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HOW IMPORTANT ARE: PLOT TWISTS?
Posts
Jalex
979
Jalex
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Closeauthor=Red_Novaauthor=CashmereCatHaving plot twists just to have plot twists, huh?
The more plot twists, the better. Plot twists, make the story. Without plot twists, your story is a granny story. Sorry, but it's the truth.
... Hideo Kojima, is that you?
My money's on M. Night Shyamalan.
author=masterofmayhem
games like Ocarina of Time and Final Fantasy VI, have little-to-no plot twits and there all coincided to have good stories.
I thought "Sheik is Zelda" and "Kefka destroys the world" were pretty big twists, or do those not count because the spoilers for those games expired years ago?
Housekeeping
3571
Yeah, if you're counting anything that's not entirely expected as a plot twist, then plot twists are fine and completely unavoidable. I guess I just hate plots that hinge solely on subverting audience expectation, and the twist itself is the selling point like the aforementioned M. Night Shyamalan. Whenever I hear "plot twist," this is the kind of thing that I think about.
"Hey, it was just a dream all the time!" is the most lousy and overused plot twist ever.
I e.g. liked the ending of Planet of the Apes (film). The one with the Statue of Liberty.
I e.g. liked the ending of Planet of the Apes (film). The one with the Statue of Liberty.
author=CashmereCatI wish this were Reddit so I could upvote you for being controversial.
The more plot twists, the better. Plot twists, make the story. Without plot twists, your story is a granny story. Sorry, but it's the truth.
Personally, I'm in favour of plot-twists that quite simply turn entire narratives on their heads. For example, one game did something like this (I'm not mentioning what game this was, but I'm hiding the twist in spoiler tags anyway):
going from generic "You are the chosen one" shtick to "we are all in a giant ass computer simulation that Ray Kurzweil would have a field-day with". This type of game-changer was something not commonly carried out in jRPGs up to that point, so it was definitely a welcome change to "he was the baddy all along!" or whatever is the norm.
This is definitely the type of thing I'd like to see more of. Quality over quantity IMO - even if it takes a long time to get to the Game Changer (TM).
nurvuss
958
I know that game! I suppose it's a fairly interesting twist for a standalone story, but I felt that being part of a series made the twist problematic: it effectively negated the events of the several games that preceded it...
OK, fine, if you want to end your series for good with no way of coming back, I have respect for that...but then it was followed up by another game (a timeline prequel, at that) at which point I just said "who cares?"
OK, fine, if you want to end your series for good with no way of coming back, I have respect for that...but then it was followed up by another game (a timeline prequel, at that) at which point I just said "who cares?"
author=nurvussOh dear, that makes sense. I never completed the preceding games so I didn't have the same experience (fortunately).
I know that game! I suppose it's a fairly interesting twist for a standalone story, but I felt that being part of a series made the twist problematic: it effectively negated the events of the several games that preceded it...
amerk
2539
A plot twist for the sake of a plot twist is going to feel awkwardly forced and probably hurt the story more than it would have had it remained linear.
Good writing comes with careful planning and research. Plot twists are nice when the reasons behind them are carefully planned and they make sense in the scope of the story, but they need to feel natural in the writing itself versus slapped in because your player might want one.
To make an example of this. Let's say one of your characters turns out to be a villain near the end of the game. That's a plot twist. However:
Bad Plot Twist:
The character turns out to be a villain, and there was no amount of warning beforehand. In fact, he was very helpful to all the townsfolk the entire time, never so much as swore, and treated everybody with respect. Take the movie Frozen. The betrayal was poorly done and felt like a last moment attempt at creating a twist for the sake of having one.
Good Plot Twist.:
The character turns out to be a villain, and when the player thinks back to some of the scenes there was that occasional moment when the character acted strangely. The character managed to deceive everybody around him, but when you put the pieces together, it makes sense. Movie wise - I'd have to go with Fallen, Secret Garden, 12 Monkeys, and Dark City for some of good examples.
Good writing comes with careful planning and research. Plot twists are nice when the reasons behind them are carefully planned and they make sense in the scope of the story, but they need to feel natural in the writing itself versus slapped in because your player might want one.
To make an example of this. Let's say one of your characters turns out to be a villain near the end of the game. That's a plot twist. However:
Bad Plot Twist:
The character turns out to be a villain, and there was no amount of warning beforehand. In fact, he was very helpful to all the townsfolk the entire time, never so much as swore, and treated everybody with respect. Take the movie Frozen. The
Prince's
Good Plot Twist.:
The character turns out to be a villain, and when the player thinks back to some of the scenes there was that occasional moment when the character acted strangely. The character managed to deceive everybody around him, but when you put the pieces together, it makes sense. Movie wise - I'd have to go with Fallen, Secret Garden, 12 Monkeys, and Dark City for some of good examples.
