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CASTLES MASTERPIECE SEQUEL
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Seiromem
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CloseCASTLES MASTERPIECE SET SEQUEL
For those of you who don't know what Castles-Masterpiece Set is
CLICK HERE
anyways, I decided I didn't want to wait for someone else to do something for me so I'm going to do it!
The castle's masterpiece set was an SMBX event where we practiced designing castles that were challenging, which did not exactly mean difficult, basically.
Level Submissions:
Of course, the way the level submissions were handled were with one person giving feedback and suggesting changes if the level wasn't up to par, and even if it was feedback was still given to make the castle even better.
This has the obvious flaw of putting too much work onto one person.
The best way to prevent this: Multiple Judges! I know i am incapable of judging levels and giving suggestions, so I'd rather have at least three other people do that.
THIS TIME though, we should be more strict.
Themes:
There wasn't any themes in the last masterpiece set, so we had a variety of submissions. While this isn't bad at all, it still made for a lack of consistency; there was also a lack of plot.
I have a solution for both these things!
Level Rules:
These read as such:
-We're going for quality over quantity here, so you may submit up to 3 levels total.
-You are not limited to staying within any of the “styles” the castles previous Mario games adhered to. Use them as guidelines, but don't be afraid to innovate. Have fun with it!
-You may use custom graphics and MP3s if you wish.
-The game will only utilize Mario and Luigi as characters, so don't make Peach or Toad levels.
-All water must be swimmable. Waterfalls must not be.
-An average castle should take no longer than 2 to 4 minutes to complete. (And no shorter than 1 minute)
-This will be a strictly one player game. You don't have to design your castle to support co-op.
-No secret stars.
-No dialogue! That means no message blocks, signs, or talking npcs!
-You must have at least one power
up. Remember that the amount of power-ups and how you place them contributes greatly to the difficulty of a level.
-Use invisible blocks wisely. No putting them over pits or other nonsense of that sort.
----------------------------------------
-I feel a different way of handling this is in order.
I think we should instead have a limit of 1 level at a time.
Once that level has gone through the full extent of judging and has been deemed "The best it can be" so to speak, then, and only then, should you start making your second castle.
-I vote keep it
-same with this one
-yup
-agreed
-I think we should "keep in mind" 2-player but not focus on it.
-Definitely!
-I'm going to agree to this and state that I plan to have myself be an exception if you all like my idea (explained below)
-I'd like to change this to at least two: one at the start, one in the middle.
-Agreed.
With all the concepts out of the way, it's time for my idea!
Theme Idea:
I say thatDr Toadly some archeologist toad how boring meets with Mario on his ship, and he tells Mario he'll pay him 1000000 gold coins if he searches the ruins in 4-5 "Areas" (this being where the theme comes in) The ruins in a given area don't have to have similar block structure or graphics style. They just share the "Theme" of that area (Desert, Forest etc.) and nothing more.
However, I might suggest that we have similar enemies for the sake of consistency.
There should be the same amount of ruins in each area, and one "final" ruin that requires stars from each ruin to play.
Ruins being castles, but for the sake of the story, they'd just be called ruins.
Things that need deciding:
-My Rules suggestion and any others
-My Theme idea, and any others
-Agreement on level submission stuff
-If we accept my theme ideas, we'd need to know how many areas and what their themes are.
Something I didn't cover, complaints about me?
I hope you suggest stuff, this is all I could think of that would be relevant!
For those of you who don't know what Castles-Masterpiece Set is
CLICK HERE
anyways, I decided I didn't want to wait for someone else to do something for me so I'm going to do it!
The castle's masterpiece set was an SMBX event where we practiced designing castles that were challenging, which did not exactly mean difficult, basically.
Level Submissions:
Of course, the way the level submissions were handled were with one person giving feedback and suggesting changes if the level wasn't up to par, and even if it was feedback was still given to make the castle even better.
This has the obvious flaw of putting too much work onto one person.
