I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU ALL, BUT A FEMALE SQUALL FOR FF8 WOULD HAVE BEEN COOL.

Posts

pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
author=alterego
@pianotm: Let me just say that I can. After all, it's not like I'm incapable of empathy or haven't experienced prejudice myself. But at the end of the day I think I can look at things objectively. I sure do wonder sometimes if this is too much to ask from others, though. But I just ponder that if only everyone else could too, there would be no judge in the world who would let a rapist go free... But I'm not really touching that or any of the other subjects you brought up because, they have little to nothing to do with my post. So, yeah.


Excellent, then I still agree with Liberty. There is no way you can justify either of those drawings as being in character with Squall, and I do not think FFVIII would have been better for it. Further, a female Squall that properly did justice to the character would have, in and of itself, no enriching effect.

The exception lies in Rinoa, who would have had to have been a masculine version of the rebel leader, woefully unequipped to lead a rebellion against Galbadia but trying his damnedest anyway. That would have been an interesting element to see.
pianotm
The TM is for Totally Magical.
32378
Sorry, my computer vomited.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=alterego
But I'm not really touching that or any of the other subjects you brought up because, they have little to nothing to do with my post. So, yeah.


Quick question: are you flame-baiting?
@pianotm: That's cool, then. For the record, I never tried to justify those drawings. If anything, the point I was trying to make earlier on this thread is that those were just the work of horny fan-artists. Actual game developers working on an adaptation of the game would know better than to stray away from Squall's character to design her appearance (or at least one hopes so).

@Corfaisus: Quick question: How is that flame-baiting? I was talking strictly about fictional characters, and he retaliates with tales about failings in the judicial system, reproaches about Mr_D's attitude, religious dogma, and whatnot. If there's a relation between all those topics and anything I said (which is debatable) it is a loose one. Hence my wording: "little to nothing".

Edit: @Slashphoenix: I understand that. And I hope you know I understand that. You and I have discussed this countless times before.
slash
APATHY IS FOR COWARDS
4158
author=alterego
I was talking strictly about fictional characters, and he retaliates with tales about failings in the judicial system, reproaches about Mr_D's attitude, religious dogma, and whatnot. If there's a relation between all those topics and anything I said (which is debatable) it is a loose one. Hence my wording: "little to nothing".

The relationship between fictional characters and how people view women (or anyone) is this: Fictional characters are based on humans and human experiences. That's what makes them powerful and capable of stirring emotions; that's why we can empathize with someone in a movie or a game that's down on their luck, or falling in love, or nervous about an exam - we've been there ourselves, we understand.

But, because they're all based on human experiences, fictional characters can also reveal what we think about other humans, and often we reveal that we frequently (and often subconsciously) only think of women as support to men. That's why people are irked that so many times women exist in video games only to get captured by the villain, or to wear a bikini.

There is a relationship between how we, as creators, write our characters and the way we treat our fellow humans, and it's important enough that, as creators, it's our duty to think critically about the way we write and how it might affect others. You're free to do what you want, and you don't have to undercut your creations to please others, but at the very least, you should consider how your work influences the world.
Solitayre
Circumstance penalty for being the bard.
18257
I'm not going to lock this, but I suggest you guys all take a deep breath.
@MrDetective what are you doing! D:< I don't know what did you get in but just apologize or nod and run or just ignore them, or throw them money or anything but you are losing very interesting argument, and I already save you a seat in front row and buy you an ice-cream, so focus XD

@PianoTM, don't be so harsh on MrD, he just suffer a little of bad common sense on the internet, everyones makes mistakes like that all the time, even when they though they got used to the internet (lies!)

Also, I see your point, but I think both genders suffer a lot in terms of identity, in times of samurais, women would get raped and lot stuff, very frequent, so having a man would implied his protection despite of the man having lots of women, so the samurai would send his women to the kitchen while the women would send him to fight, if someone broke this it would be big dishonor, so everyone take their role and deal with it. Now it still happen a lot of times, but the man would go to work and said I have to paid my wife shit, while the woman would be doing domestic labor saying I am cleaning my husband shit because people lives are driven by economical roles and no so much by social roles, social roles can be really tirefull because of this, they are just polite attempts to be better in your economical role. So woman do not longer require man help but to reproduce, so this question has being since before history, what is a man and what the woman is for him? and vice-versa, so in these times, people are very cold and selfish since they can do anything by themselves, so a lot just see the opposite gender as something to fuck, so I think society is not giving women more value, is denigrating both genders.