@amerk I'm going to contest that the plot twist you're talking about in Frozen isn't really all that bad!
Ugu, I'm going to regret this post because I'm no good at debate. Take it with a pinch of salt please!
More on topic though, plot twists aren't necessary I think. I find myself putting them in game on accident though. And some of my favorite stories are loaded with plot twists!
It was foreshadowed enough in my opinion. From Hans and Anna not quite syncing up in their love song to Hans purposely attacking Elsa with a chandelier. It also kind of helps that the entire movie has a theme revolving around people hiding their true selves. Elsa hiding her powers, Hans hiding his evil, the kingdom excluding itself, Kristoff hiding his love etc. And it makes sense that Hans was polite and pleasant the entire time - he wants to be a beloved ruler! Swearing at people, being edgy, and making it clear you're a jerk isn't going to get you on anybody's good side. And it makes sense that he rushed into marriage when he was clearly much more down to Earth than Anna was because he was taking advantage of her.
I-I'm going to stop there I think. I can see how it's considered a bad plot twist, but I found it good. I only write this long windedgeeky response because I personally believe it's good and don;t want others to get locked into thinking it's bad.
I-I'm going to stop there I think. I can see how it's considered a bad plot twist, but I found it good. I only write this long winded
Ugu, I'm going to regret this post because I'm no good at debate. Take it with a pinch of salt please!
More on topic though, plot twists aren't necessary I think. I find myself putting them in game on accident though. And some of my favorite stories are loaded with plot twists!
Sviel
2006
If your story would not have made sense had the plot twist not happened, it's probably not a good twist. In such cases, the twist can be used to explain things or spice things up, but if it was never revealed, the experiences of the characters still would have been believable.
Secondly, the twist should not invalidate the preceding material, only show it in a new light. Nothing is more frustrating than being told that all that stuff you cared about earlier was actually worthless...but being told that perhaps your tears were being jerked by an undeserving fellow, that re-ignites the emotion with a new direction.
I would say they aren't absolutely necessary, though. Just, really easy to do and people don't usually get mad about them since they're so run-off-the-mill. If you're aiming for average, a plot-twist is a great way to get there.
Secondly, the twist should not invalidate the preceding material, only show it in a new light. Nothing is more frustrating than being told that all that stuff you cared about earlier was actually worthless...but being told that perhaps your tears were being jerked by an undeserving fellow, that re-ignites the emotion with a new direction.
I would say they aren't absolutely necessary, though. Just, really easy to do and people don't usually get mad about them since they're so run-off-the-mill. If you're aiming for average, a plot-twist is a great way to get there.
Crystalgate
694
I have seen a lot of good advice about plot twists in this tread. I think that it boils down to plot twists being a good idea in theory, but in practice they are dependent on the author having the skill to pull them off. If you're not a good writer, most likely your plot twist will not be anywhere near awesome and your audience will roll their eyes.
Personally, I think that if you look at your story and start thinking "what if character X betrays the hero, I think that would work out" you are more likely to succeed with your plot twist than if you in advance make a decision like "I want a plot twist where it turns out a party member sympathized with villain all the time."
Personally, I think that if you look at your story and start thinking "what if character X betrays the hero, I think that would work out" you are more likely to succeed with your plot twist than if you in advance make a decision like "I want a plot twist where it turns out a party member sympathized with villain all the time."
Desertopa
775
author=Crystalgate
Personally, I think that if you look at your story and start thinking "what if character X betrays the hero, I think that would work out" you are more likely to succeed with your plot twist than if you in advance make a decision like "I want a plot twist where it turns out a party member sympathized with villain all the time."
I think the former could work out; there are definitely authors out there who're experts of the "write by the seat of your pants" style. But in general, I think that the twist which is planned in advance, where the author has in mind the idea of a character who is the sort of person who would sympathize with the villain, and incorporates that into their characterization from the beginning and works in the appropriate foreshadowing, will tend to work out better than the one which the author doesn't have in mind until shortly before it happens.
author=Housekeeping
Yeah, if you're counting anything that's not entirely expected as a plot twist, then plot twists are fine and completely unavoidable. I guess I just hate plots that hinge solely on subverting audience expectation, and the twist itself is the selling point like the aforementioned M. Night Shyamalan. Whenever I hear "plot twist," this is the kind of thing that I think about.