The best way to prevent this: Multiple Judges! I know i am incapable of judging levels and giving suggestions, so I'd rather have at least three other people do that.
THIS TIME though, we should be more strict.
Themes:
There wasn't any themes in the last masterpiece set, so we had a variety of submissions. While this isn't bad at all, it still made for a lack of consistency; there was also a lack of plot.
I have a solution for both these things!
Level Rules:
These read as such:
-We're going for quality over quantity here, so you may submit up to 3 levels total.
-You are not limited to staying within any of the “styles” the castles previous Mario games adhered to. Use them as guidelines, but don't be afraid to innovate. Have fun with it!
-You may use custom graphics and MP3s if you wish.
-The game will only utilize Mario and Luigi as characters, so don't make Peach or Toad levels.
-All water must be swimmable. Waterfalls must not be.
-An average castle should take no longer than 2 to 4 minutes to complete. (And no shorter than 1 minute)
-This will be a strictly one player game. You don't have to design your castle to support co-op.
-No secret stars.
-No dialogue! That means no message blocks, signs, or talking npcs!
-You must have at least one power
up. Remember that the amount of power-ups and how you place them contributes greatly to the difficulty of a level.
-Use invisible blocks wisely. No putting them over pits or other nonsense of that sort.
----------------------------------------
-I feel a different way of handling this is in order.
I think we should instead have a limit of 1 level at a time.
Once that level has gone through the full extent of judging and has been deemed "The best it can be" so to speak, then, and only then, should you start making your second castle.
-I vote keep it
-same with this one
-yup
-agreed
-I think we should "keep in mind" 2-player but not focus on it.
-Definitely!
-I'm going to agree to this and state that I plan to have myself be an exception if you all like my idea (explained below)
-I'd like to change this to at least two: one at the start, one in the middle.
-Agreed.
With all the concepts out of the way, it's time for my idea!
Theme Idea:
I say that
However, I might suggest that we have similar enemies for the sake of consistency.
There should be the same amount of ruins in each area, and one "final" ruin that requires stars from each ruin to play.
Ruins being castles, but for the sake of the story, they'd just be called ruins.
Things that need deciding:
-My Rules suggestion and any others
-My Theme idea, and any others
-Agreement on level submission stuff
-If we accept my theme ideas, we'd need to know how many areas and what their themes are.
Something I didn't cover, complaints about me?
I hope you suggest stuff, this is all I could think of that would be relevant!
One person can judge all the castles just fine. (You just have to remember that you are very good at Mario games and no one else is as good as you)
Also, this is not going to work. This is basically making a contest exactly the way I did it. If you want to make a game that people can play and have fun with, rather than a Tower of Biased contest-results deal. Then you need to make a plan for how that game is structured: You can't expect the participants to actively participate in that process, so you need to get that figured out before anything else.
For instance - Is this going to be a hub world like the last one (yes, that's a good idea so do that)? Then you should figure out what order players should tackle things in. Start at the bottom, work your way up? Have a large hub ruin and the levels make up different sections of the ruins? Are these going to be ruins instead of castles? Because if they are, then you should be consistent with the theming and make the levels ruins.
You'll also need levels that are easy and progressively get harder rather than do what I did and put the least interesting levels first and the more interesting levels later: You'll need levels that are accessible to precede the ones that are more difficult.
Also, will you have secret exits? Will there be unlockable levels?
Also, this is not going to work. This is basically making a contest exactly the way I did it. If you want to make a game that people can play and have fun with, rather than a Tower of Biased contest-results deal. Then you need to make a plan for how that game is structured: You can't expect the participants to actively participate in that process, so you need to get that figured out before anything else.
For instance - Is this going to be a hub world like the last one (yes, that's a good idea so do that)? Then you should figure out what order players should tackle things in. Start at the bottom, work your way up? Have a large hub ruin and the levels make up different sections of the ruins? Are these going to be ruins instead of castles? Because if they are, then you should be consistent with the theming and make the levels ruins.
