MAKING THE PLAYER CARE, NOT JUST THE CHARACTER
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Since watching Egoraptor's sequelitis video about Ocarina of time, this is something I've been paying a little more attention to. The player should care about what they're doing in a game.
I don't mean care about the plot. That's obviously good too. But I'm talking about player motivations that would still exist without any cut scenes. Or, in some cases, a cut scene might be used to motivate the player instead of the character.
An example of the first one might be an important looking locked door. The player will want to open it, because that's human nature. You can make them want to open it more by establishing a pattern: every locked door with a dragon etched into it has a miniboss and a treasure behind it. But how does the player know how to open it? If they're motivated to open the door but have no way to find the key except "explore everywhere", you've motivated them to explore everywhere (which is good!) but not to do anything specific. Assassin's Creed IV has a lock that needs five keys, which you get at the end of five sidequests that are each labeled on your map, so you are motivated to do the next one, but this kind of grandiose sequence doesn't work so well for smaller things.
I find the second type easier - use cut scenes to explain or hint what you'll get if you do things. I feel like this isn't as good of design though, and anyway it's not always possible without doing incredibly weird things in cut scenes in the middle of dungeons. This often feels very... forced. Like the heroes stopping mid dungeon to tell me that "Look, that monster's blood can be used to make healing elixirs! Be sure to scoop it up in a jar, and leave the monster alive if you want to be able to come back and do this again later." Man. If what you want me to do is that far away from what I would naturally do, maybe you should train me over the course of the game... or just not make me do that and reward me for doing what I want since this is supposed to be fun for me.
I'm not actually good at doing this. At all. I'm trying to add more player motivation to my games but in some cases I'm barely even sure what would motivate the player to do the next part of the game. More power always works, but isn't always easy to communicate.
I don't mean care about the plot. That's obviously good too. But I'm talking about player motivations that would still exist without any cut scenes. Or, in some cases, a cut scene might be used to motivate the player instead of the character.
An example of the first one might be an important looking locked door. The player will want to open it, because that's human nature. You can make them want to open it more by establishing a pattern: every locked door with a dragon etched into it has a miniboss and a treasure behind it. But how does the player know how to open it? If they're motivated to open the door but have no way to find the key except "explore everywhere", you've motivated them to explore everywhere (which is good!) but not to do anything specific. Assassin's Creed IV has a lock that needs five keys, which you get at the end of five sidequests that are each labeled on your map, so you are motivated to do the next one, but this kind of grandiose sequence doesn't work so well for smaller things.
I find the second type easier - use cut scenes to explain or hint what you'll get if you do things. I feel like this isn't as good of design though, and anyway it's not always possible without doing incredibly weird things in cut scenes in the middle of dungeons. This often feels very... forced. Like the heroes stopping mid dungeon to tell me that "Look, that monster's blood can be used to make healing elixirs! Be sure to scoop it up in a jar, and leave the monster alive if you want to be able to come back and do this again later." Man. If what you want me to do is that far away from what I would naturally do, maybe you should train me over the course of the game... or just not make me do that and reward me for doing what I want since this is supposed to be fun for me.
I'm not actually good at doing this. At all. I'm trying to add more player motivation to my games but in some cases I'm barely even sure what would motivate the player to do the next part of the game. More power always works, but isn't always easy to communicate.
Oh, that's a big topic, especially difficult to pull off without cut-scenes for RPG maker games. I'm not a developer as you very well know, but I dig theories so I'll try to add my few cents.
First of all, narratively, we all know the "show, don't tell" formula. If you need to tell the player he should care about something, you're sure to be doing it wrong. You need to subtly convey these feelings and motivate the player on his own to go to the same direction. Or build on natural curiosity and assumptions of the player (like locked doors or treasure chests. You know there gotta be something there)
The easiest way to make the player care is to involve something he knows, he's touched and seen before. Something he's worked on. If you lose something you worked on or need to re-do something .. it's awful. But this very effect can be applied positively.
If your sister is ill and you need to travel the world (let's completely disregard the trope), it doesn't involve you unless you had contact with said sister before something happened.
Make her lively and likeable, then watch her grow weak, feeble and ill (while still preserving her likeable redeeming features) until you (the character) finally decides to do something about it.
If we break this down, it's easy to make cut-scenes out of it - but can we weave this into the gaming world?
A slight alteration would also be to have some semi-triggered cutscenes. Not by walking into a room, but by interacting with something. Your monster-elixir for example. If you just automatically gain the ability to use monster blood, then it seems out of place - if you searched the corpse and then get something out of it, it's quite different.
Your approach made this reaction possible and your decision to check it helped you. You made it possible. That's what we like.
Of course, this means that you can miss things. So if you implement vital features like this, there need to be alternative ways of learning it (in town, in sort some of school, by skillbooks or at later corpses)
Any additional information, and especially skills gained by these minor actions make you hungry for more. It tells you there is merit in exploration. And that makes you motivated to search more. Reward the player for following your views and ideas as the creator.