The Prestige
Prisoners
Fight Club
The Sixth Sense
A Beautiful Mind
Shutter Island
Donnie Darko
They're all overrated because people love plot twists at the end that change everything but make them completely unwatchable the second time. I was kidding by the way, plot twists are cold porridge. Boo to plot twists! They never, ever, ever work.
Jalex
979
author=CashmereCat
I was kidding by the way, plot twists are cold porridge. Boo to plot twists! They never, ever, ever work.
That's just about as BS as your first post on the subject. Obviously plot twists can and do work, otherwise writers wouldn't still be using them.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
yes thank you captain obvious
(though assuming something works just because people keep using it isn't particularly smart)
(though assuming something works just because people keep using it isn't particularly smart)
author=AlexanderXCIIIauthor=CashmereCatThat's just about as BS as your first post on the subject. Obviously plot twists can and do work, otherwise writers wouldn't still be using them.
I was kidding by the way, plot twists are cold porridge. Boo to plot twists! They never, ever, ever work.
You're absolutely wrong.
Jalex
979
author=CashmereCat
You're absolutely wrong.
Prove it, then. Convince me that you are objectively correct despite three pages of discussion implying that it isn't as black & white as you suggest, not to mention countless works with "plot twists" that most people agree aren't ruined forever.
author=AlexanderXCIIIauthor=CashmereCatProve it, then. Convince me that you are objectively correct despite three pages of discussion implying that it isn't as black & white as you suggest, not to mention countless works with "plot twists" that most people agree aren't ruined forever.
You're absolutely wrong.
Actually, you've convinced me. Plot twists are unreservedly mandatory. I apologize for my earlier indiscretion.
But in all seriousness, I will actually talk about my opinion of plot twists now.
Plot twists are different from twist endings. Plot twists are those sudden, unexpected changes in characters, setting or plot, that usually happen either around the mid-mark or the end-mark (those are twist endings). Twist endings are a sub trope of plot twists (they're plot twists at the end). I think plot twists are mandatory for a story, even if it's just "oh my goodness, that character did that!" because that counts as a plot twist, and conflict is good in a story. But, if it's a twist ending that relies on hiding the truth from the viewer (like Housekeeping said) to make it more "shocking", then it's a gimmick, basically. I like rewatchable movies, and if it has a twist ending, that makes it less rewatchable for me for some reason. It's because most of the time they're holding out the entire story on you, letting you know only a little bit piece by piece, foreshadowing ever so lightly, but too lightly so that you can't guess the ending.
Psycho does the plot twist well, and it twists hard, right at the end and right in the middle, which is fantastic. People copied Hitchcock, though, until Twist Endings evolved and repeated themselves into overused cliche territory and then into M Night Shyamalan "please-stop" area 51.
Anyway, I'm terrible at this kind of thing so I'll just stop trolling you, AlexanderXCIII. I neither love nor hate plot twists as much as you think I do. Thanks for being cool though and feeding my trolliness. I'm not even that good a troll. But at least you made me non-troll at the end. Bleh, I think I'm going to go have a coffee.
RyaReisender
200
Those movies aren't overrated. They are good because they have good plot twists. It's basically an indication on how important they are.
Housekeeping
3571
Well, I haven't seen Prisoners, but as for the others, I'd argue that they're good in spite of the plot twists rather than because of them in a lot of cases. Most of those films have really strong character development, dialogue, acting, and cinematography. Some of them--like A Beautiful Mind or the Prestige--have plot twists that are necessary results of character development and are expected since the films are about a man with schizophrenia and misdirection/what it takes to be a magician, respectively.
The problem comes when you're making a game about, I don't know, battling your inner demons, and then your best friend who's made a name for himself by jumping very high decides to betray you (!), but then it turns out that he's just being mind-controlled (!!), and then you join back with him to defeat the bad guy only to find out that he's your father (!!!), but that's okay because he's just being mind-controlled by a moon man (!!!!), but you can stop him because you're actually a moon man too (!!!!!).
The problem comes when you're making a game about, I don't know, battling your inner demons, and then your best friend who's made a name for himself by jumping very high decides to betray you (!), but then it turns out that he's just being mind-controlled (!!), and then you join back with him to defeat the bad guy only to find out that he's your father (!!!), but that's okay because he's just being mind-controlled by a moon man (!!!!), but you can stop him because you're actually a moon man too (!!!!!).