You'll also need levels that are easy and progressively get harder rather than do what I did and put the least interesting levels first and the more interesting levels later: You'll need levels that are accessible to precede the ones that are more difficult.
Also, will you have secret exits? Will there be unlockable levels?
author=IsrieriI disagree. Even with that mindset, you can never really know how another person will play your level. Having multiple judges ensures that you as a project lead remains in-check. When if there is a game-breaking bug that isn't obvious to the judge as he/she plays it? Unless you get another person to trigger that bug you'd be releasing something that players will still get pissed off with.
One person can judge all the castles just fine. (You just have to remember that you are very good at Mario games and no one else is as good as you)
We don't need as many judges as say, Super RMN World, mind you. Even one or two more people would suffice.
Otherwise, seiromem, Isrieri is right. Also, while you stated plenty of problems with the first event, you didn't really go into how you are going to fix them. You mention that you are going to be more strict with level submissions, in what way, exactly? The original event was relatively stickler with how it didn't get crap past the radar, either, so what are you doing different?
On your rules, you also should place a ban on certain objects. Bowser Statues and npcs that don't fit with the concept we are going for, for instance, should be banned. Before that, however, I'd figure out what your concept is to begin with.
I also don't really care for the "one level at a time" rule. If we are dealing with only three levels per person, then going through them all wouldn't be that tough. One thing you should also consider is that imposing a limit on the amount of submissions saves time on the game's development. Do you really want to go through the pain that Halibabica went through to put 112 levels together in SRB3?
Just to reassure you, I'm down for this event, but it needs more thought right now.
Right then!
So, there'll be a hub world, and it'll be ruins not castles (can't see the difference except for a few graphical things like cracked walls and such)
There'll be the "Ship" as the hub and four routes the boat will take (branches) with area themes (I still want that to be voted upon) The branches would have 10 levels.
Then, once you get all the stars from those branches, you are able to find the hidden treasury or something that contains the "reward" the Mario Bros were seeking.
There will be no secret exits and no unlock-able levels.
So, here are the area themes I had in mind.
Industrial: Basically Metal ruins; Abandoned warehouses/factories, run-down power-plants and such.
Shroomland Forest: A forest with mushroom trees of a variety of colors that's very mountainous.
Grey Ocean Delta: Basically a bunch of lakes and rivers going through solid gray rock.
Desert: It's a desert.
As for the level submissions, how many people do you think would join this event?
my guess is as many as castles, so a level limit of 3 seems to still work.
EDIT: Alright, lemme just sort out my thoughts on the previous events problems and suggest how to fix em, give me a minute or 9000.
So, there'll be a hub world, and it'll be ruins not castles (can't see the difference except for a few graphical things like cracked walls and such)
There'll be the "Ship" as the hub and four routes the boat will take (branches) with area themes (I still want that to be voted upon) The branches would have 10 levels.
Then, once you get all the stars from those branches, you are able to find the hidden treasury or something that contains the "reward" the Mario Bros were seeking.
There will be no secret exits and no unlock-able levels.
So, here are the area themes I had in mind.
Industrial: Basically Metal ruins; Abandoned warehouses/factories, run-down power-plants and such.
Shroomland Forest: A forest with mushroom trees of a variety of colors that's very mountainous.
Grey Ocean Delta: Basically a bunch of lakes and rivers going through solid gray rock.
Desert: It's a desert.
As for the level submissions, how many people do you think would join this event?
my guess is as many as castles, so a level limit of 3 seems to still work.
EDIT: Alright, lemme just sort out my thoughts on the previous events problems and suggest how to fix em, give me a minute or 9000.
author=seiromem
So, there'll be a hub world, and it'll be ruins not castles (can't see the difference except for a few graphical things like cracked walls and such)
Ruins are called such because they are ruined, either by decay or some event that devastated the civilization in question. One thing to note is that they aren't necessarily indoor environments, would kind of conflicts with the general "castle level" theme.
author=seiromem
There'll be the "Ship" as the hub and four routes the boat will take (branches) with area themes (I still want that to be voted upon) The branches would have 10 levels.
