QUESTOIN ON CLASSES AND BOSSES
Posts
Yo, just want to say that i love perusing this forum... a lot of insightful ideas from a lot of people... Now as for why I'm here...
I've been debating a class system in my head... In it there are 15 classes and each person has access to three different classes... ex, my holy character can be a paladin, healer, or crusader, (a holy mage)... Each class has 7-9 skills they spend JP to unlock, and that only that class can use. Would it make more sense for me to keep three classes to a person, or more fun for the player if I unlock all 15 for them to use?
Also, in regards to boss battles, what do you think about debuffs and statuses on them. Have like one or two work on each boss, pertaining to the gimmick, or have them have a lower chance to work on the boss? Obviously it would be anticlimatic to freeze a boss continually while you wail on him, but maybe having freeze work 15 % of the time? How have you guys approached this?
I'll probably never finish my game as i keep restarting it after so many hours, but it is fun trying! Thanks for your input!
I've been debating a class system in my head... In it there are 15 classes and each person has access to three different classes... ex, my holy character can be a paladin, healer, or crusader, (a holy mage)... Each class has 7-9 skills they spend JP to unlock, and that only that class can use. Would it make more sense for me to keep three classes to a person, or more fun for the player if I unlock all 15 for them to use?
Also, in regards to boss battles, what do you think about debuffs and statuses on them. Have like one or two work on each boss, pertaining to the gimmick, or have them have a lower chance to work on the boss? Obviously it would be anticlimatic to freeze a boss continually while you wail on him, but maybe having freeze work 15 % of the time? How have you guys approached this?
I'll probably never finish my game as i keep restarting it after so many hours, but it is fun trying! Thanks for your input!
Hi Billiumw!
1) Feel the same here. This is the best forum ever.
2) Classes: I think unique classes build up who the character is. I like it better that way. FF IV (I think) had a class system using crystals. Anybody could be anything, nice! But Seiken Densetsu 3, each character had unique classes, some of them could be related to their choices in life or suggest their personality: AWESOME!
It may also depend on the setting you have for your game: If they are partners in the same army or so, then it may be reasonable to have all the options for all of them. If they are single adventurers from different backgrounds or so, then unique classes may be a better choice.
3) Bosses: How climatic you think it is your character to be frozen continously until death? Maybe the issue is to balance the status. I agree with you: bosses vulnerable to anything being killed by poison or paralysis can be boring. Bosses (like in BoF IV) that can (and will) uncast just every buff, are just hack-n-slash-survive-enough-to-kill-me... But think about Pokemon: it's statuses are so balanced that even in Elite4 you wont feel bad if you burn/freeze somebody, because it's strategy.
Don't know if I could explain myself here but I hope you may find my opinion useful to build up your own.
1) Feel the same here. This is the best forum ever.
2) Classes: I think unique classes build up who the character is. I like it better that way. FF IV (I think) had a class system using crystals. Anybody could be anything, nice! But Seiken Densetsu 3, each character had unique classes, some of them could be related to their choices in life or suggest their personality: AWESOME!
It may also depend on the setting you have for your game: If they are partners in the same army or so, then it may be reasonable to have all the options for all of them. If they are single adventurers from different backgrounds or so, then unique classes may be a better choice.
3) Bosses: How climatic you think it is your character to be frozen continously until death? Maybe the issue is to balance the status. I agree with you: bosses vulnerable to anything being killed by poison or paralysis can be boring. Bosses (like in BoF IV) that can (and will) uncast just every buff, are just hack-n-slash-survive-enough-to-kill-me... But think about Pokemon: it's statuses are so balanced that even in Elite4 you wont feel bad if you burn/freeze somebody, because it's strategy.
Don't know if I could explain myself here but I hope you may find my opinion useful to build up your own.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm definitely not a fan of making statuses randomly work on some enemies but not others, especially with no way to tell without wasting turns. The way I'm handling this in my current project is to make all status durations very short so that you can't just lock enemies down, bosses or otherwise. And then I also gave them cooldowns instead of failure chances. Mostt statuses shouldn't just result in you winning if they hit, that's boring and anticlimactic as you said. And if your normal battles are short enough that the player doesn't need to use ailments in them anyway, you should be designing all your ailements primarily for use on bosses.
