems would fill certain gaps that the game would have without it, and they didn't really add anything else besides that.
For example, the ability to pick up and throw your characters adds an extra dimension to combat. The colored tiles and gems that that grant effects also add an extra dimension to combat. And the wild target zones of your attacks, which might hit the outline of a heart-shaped area in front of you or a 3x3 cross that's exactly six tiles away from you, also add another dimension to combat. But these three dimensions play off each-other. Either one by itself would feel flat, but they work together to make very movement-oriented battles. The character-tossing fills a hole in the design of the colortile system, letting you affect enemies as well as yourself, and also letting you use positioning to use characters as pseudo-tanks and glass cannons while still making use of the colortiles. Etc.
lockez has pretty much said what i would say ("everything should work together as a cohesive whole"), so i'm just going to add the suggestion that you write up a design doc before working on a game. not like a fifty+ page outline necessarily (although you COULD), but jot down what your goals are, how you want the gameplay to unfold, and where complexity should be.
having a specific vision helps you decide whether to keep or remove certain gameplay elements, and design parts of those elements (i.e. which skills the tank gets in your rpg, or how many guns your hero has in an fps, etc.) to better suit the goal of the game. this helps you... wait for it... create a game where everything works together as a cohesive whole! wow.
i mean, if you just want to fuck around with RM* and make a short story to get out some idea and not really take the design part seriously, go ahead and just throw some shit in. make your boat float! but if you're looking to actually finish a project of decent quality in a respectable amount of time, outlines and design docs are tremendous aids.
tl;dr: ask yourself if what you want to add suits the goals you have set for the gameplay, and if it doesn't, tweak or remove the element.
having a specific vision helps you decide whether to keep or remove certain gameplay elements, and design parts of those elements (i.e. which skills the tank gets in your rpg, or how many guns your hero has in an fps, etc.) to better suit the goal of the game. this helps you... wait for it... create a game where everything works together as a cohesive whole! wow.
i mean, if you just want to fuck around with RM* and make a short story to get out some idea and not really take the design part seriously, go ahead and just throw some shit in. make your boat float! but if you're looking to actually finish a project of decent quality in a respectable amount of time, outlines and design docs are tremendous aids.
tl;dr: ask yourself if what you want to add suits the goals you have set for the gameplay, and if it doesn't, tweak or remove the element.
I didn't understand the throw mechanic and when it came to doing that level where you have to enter the starship I ended up finding a safe spot and spamming the lvl100 turrets with my Star Mage. I used up every single MP regenerative item in my inventory to do it. He leveled up like 30 levels.
Turns out you are just supposed to stack throw your way to the exit :x
Turns out you are just supposed to stack throw your way to the exit :x
author=kentona
I didn't understand the throw mechanic and when it came to doing that level where you have to enter the starship I ended up finding a safe spot and spamming the lvl100 turrets with my Star Mage. I used up every single MP regenerative item in my inventory to do it. He leveled up like 30 levels.
Turns out you are just supposed to stack throw your way to the exit :x
Thats pure genius, never would have thought to do it that way.
There is a difference between not be able to adapt the scripts to your game and bugged scripts because the man I debugged a LOT of scripts and adapt some. So no, that's not entirely your friend's fault. I can assure you that. He just needs to concentrate on what is important in his game and most importantly HOW PLAYER IS GOING TO USE THESE SYSTEM.
I am saying this because a lot of mmropgs and aka the famous Skyrim have a lot of systems that ain't that needed (really) in their game. None told them to throw these away.
I am saying this because a lot of mmropgs and aka the famous Skyrim have a lot of systems that ain't that needed (really) in their game. None told them to throw these away.






















