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HOW IMPORTANT ARE: PLOT TWISTS?
Posts
Crystalgate
694
Crystalgate
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Closeauthor=Desertopa
I think the former could work out; there are definitely authors out there who're experts of the "write by the seat of your pants" style. But in general, I think that the twist which is planned in advance, where the author has in mind the idea of a character who is the sort of person who would sympathize with the villain, and incorporates that into their characterization from the beginning and works in the appropriate foreshadowing, will tend to work out better than the one which the author doesn't have in mind until shortly before it happens.
If you sketch out your storyline and at some point goes "hey, it would be cool if plot twist X happens" then you can go back to earlier parts of the storyline and make the appropriate foreshadowing. Also, if twist X requires a character to have a certain personality, chance is that character already have that personality. Typically, you would not look at a character you've made up and think "hey, what if that character betrayed the party?" unless there's already something about the character that makes the betrayal makes sense. If you get such an idea, your head has already figured out a way it fits.
I think I give you an example. One character I thought off is a girl who on the surface acts pretty much how strict religious people want girls to act, but in reality she's in no way that proper and for example gets drunk not very rarely. Once I had that concept down, I got the idea for a plot twist where a villain accidentally reveals himself due to her putting out a false exterior. Without going too much into detail, the villain basically claimed a supernatural mean of sensing pure hearted people and when he then "sensed" her, it was a dead giveaway. This twist was not an idea I had in the beginning, it wasn't until I looked closer at how to make her concept more interesting that I got the idea. There also already happened to be a good reason as to why the villain want to gather people that are seen as pure hearted, so the twist fits. If that hadn't been the case, then I wouldn't have thought the twist was a good idea.
Anyway, going back to the betrayal twist, imagine deciding that a character is going to betray the party before you've gotten the inspiration for a character for whom that kind of plot twist fits. Now you need to write one. Unless you're rather skilled, there's a high chance that the characterization ends up coming of as stiff. Further, it's likely the player will notice that the character is written for exactly that purpose.
author=Housekeeping
Well, I haven't seen Prisoners, but as for the others, I'd argue that they're good in spite of the plot twists rather than because of them in a lot of cases. Most of those films have really strong character development, dialogue, acting, and cinematography. Some of them--like A Beautiful Mind or the Prestige--have plot twists that are necessary results of character development and are expected since the films are about a man with schizophrenia and misdirection/what it takes to be a magician, respectively.
Yeah but I still think they're overrated. That's just me personally. I mean I like them, but people say they're the best movie ever made, and to that I say no.
Housekeeping
3571
Yeah, I'd agree that there are better films for sure. There Will Be Blood is probably my favorite film, and it doesn't have any significant plot twists. I think from the list, The Prestige and A Beautiful Mind weren't overrated at all. Fight Club, Shutter Island, Donnie Darko, and The Sixth Sense I can understand, but I'd still say they're better than the majority of films that come out.
Well, all Nolan films are overrated (lol). I mean, they're not terrible, but The Prestige had a "reveal" that wasn't really a reveal at all. It was pretty ironic too, because the prestige in the film was not really a prestige at all. It's presented like, "wow this is a twist it's so edgy!" when it wasn't really a twist and it wasn't that revelatory in the end. It's like the movie presents a mystery when there is none. The rivalry between the two magicians was probably a way better focus of a film rather than "did Hugh Jackman actually disappear or not?" a question that's probably best not answered because no answer will be satisfactory.
That said, I don't mind watching these films, but I can't help but think that the twists try to give them more credit than they're due.
That said, I don't mind watching these films, but I can't help but think that the twists try to give them more credit than they're due.
RyaReisender
200
I see it kind of different. Especially The Prestige, which would be my favorite movie of all times if Scott Pilgrim didn't exist, is simply a genius masterpiece because the plot-twist at the end was so super epic and dramatic that I couldn't even sleep for weeks. Without the plot-twist I wouldn't really have liked the movie all that much. The twist at the end is needed to make it an amazing movie. The same goes for Shutter Island. Without the twist at the end (the unexpected one), the movie would have been really boring, but that last sentence in that movie makes it amazing. As Housekeeping already said earlier "That twist almost redeemed the movie for me".
In those movies, the twists are the most important part. The whole movie centers around them. It's not just "random plot-twists added to a story because they are cool", but rather movies made just for those plot-twist.
Of course it's possible to make good movies without plot-twists, but it's harder because you need to keep the audience excited throughout the movie rather than just giving them lots of "indications" they can't really fit together and then let the ending make everything become clear.
It's two completely different types of movies.
The only thing that shouldn't be done is adding plot-twists that you didn't really plan for later on. Because then all the indications that actually make the plot-twists amazing will be missing (this is especially true for series because you can't undo what already happened in previous episodes).
Lost for example suffered strongly from that. Originally the authors said that it will all make sense at the end and there will be scientific explanations for everything, but then they suddenly (I assume it was because the internet already had the planned ending figured out) they decided to go a completely different way and put lots of plot-twists in that lead the series into a different direction. Those plot-twists really feel "artificial".
In games I guess you COULD go back to earlier parts of the game and add those indications later on, but I assume it will still feel more artificial than if you had planned the story from the start.
In those movies, the twists are the most important part. The whole movie centers around them. It's not just "random plot-twists added to a story because they are cool", but rather movies made just for those plot-twist.