Another method I like, in games where ailments work more like FF (powerful and long but can fail), is to give minions to almost every boss, or sometimes body parts. Then you can make sure the main target is immune but some of the targets can be hit by every ailment.
Another method I like, in games where ailments work more like FF (powerful and long but can fail), is to give minions to almost every boss, or sometimes body parts. Then you can make sure the main target is immune but some of the targets can be hit by every ailment.
Thanks for the feedback! And I think I will shorten the duration of my status effects, or the ones hat lock down enemies at least... I like the body parts idea... Grandia did that alot too...
I agree that using status in random battles seems a waste sometimes, I kinda try to get around that by having the various attacks also do damage in addition to status effects.
As for the classes, I don't think it makes sense in my story have anyone be anything. I'll keep them with their individual classes i think...
I agree that using status in random battles seems a waste sometimes, I kinda try to get around that by having the various attacks also do damage in addition to status effects.
As for the classes, I don't think it makes sense in my story have anyone be anything. I'll keep them with their individual classes i think...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, I'm not sure it'd add anything to let everyone be the same. The player would experience fewer options, not more, since once they found something that worked they could do it with everyone, probably. (Depends on the player, but it's a real possibility.)
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, I'm not sure it'd add anything to let everyone be the same. The player would experience fewer options, not more, since once they found something that worked they could do it with everyone, probably. (Depends on the player, but it's a real possibility.)
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, I'm not sure it'd add anything to let everyone be the same. The player would experience fewer options, not more, since once they found something that worked they could do it with everyone, probably. (Depends on the player, but it's a real possibility.)
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, I'm not sure it'd add anything to let everyone be the same. The player would experience fewer options, not more, since once they found something that worked they could do it with everyone, probably. (Depends on the player, but it's a real possibility.)
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
Making almost all your ailment skills deal damage is a good start. That means your ailments are more useful in normal battles, so you need to be sure not to mess that up too bad when finding ways to make them not OP against bosses. Making enemies or bosses immune to random ailments is bad communication though. Shorter will probably work fine, as would some other options. Low hitrate is usually hard to balance well...
That's a pretty good Gourd impression, LockeZ, but I don't think we can fit all that in your user title.
EDIT: Okay, actually looking at the topic... I'll agree with what Treason and Locke said. Randomized all-or-nothing status conditions can be extremely frustrating if your really need that incapacitation to survive (maybe you're under-leveled or the boss is designed to be unbeatable without immobilizing it), which basically means that whether you live or die is up to chance.
I definitely prefer characters to not be able to be built identically to each other, as I feel it kinda defeats the purpose of having different characters.
EDIT: Okay, actually looking at the topic... I'll agree with what Treason and Locke said. Randomized all-or-nothing status conditions can be extremely frustrating if your really need that incapacitation to survive (maybe you're under-leveled or the boss is designed to be unbeatable without immobilizing it), which basically means that whether you live or die is up to chance.
I definitely prefer characters to not be able to be built identically to each other, as I feel it kinda defeats the purpose of having different characters.
I'd have to agree with you all on that... nothing was more infuriating in FF that another useless status spell. Bosses make them devistating but you cannot get them to land at all.
As for the character class thing, I have decided that each of the three classes a character possess can use any of the skills they have from their move pool for their three classes...
For example, one character can be a cleric or a paladin, but the paladin can use the clerics healing spells if they want. To balance this out, each class will have distinct core mechanics. The paladin can use the healing spells, but not as frequently as the cleric, as she will have less mana regen as a paladin, to make up for extra HP and defense. Alternatively the Cleric can use paladin skills, but they will not be as effective for the cleric as she can only wear cloth armor.
Each class will have a signature skill that is only usable in that class, though. The clerics signature skill is a passive that doubles mana regeneration, making them able to use more powerful spells more often. It will be trickier to balance, but I believe more fun in the end if i can pull it off.