Then, once you get all the stars from those branches, you are able to find the hidden treasury or something that contains the "reward" the Mario Bros were seeking.
Looks fine by me, but for the sake of this event, I'd avoid going for a set number for each world, because when if you don't get enough participants, then? What would be your back-up plan?
So, here are the area themes I had in mind.
Industrial: Basically Metal ruins; Abandoned warehouses/factories, run-down power-plants and such.
Shroomland Forest: A forest with mushroom trees of a variety of colors that's very mountainous.
Grey Ocean Delta: Basically a bunch of lakes and rivers going through solid gray rock.
Desert: It's a desert.
This doesn't seem bad to me, either. Just as long as there is some variety.
Something you want to note, though, is that the event was called "Castles Masterpiece Set" because the event centered around castle levels with Mario in particular. In that regard, the levels in that event did have some merit for being challenging.
"More strict"
obviously crap hadn't flown under the radar. However I feel the radar (Isrieri) let the ones that were "Too hard" (based off of the reviews, I'd say the levels were pretty damn hard) go by because he didn't have trouble with them. This supports the multiple judges idea; more than one person means a more varied skill level, which means a more reasonable difficulty.
also, to quote the reviews
THAT, right there, is something we'd need to focus on; Removing the "unfairness"
Three judges should be a good number.
With a more reasonable difficulty we can have good difficulty curves.
I honestly don't know how to respond to this statement.
...do you want me to change the title or something?
uh....... hm....
obviously crap hadn't flown under the radar. However I feel the radar (Isrieri) let the ones that were "Too hard" (based off of the reviews, I'd say the levels were pretty damn hard) go by because he didn't have trouble with them. This supports the multiple judges idea; more than one person means a more varied skill level, which means a more reasonable difficulty.
also, to quote the reviews
author=Corfaisus
I think the problem with this game is that it isn't difficult, it's "bullshit" difficult. I'm all for overcoming a game that pushes back, but when it's designed poorly and no longer seems to flow like your standard Mario level does (I defy anyone to try a legitimate speedrun of this game), that's when it becomes aggravating.
author=Addit
The main issue here is that a lot of these levels feel like they’re a bit unfair to the player overall, even some of the earlier ones pose a lot of problems that you would usually see towards the end levels of the game. There are too many instances with bad enemy placements that seem to get you in the right spots; too many high risk jumps that require absolute - almost perfect - precision jumping on your part;
THAT, right there, is something we'd need to focus on; Removing the "unfairness"
Three judges should be a good number.
With a more reasonable difficulty we can have good difficulty curves.
author=Ratty524
Something you want to note, though, is that the event was called "Castles Masterpiece Set" because the event centered around castle levels with Mario in particular. In that regard, the levels in that event did have some merit for being challenging.
I honestly don't know how to respond to this statement.
...do you want me to change the title or something?
uh....... hm....
author=seiromem
I honestly don't know how to respond to this statement.
...do you want me to change the title or something?
uh....... hm....
Just making sure you understood the point of that event! :P
jackalotrun
3397
This seems interesting, just a one thing, is this going to be an official event or a forum event?
Either way i'm in, judge perhaps?
Either way i'm in, judge perhaps?
author=jackalotrun
This seems interesting, just a one thing, is this going to be an official event or a forum event?
An official event is the dream!
author=jackalotrun
Either way i'm in, judge perhaps?
Maybe, I'd like to get a list of candidate for judges and decide amongst them, so you'll be on that.
As for the levels being "Ruins" not castles, I think I'll revert back to castles. You know, so this can actually be called a sequel =P
Perhaps maybe just ruined castles!
jackalotrun
3397
author=seiromemauthor=jackalotrunAn official event is the dream!