Of course it's possible to make good movies without plot-twists, but it's harder because you need to keep the audience excited throughout the movie rather than just giving them lots of "indications" they can't really fit together and then let the ending make everything become clear.
It's two completely different types of movies.
The only thing that shouldn't be done is adding plot-twists that you didn't really plan for later on. Because then all the indications that actually make the plot-twists amazing will be missing (this is especially true for series because you can't undo what already happened in previous episodes).
Lost for example suffered strongly from that. Originally the authors said that it will all make sense at the end and there will be scientific explanations for everything, but then they suddenly (I assume it was because the internet already had the planned ending figured out) they decided to go a completely different way and put lots of plot-twists in that lead the series into a different direction. Those plot-twists really feel "artificial".
In games I guess you COULD go back to earlier parts of the game and add those indications later on, but I assume it will still feel more artificial than if you had planned the story from the start.
Desertopa
775
author=Crystalgateauthor=DesertopaIf you sketch out your storyline and at some point goes "hey, it would be cool if plot twist X happens" then you can go back to earlier parts of the storyline and make the appropriate foreshadowing. Also, if twist X requires a character to have a certain personality, chance is that character already have that personality. Typically, you would not look at a character you've made up and think "hey, what if that character betrayed the party?" unless there's already something about the character that makes the betrayal makes sense. If you get such an idea, your head has already figured out a way it fits.
I think the former could work out; there are definitely authors out there who're experts of the "write by the seat of your pants" style. But in general, I think that the twist which is planned in advance, where the author has in mind the idea of a character who is the sort of person who would sympathize with the villain, and incorporates that into their characterization from the beginning and works in the appropriate foreshadowing, will tend to work out better than the one which the author doesn't have in mind until shortly before it happens.
I think I give you an example. One character I thought off is a girl who on the surface acts pretty much how strict religious people want girls to act, but in reality she's in no way that proper and for example gets drunk not very rarely. Once I had that concept down, I got the idea for a plot twist where a villain accidentally reveals himself due to her putting out a false exterior. Without going too much into detail, the villain basically claimed a supernatural mean of sensing pure hearted people and when he then "sensed" her, it was a dead giveaway. This twist was not an idea I had in the beginning, it wasn't until I looked closer at how to make her concept more interesting that I got the idea. There also already happened to be a good reason as to why the villain want to gather people that are seen as pure hearted, so the twist fits. If that hadn't been the case, then I wouldn't have thought the twist was a good idea.
I'm not sure I'd really regard that as a twist. If the villain has been around for a while and the audience has been led to believe that his power is genuine, then yeah. But if the audience hasn't already accepted the legitimacy of his power as a premise of the story, then I wouldn't call it one. It might be an interesting event, maybe even a surprising one, but to be a twist I think that an event should change how you view the events leading up to it.
Anyway, going back to the betrayal twist, imagine deciding that a character is going to betray the party before you've gotten the inspiration for a character for whom that kind of plot twist fits. Now you need to write one. Unless you're rather skilled, there's a high chance that the characterization ends up coming of as stiff. Further, it's likely the player will notice that the character is written for exactly that purpose.
I think that if you can't create a character with some intended outcome in mind without their characterization coming off as stiff, and the outcome seeming obvious, then those are important skills to acquire, not so much in order to start doing outcome-first writing as because those issues don't really go away when you're not doing outcome-first writing. Foreshadowing events from the beginning of a story, rather than going back and doing it retrospectively, helps you practice natural dialogue and engaging your characters with your setting, by encouraging you to come closer to the patterns of real conversations, where there are always a thousand subtle things going on at once. Similarly, writing characters where you know more in advance about what they're supposed to be like gives you a narrower target to aim for, so if you end up off the intended mark it gives you a sense of what to correct.
Eh. I think I'm just really bored of twists. They're always the same. The Prestige didn't amaze me and Shutter Island definitely didn't amaze me. With The Prestige, the ending was something I was always thinking of throughout the movie and then I tried to think, "Well was that it?" and then investigated the ending more.
It's like people saying about Inception: "Ooooh, it's such a confusing movie, all those levels!" but I understood everything as they were introduced (all Nolan films feed it to you) because it was introduced simply and effectively. I kind of liked Inception, even the ending. Even so, it's still an overrated film, because everyone likes Nolan apparently. But it's way better than average.
Anyway, perhaps what I should say is that not all people are looking for an amazing twist, like myself. Twists are nice, but also I just want to care about a good story without either a twist pulling the rug of everything I know on me and leaving everything meaningless, or leaving me thinking, "Now was that really necessary?" Perhaps I'm just a minimalist and don't like these kinds of things clogging up a good story because they're what most people think will make something better when it won't. Then again, that's called me having a superiority complex.
It's like people saying about Inception: "Ooooh, it's such a confusing movie, all those levels!" but I understood everything as they were introduced (all Nolan films feed it to you) because it was introduced simply and effectively. I kind of liked Inception, even the ending. Even so, it's still an overrated film, because everyone likes Nolan apparently. But it's way better than average.
Anyway, perhaps what I should say is that not all people are looking for an amazing twist, like myself. Twists are nice, but also I just want to care about a good story without either a twist pulling the rug of everything I know on me and leaving everything meaningless, or leaving me thinking, "Now was that really necessary?" Perhaps I'm just a minimalist and don't like these kinds of things clogging up a good story because they're what most people think will make something better when it won't. Then again, that's called me having a superiority complex.