So I really like Mulan the disney movie, it was plain obvious to see that it wanted to give women a voice and stuff, but the movie is so heart-whelming and so right on the difference about a woman and a man without trying to put a barrier of saying, man is bad, woman need their rights.
-Mulan doesn't go to war because of wanting to have the same things as a man, but to protect his dad. And his Father main reason to stop her is because she is her daugther, then of course, is: women can't go to war, that is ridiculous, which is not implied in a sense of saying woman doesn't have value, but that they have value in other places. woman are following their traditions and they see quite happy of it, man also have their good taste in life in the tradition that they receive because of their gender.
-Mulan end beings the hero instead of a guy, but they don't forget she is a woman so when she starts training she is lacking a lot of things, things which commonly more easy to do for men than for woman, again, I am generalizing /1/ and his friends end being disguised as Geishas, saying, there are differences, but sure they can do things of the other gender, might be unorthodox but they can do it and is not bad at all.
-Mulan doesn't stop being less femenine, when she is taking a bath she behaves like a woman in her privacy, and she is naked and looks really cute, and I am too used to anime so I could even said she is sexy, but no one says, uuuh she is naked she is a slut, she doesn't lose a bit of dignity. The same goes with the bisexual of Li Shang /2/, even Mulan is like, damn! he is hot, but he imposes respect, but acts indecisive and shy when he returns a helmet to mulan, as well a whole army sings a corny song dedicated to woman.
-When they found Mulan is a girl, they don't go, it's a bitch, she can't fight, but it is a sensation of shame a disappointing about knowing the truth, since they really appreciate her.

So even if it is a kids movie, I really think it make justice to give both gender a lot of value and mix them together without forgetting the big and little differences, rather than separate and give more importance to one side.

Not that much of relevant information.
/1/(Woman can tolerate more the pain in PERCENTAGE, thing people tend to miss, meaning, there are more woman that tolerate the pain more than the average man, but there are man that deals with pain just fine and woman that scream for anything, Mothers just receives a whole career on dealing with pain so it will be hard to find one that still have a hard time.)
/2/He can't fool me, he was into Mulan when she was a man and when she was a gal.
^ Agreed with Solitayre ^

Let's try to keep this friendly-like-ish. Or as close as is able when it comes to hard topics like this.

Frankly, if you want to design your female characters to walk around naked, okay. Just come up with a reason that it fits in the world lore at least. That is your prerogative as a writer/creator. Just don't expect real women to like it much. (Unless it's written in such a way that it's empowerment or at least men get the same treatment and there's not sexualisation of it.)

But yeah, the issue here is sex-washing (if we have white-washing, why not gender-washing and, in this case sex-washing?). Just because a character is suddenly turned a woman doesn't mean that the history of the character is now null and void.

Cloud didn't become some weak little girl when he dressed up as a woman. His clothes where pretty conservative when compared to Tifa's even with the best stuff, and when he got picked he was still himself. That didn't change. A female Cloud (do not talk to me of Lightning. She is NOT a GB Cloud. She is Lightning - they both have very different histories, characterisation and personalities) would be no different than normal Cloud - still probably a fan of purple and pants, still sporting the Tee and still doing that ridiculous sword twirl whenever possible.

Established characters suddenly becoming all faint and weak because they're women as opposed to strong and capable when men is just pathetic and should not be tolerated. That is sex-washing.
Puddor
if squallbutts was a misao category i'd win every damn year
5702
I'm only going to post in this thread once.

In regards to general appearance/behaviour:

Squall is reserved and withdrawn. It is out of character for outfit, as a female, to be drawn scantily. The bubbly/don't-give-a-shit character in FF8 was the only one wearing an explicitly short skirt, and that was done solely for male appeal because SELPHIE WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED WEARING PROPER OVERALLS. It was because of the fact they felt obligated to include a girl wearing a skirt, because of video game culture. If that doesn't make you feel a little bit queasy, it should.

Draw your scantily clad genderbends but if you really want to be a part of progressive industry rather than a stagnant, 30-something-stubble guy and exposed tits one, keep it to EITHER realistically dressed characters or EQUALLY SEXUALIZED CHARACTERS.


In regards to the plot:

You do all realize the Final Fantasy VIII focused on having females that, while not in the leading role, held all the power play? Squall was the leader but Rinoa, technically, has more power than he does. He can only keep up because of GFs plot-wise. The game places the emphasis on powerful females. If you made Squall female and Rinoa male, you would have to gender bend the entire cast. Ultimecia, Adel, Edea, every sorceress, OR YOU WOULD HAVE TO MAKE FEM!SQUALL A SORCERESS, WHICH WOULD DEFEAT THE ENTIRE POINT.
WHY? I'll elaborate.
As Nessiah said "Female Squall is basically Ultimecia."

THIS IS A KEY PLOT QUOTE IN REGARDS TO SQUALL: THERE ARE NO 'GOOD' AND 'EVIL' SIDES, JUST DIFFERING VIEWPOINTS.

This is constructed to develop an ironic twist to Ultimecia being the end boss since SQUALL AND ULTIMECIA SHARED THE SAME VIEWPOINT. Squall is afraid of the future and doesn't like something becoming the 'past'. Squall hates the concept of time.

So if Fem!Squall were to become a Sorceress, thus gain the potential to initiate time compression, how do you think that'd go? The fact that time continues to escape him and he loses the people he cares for is such a core part of Squall's character that the outcome I'm presenting here can't be ignored.