This seems interesting, just a one thing, is this going to be an official event or a forum event?
author=jackalotrun
Either way i'm in, judge perhaps?
Maybe, I'd like to get a list of candidate for judges and decide amongst them, so you'll be on that.
As for the levels being "Ruins" not castles, I think I'll revert back to castles. You know, so this can actually be called a sequel =P
Perhaps maybe just ruined castles!
Duly noted
author=halibabicafrom Isrieriow my ego
rather than do what I did and put the least interesting levels first
Solitayre's level wasn't interesting enough?
By the way, the way to group these levels is worth discussing over, since the way it was done last time didn't properly account for difficulty progression.
If you are going with the "worlds" set up, you could sort the levels from easiest to hardest in each world.
Or, we can go with a more linear progression where the player goes through one world at a time instead of having all of them available. The "Shroomland Forest" area could contain the easiest levels, while the "Industrial" area would contain the hardest.
Jalex
979
I think having levels sorted by difficulty within each world and all worlds available from the start (except for perhaps a "finale" world) makes more sense. If someone were to make a "Forest" level with endgame difficulty and it was placed in the first world based on theme, it would make for a poor difficulty curve.
I doubt I could be a judge (even if I did have any credibility around here), but I'm definitely interested in this.
I doubt I could be a judge (even if I did have any credibility around here), but I'm definitely interested in this.
author=halibabicafrom Isrieriow my ego
rather than do what I did and put the least interesting levels first
Don't forget I also grouped by developer. This game was structured weirdly.
author=Ratty
Solitayre's level wasn't interesting enough?
I put Solitayre first specifically because his level was a fantastic introduction to the difficulty of the game without going overboard. It was also very pretty. Put your best forward foot forth first.
author=Davenport
I'm interested in making this game a better sequel.
Don't make a million castles this time!
I say leading the game off with a mandatory "intro" level that sets the tone/theme/difficulty of the game, is visually and mechanically interesting, and can be beaten even by a novice player is a really good way to start off the game. This is how I started Mario's Mansion II and III for instance.
It's alright to make a game aimed at high end veteran Mario players but it should probably be labeled as such.
It's alright to make a game aimed at high end veteran Mario players but it should probably be labeled as such.
One thing I'd recommend that worked out pretty well in SRW is to have participants submit their level specifically to a given world. Having the devs scale their level difficulty based on where the stage is supposed to end up can help a great deal. If your worlds have themes, then this becomes mandatory anyway.
author=SolitayreAlright then, what should the intro level be?
I say leading the game off with a mandatory "intro" level that sets the tone/theme/difficulty of the game, is visually and mechanically interesting, and can be beaten even by a novice player is a really good way to start off the game.
Perhaps a walk through a jungle towards the hub (archaeologist's house)?
author=HalibabicaI'm pretty sure with the themed areas people will already have to be forced to submit their level to a specific world. Making the devs choose how early/late they want their ruined castles to be and then making their level sounds like a good idea to me.
One thing I'd recommend that worked out pretty well in SRW is to have participants submit their level specifically to a given world. Having the devs scale their level difficulty based on where the stage is supposed to end up can help a great deal.
author=AlexanderXCIII
I'm definitely interested in this.
Good! Hope you'll participate!
author=seiromem
Alright then, what should the intro level be?
Perhaps a walk through a jungle towards the hub (archaeologist's house)?
Well, if it's going to be a game made up of castle levels, it should probably be a castle level.
You could build the game around the context of each level being part of one greater, overarching castle, and enforce this in people's submissions. The Mario's Mansion series did this to varying degrees of success. The original Castles game also had that as the general context, but the game didn't feel like it was all part of one castle.
author=Solitayre
You could build the game around the context of each level being part of one greater, overarching castle, and enforce this in people's submissions. The Mario's Mansion series did this to varying degrees of success. The original Castles game also had that as the general context, but the game didn't feel like it was all part of one castle.
Yeah, this is probably the best way of doing it.