As for the character class thing, I have decided that each of the three classes a character possess can use any of the skills they have from their move pool for their three classes...
For example, one character can be a cleric or a paladin, but the paladin can use the clerics healing spells if they want. To balance this out, each class will have distinct core mechanics. The paladin can use the healing spells, but not as frequently as the cleric, as she will have less mana regen as a paladin, to make up for extra HP and defense. Alternatively the Cleric can use paladin skills, but they will not be as effective for the cleric as she can only wear cloth armor.
Each class will have a signature skill that is only usable in that class, though. The clerics signature skill is a passive that doubles mana regeneration, making them able to use more powerful spells more often. It will be trickier to balance, but I believe more fun in the end if i can pull it off.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Man. I don't even know how I did a quadruple post. I'm not even mad, that's just impressive.
Remember that the statuses used by the player and the ones used by enemies don't have to all be the same.
Sleep status, which paralyzes a character but breaks if they're attacked, is really tactically interesting if used on enemies - it gives you some crowd control but in a way that limits your strategies. But when used against the player, it's just a paralyze spell that can randomly be way shorter or way longer duration than normal.
Your way of handling the classes sounds fine. It makes the choice more of a specialization than a totally different setup, so the player can switch to specializing in whichever spells they are primarily needing/using/enjoying.
A status that triples all MP costs is the other way around. When used against the player, it significantly changes how you play without actually locking you down. When used against an enemy, it has no effect, except perhaps making it harder to design enemy AI.
Remember that the statuses used by the player and the ones used by enemies don't have to all be the same.
Sleep status, which paralyzes a character but breaks if they're attacked, is really tactically interesting if used on enemies - it gives you some crowd control but in a way that limits your strategies. But when used against the player, it's just a paralyze spell that can randomly be way shorter or way longer duration than normal.
Your way of handling the classes sounds fine. It makes the choice more of a specialization than a totally different setup, so the player can switch to specializing in whichever spells they are primarily needing/using/enjoying.
A status that triples all MP costs is the other way around. When used against the player, it significantly changes how you play without actually locking you down. When used against an enemy, it has no effect, except perhaps making it harder to design enemy AI.
A status that increases mp cost... sounds like an awesome boss battle trick to me!
And yeah, I have poison for the enemy which does more hp degeneration that the poison status for the player, to make it tactically more interesting... and i should probably do something like that... frozen could be a short duration status, 2 turns, but sleep a little longer and can be broken!
And yeah, I have poison for the enemy which does more hp degeneration that the poison status for the player, to make it tactically more interesting... and i should probably do something like that... frozen could be a short duration status, 2 turns, but sleep a little longer and can be broken!
I want to add your are pretty good at thinking this stuff up too. I loved reading your boss battle threads... Coding would be over my head on that stuff but they are very interesting indeed.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Heh, the LockeZ Designs A Boss For You thread is permanently open, and if you don't have good coding skills, just say so and I can try to design one that can easily be done with only basic skills and simple battle events, or explain how to do the more complex stuff.
Well if i ever get far enough in my game to need more than an introductory boss battle, you might see me post there!
One idea I've had is for status attacks to deliver a certain amount of charges of their respective status. Each entity has a certain amount of resistance to each status effect. You get inflicted by a status effect if the number of charges exceed or equal to your resistance and each turn you're inflicted by the status effect, you remove a number of charges equal to your resistance.
Say you have a paralysis spell that inflicts three charges of paralyze. An enemy with just one resistance will suffer for three turns. An enemy with two in resistance will just suffer for one turn, but if you cast the paralyze spell again, it will suffer for two turns since after recovering from the first paralysis, there was one charge left. Let's then say there's a boss with ten in resistance, you need four castings to inflict paralyze for even one turn.
It's not very appealing to cast paralyze three times for no effect, so this system would need a way for the player to build up charges while damaging an enemy. If that's the case though, it would allow for the player to only occasionally lock down bosses without making it random and also let the player affect the frequency a bit.