Fem!Squall would not work in regards to Final Fantasy VIII's plot, because you are robbing one or more characters of their standing and placing emphasis on a main character who is intended to be a semi-bystander. Yes, they probably would've failed if not for Squall as leader, but Rinoa as a sorceress and the others who are Sorceresses are so key to the storyline that without them none of it would've occurred.

Kyrsty out.




p.s. this thread??? could really benefit from 3-D browsing. just an idea.
Puddor
if squallbutts was a misao category i'd win every damn year
5702
author=SorceressKyrsty
EITHER realistically dressed characters or EQUALLY SEXUALIZED CHARACTERS.

psst: a guy having their shirt off in one piece of promotional art is not equivalent to designing a character's basic outfit in that way (nor do i really care about that aspect anyway)

thank you for posting that though, i love seeing my art spread around the forums in such a way, much appreciated

I actually didn't have a point to make I just wanted to trick you into posting in this thread again with a sexman.

I was told recently that shorts are both comfy and easy to wear. Can anyone confirm or deny this. Perhaps the answer to this question shall shed some light on this subject.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Jericho
I was told recently that shorts are both comfy and easy to wear. Can anyone confirm or deny this. Perhaps the answer to this question shall shed some light on this subject.

Pants are better. *mic drop*
author=Jericho
I actually didn't have a point to make I just wanted to trick you into posting in this thread again with a sexman.

I was told recently that shorts are both comfy and easy to wear. Can anyone confirm or deny this. Perhaps the answer to this question shall shed some light on this subject.


Depends on the person. Personally I prefer pants. Some prefer shorts. Either way, they're legit for movement, but there's more protection afforded by pants and when you're an RPG character I think pants might be best when you don't want to destroy your knees and legs when being sent flying by big ol' monster attacks. ;p

Tau
RMN sex symbol
3293


This thread :D

@Jericho - You.. I like you.
I have a theory that Squall always wanted to wear shorts all along but he was embarrassed by his leg hair. But he knew if he shaves his legs and wore shorts Seifer would just call him gay and dunk him into a toilet over and over again. So the only option was pants. Since It is socially acceptable for only women to have shaved legs in the backwards repressed environment of Balamb Garden, picture 1 might indeed be the most accurate representation of female Squall.
Basically, my opinion:

1. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex, or sexy outfits.
2. There IS something wrong with a character immediately getting a sexy outfit at odds with their normal outfit just because they changed genders.
7. There IS something wrong with the sexiness of outfits in a game being determined by gender.
4. If all the men in your game dress normally or blandly, or in heavy armour, but all the women dress in bikinis, you are doing something wrong.
5. "Wrong" is subjective, "sexiness" even moreso, but to say that just because it's a free world we can do what we like misses the point, and comes under Being a Dick. Don't be a dick.
4. FFVIII wouldn't really have worked if Squall was a girl, because the game was quite specifically (and, yes, sexistly, in a way) setting out to portray men and women in a certain way. Because the game is geared around gender, changing Squall's gender would have changed his role in the game, and it wouldn't really have worked.
9. An FFVIII with every gender role switched could potentially be awesome.
author=Amy
4. FFVIII wouldn't really have worked if Squall was a girl, because the game was quite specifically (and, yes, sexistly, in a way) setting out to portray men and women in a certain way. Because the game is geared around gender, changing Squall's gender would have changed his role in the game, and it wouldn't really have worked.

9. An FFVIII with every gender role switched could potentially be awesome.

It would have been interesting if Squall had been the Sorceress. Imagine playing along and suddenly black screen. When it comes back you're somewhere else and you have to try figure out what happened when you 'blanked'. Retrace your footsteps and join up with your allies again. Find out the atrocities you, as Squall, committed.

She'd start withdrawing into herself even more, even going so far as to out-right spurn the love interest of Rino (or Rinoa, too. That would be cool if it were handled properly and not just for the sake of 'ooooh, sexy lesbians' - like with Fang and Vanille >.<; ) because she's terrified of her friends finding out that there's something wrong with her.

Eventually she finds her courage and seeks out the truth, learns of becoming the Sorceress and decides to find the Esthar, only to be 'kidnapped' by her friends and forced to fight against her inner demons.

Not sure how it would work with the Laguna side story. I guess she could blame those 'fairies' to start with then realise that since the others are seeing them too, it mustn't be what's happening to her.

And the whole Ellone thing would be interesting as well. Nevermind all the war pieces in between. Perhaps there'd be some question as to how she could lead when a woman, which is then shot down by showcasing her abilities in and out of battle (from, say, Seifer or Sniper-dude - although he'd be more likely to flirt).

Hell, they could set up this whole 'romantic' sideline with Seifer - he wants to be the Sorceress' Knight - but when they both realise SHE's the Sorceress it becomes a case of "Ew, NOT you" and Seifer leaves to join Ulty because he's definitely NOT into Squall and wants nothing to do with THAT piece of pie. A fake romance to trick the players. XD

Gotta give credit to 8 - they had women as top-ranking officers in a military-based 'culture'. Could have made for an interesting game.
Holy crap, I leave my own topic for a good while, and I see this lol. I thought this topic was dead.