Have some logic in the game. That makes it easier to go to later parts - if the previous actions result to what you're now facing, you won't even need to explain anything. You needn't see it coming perfectly clear, but if hints make sense in restrospect, then that's awesome (improves replay-value as well). There are many different ways to procceed, of course, but you can limit those by your party restrictions. Having too little time, too few allies, the need to act alone and use the surprise - whatever.
Howver, the environments and worlds themselves have great narrative potential. I realize this is particularily difficult for RPG maker games, as you have tile restrictions among other things (you could make some doors stand out more than others by adding some carvings or gold ornaments elsewhere, for example). Having hints in the environment also means that you can miss those - so you either have a chain of similiar hints (getting bigger and stronger) or take the risk.
We often deal with enchanted forests, for example. But instead of saying "the witch has cursed it! Look!", you should instead discover that it has been cursed. You might just have a job there without any spefic information, but once you wander into the forest you notice slight annomalies.
It's the usual forest when you enter, once you walk furhter in you'll notice trees growing strange ways, animals becoming more aggressive and mutating a little bit. Perhaps new plants or just plants that usually wouldn't be growing in the forest. This and a changing color theme will make you curious to what happened here and already think of possible reasons - like a watch cursing it. So your job must be to kill her, or stop this curse.
That's an obvious one, of course, but it can work similar for different scenarios and does wonders.
When a war is raging on, the areas near towns and battle fields will have wood chopped, animals scared and acting strange (bullet shots/loud noises alone are a huge problem), some old campfires, resting places and perhaps devastated lands.
During dialogue, the silent protagonist (or just any form of silence inbetween) does wonders. The biggest problem is that while the character already has a fully developed motive, objective and personality - the player is only about to discover what that is, and what is going on. If you have some more specific responses later on, when you already agree with the character, then that comes much more natural.
So, if you want to motivate the player to hate a certain person, you must not have your character get angry at the person. That would break the immersion and any tension you have. You already screamed at him, right?
Instead, let your character not react at all. Perhaps a neutral response or question by some team member (it's always great to include not only the protagonist into NPC or any kind of banter).
Instead, show all the atrocities this person commits, his twisted views and his effect on people (not too much in your face throwing, of course) and then let your character react to it.
That's all that came to mind on the spot, but it's definitely worth some further thought.
First of all, narratively, we all know the "show, don't tell" formula. If you need to tell the player he should care about something, you're sure to be doing it wrong. You need to subtly convey these feelings and motivate the player on his own to go to the same direction. Or build on natural curiosity and assumptions of the player (like locked doors or treasure chests. You know there gotta be something there)
The easiest way to make the player care is to involve something he knows, he's touched and seen before. Something he's worked on. If you lose something you worked on or need to re-do something .. it's awful. But this very effect can be applied positively.
If your sister is ill and you need to travel the world (let's completely disregard the trope), it doesn't involve you unless you had contact with said sister before something happened.
Make her lively and likeable, then watch her grow weak, feeble and ill (while still preserving her likeable redeeming features) until you (the character) finally decides to do something about it.
If we break this down, it's easy to make cut-scenes out of it - but can we weave this into the gaming world?
A slight alteration would also be to have some semi-triggered cutscenes. Not by walking into a room, but by interacting with something. Your monster-elixir for example. If you just automatically gain the ability to use monster blood, then it seems out of place - if you searched the corpse and then get something out of it, it's quite different.
Your approach made this reaction possible and your decision to check it helped you. You made it possible. That's what we like.
Of course, this means that you can miss things. So if you implement vital features like this, there need to be alternative ways of learning it (in town, in sort some of school, by skillbooks or at later corpses)
Any additional information, and especially skills gained by these minor actions make you hungry for more. It tells you there is merit in exploration. And that makes you motivated to search more. Reward the player for following your views and ideas as the creator.
Have some logic in the game. That makes it easier to go to later parts - if the previous actions result to what you're now facing, you won't even need to explain anything. You needn't see it coming perfectly clear, but if hints make sense in restrospect, then that's awesome (improves replay-value as well). There are many different ways to procceed, of course, but you can limit those by your party restrictions. Having too little time, too few allies, the need to act alone and use the surprise - whatever.
Howver, the environments and worlds themselves have great narrative potential. I realize this is particularily difficult for RPG maker games, as you have tile restrictions among other things (you could make some doors stand out more than others by adding some carvings or gold ornaments elsewhere, for example). Having hints in the environment also means that you can miss those - so you either have a chain of similiar hints (getting bigger and stronger) or take the risk.
We often deal with enchanted forests, for example. But instead of saying "the witch has cursed it! Look!", you should instead discover that it has been cursed. You might just have a job there without any spefic information, but once you wander into the forest you notice slight annomalies.