Say you have a paralysis spell that inflicts three charges of paralyze. An enemy with just one resistance will suffer for three turns. An enemy with two in resistance will just suffer for one turn, but if you cast the paralyze spell again, it will suffer for two turns since after recovering from the first paralysis, there was one charge left. Let's then say there's a boss with ten in resistance, you need four castings to inflict paralyze for even one turn.
It's not very appealing to cast paralyze three times for no effect, so this system would need a way for the player to build up charges while damaging an enemy. If that's the case though, it would allow for the player to only occasionally lock down bosses without making it random and also let the player affect the frequency a bit.
author=BilliumwKeep the 3 classes to a person. That makes the character more individual. Much better than "Everyone can learn everything". And too much choice is actually a bad thing for quite some players (hard to decide, requires guides to optimize, etc.).
Yo, just want to say that i love perusing this forum... a lot of insightful ideas from a lot of people... Now as for why I'm here...
I've been debating a class system in my head... In it there are 15 classes and each person has access to three different classes... ex, my holy character can be a paladin, healer, or crusader, (a holy mage)... Each class has 7-9 skills they spend JP to unlock, and that only that class can use. Would it make more sense for me to keep three classes to a person, or more fun for the player if I unlock all 15 for them to use?
Also, in regards to boss battles, what do you think about debuffs and statuses on them. Have like one or two work on each boss, pertaining to the gimmick, or have them have a lower chance to work on the boss? Obviously it would be anticlimatic to freeze a boss continually while you wail on him, but maybe having freeze work 15 % of the time? How have you guys approached this?I'm not really a big fan of status spell with low success chance. Success chance should always be at least 80% or else it feels like a waste. Better make it 100%. Bosses do NOT need to be immune to status changes, it depends on how well you design the boss and the spells. For example I could make an instant death spell that always works but give it the requirement "Target needs to have less than 50% HP left". I could make it work on a boss and just give the boss a bit more HP. Then it's just a valid tactic to get him down to 49% and then finish him off with the spell.
Also take a 100% success sleep spell. You don't have to counter this with resistances, but for example also could do it so that the boss spawns minions when it can't act.
Generally, you can also reduce the duration greatly, rather than the success chance. For example all status changes have 100% success on both normal monsters and bosses but their effect is 30 seconds on normal monsters but only 6 seconds on bosses.
What is the best balance depends on each boss individually.
Yeah,getting the spells to work on bosses without overdoing it will be tricky to balance. I think I do have some random chance on a few of my low end status effects (at least 50 percent.) but they are low cost (like a side effect of a regular attack for certain classes) or hit all enemies aka random battle fodder. The higher cost ones you have to build up for are a hundred percent. This is all good info!
It bears mentioning that another way to balance out lower status success rates is by giving multiple party members access to those status problems. If a Sleep status only has a 50% chance of success, but two party members have skills that inflict it, their chances of putting the enemy to Sleep are greatly increased if they both use it. Likewise, if a status skill hits an entire group of enemies, you can get away with decreased rates since some will get inflicted while others won't. You should weigh the effects of the status problems carefully and decide the rate based on that.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=RyaReisender
For example I could make an instant death spell that always works but give it the requirement "Target needs to have less than 50% HP left". I could make it work on a boss and just give the boss a bit more HP. Then it's just a valid tactic to get him down to 49% and then finish him off with the spell.
Better yet, if enemies have visible health bars, you can give a boss five health bars stacked one above the other. An "instant death" spell can then require that the current health bar be less than 50%, and wipe out the remainder of that health bar, but the boss will still have four more. Longer boss fights can have more health bars.
This simple change in how you present the information on screen will make it seem, to the player, like the spell makes perfect sense. It will feel extremely consistent, and feel like it works the same on bosses as on normal enemies, even though in fact you're actually making the spell 1/5 as effective against bosses.
You can handle gravity attacks the same way; have them deal a percentage of the enemy's health bar.
Haven't figured out a clever trick for paralyze skills yet. I always just make sure the cooldown is longer than the duration, or that they wear off when the target is struck.