It's the usual forest when you enter, once you walk furhter in you'll notice trees growing strange ways, animals becoming more aggressive and mutating a little bit. Perhaps new plants or just plants that usually wouldn't be growing in the forest. This and a changing color theme will make you curious to what happened here and already think of possible reasons - like a watch cursing it. So your job must be to kill her, or stop this curse.
That's an obvious one, of course, but it can work similar for different scenarios and does wonders.
When a war is raging on, the areas near towns and battle fields will have wood chopped, animals scared and acting strange (bullet shots/loud noises alone are a huge problem), some old campfires, resting places and perhaps devastated lands.
During dialogue, the silent protagonist (or just any form of silence inbetween) does wonders. The biggest problem is that while the character already has a fully developed motive, objective and personality - the player is only about to discover what that is, and what is going on. If you have some more specific responses later on, when you already agree with the character, then that comes much more natural.
So, if you want to motivate the player to hate a certain person, you must not have your character get angry at the person. That would break the immersion and any tension you have. You already screamed at him, right?
Instead, let your character not react at all. Perhaps a neutral response or question by some team member (it's always great to include not only the protagonist into NPC or any kind of banter).
Instead, show all the atrocities this person commits, his twisted views and his effect on people (not too much in your face throwing, of course) and then let your character react to it.
That's all that came to mind on the spot, but it's definitely worth some further thought.
I'd say a lot of getting a character to care about what comes next is based upon building a relationship with the character, even in gems not focused on narrative. Making the player understand and agree with decisions the character makes. When watching a playthrough of Claire (too cheap to buy it), I noticed that the seemingly arbitrary sanity meter actually mirrored the player's reaction fairly well. When entering a room with a patient hooke up to some gross combination of living fles (Still can't describe it ), the room goes cold and sanity drops to horrified, just as there are monsters prowling in the hallway, but crucially it only drops this far a few times, when you actually feel unnerved.
It does this again when standing outside her mothers room, who may be dead or some horrific mutant... thing. More broadly, you have to get the player to actually want to save the kingdom to progress- have them talk to cool locals first, affiliate themselves with a town, etc. If a side quest is to save an npc, make sure the player would choose that if they wee the character.
Specifically for dungeons, player must first want the new equipment (unique design, abilities, etc.), and for doors you could try text hints (under the tree), or some other clue to the location of a key (picture shows man eating plant, defeat it and get key; door is red, corresponds to key in red dungeon; let player find lots of doors and then the kys, later goes back to find door)
If nothing else, make sure the character isn't blindly wandering down a hallway when they find a key, give them some sort of warning and make them go out of their way to get it. I'd need more specific scenarios for specific solutions, but there are a lot of resources out there for player character attunement.
It does this again when standing outside her mothers room, who may be dead or some horrific mutant... thing. More broadly, you have to get the player to actually want to save the kingdom to progress- have them talk to cool locals first, affiliate themselves with a town, etc. If a side quest is to save an npc, make sure the player would choose that if they wee the character.
Specifically for dungeons, player must first want the new equipment (unique design, abilities, etc.), and for doors you could try text hints (under the tree), or some other clue to the location of a key (picture shows man eating plant, defeat it and get key; door is red, corresponds to key in red dungeon; let player find lots of doors and then the kys, later goes back to find door)
If nothing else, make sure the character isn't blindly wandering down a hallway when they find a key, give them some sort of warning and make them go out of their way to get it. I'd need more specific scenarios for specific solutions, but there are a lot of resources out there for player character attunement.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Kylaila
Have some logic in the game. That makes it easier to go to later parts - if the previous actions result to what you're now facing, you won't even need to explain anything.
I think this is actually really important. The best incentives in the world do nothing to motivate the player if you don't communicate them. The easiest way to do that repeatedly through the game is to create rules the player can learn - perform X action, get a reward.
It can get really samey if you overdo it though. In Wild ARMS 3 there are 40 identical hidden temples with a 3D colored block puzzle in each one, and you get a chest for solving it. It succeeded in making me want to solve the puzzles but I actually started dreading the temples because they were progressively more complex. Compare to bombable walls in most Zelda games - they successfully train you to look for them, the player becomes motivated to search, but they might have a secret shortcut or a whole underground complex or just a chest with rupees.
I assume we are talking about optional things here, side-quests and secret bosses and the like. I also read your post more as asking about communicating that these things exist to the player than motivating them to do it.
My first advice: Don't underestimate the player. If there is a challenging monster there, most players will at least try to kill it, even if it is the first time they encounter a monster like that. Once they beat it, they see that it gave them a reward. If you want this to become a pattern, you can use simple graphical or audio cues. Minibosses in the Diablo series always had some kind of glowy aura or other graphical representation, in Zelda you always hear a little jingle in a room with some kind of puzzle or secret.
Then, not all players need or want to see and do everything. I know as a designer you want the player to get the best experience possible, but not everyone has the same needs in a game. Some people like to explore the world more then following a linear story, some care more about narrative over mechanics, some enjoy trying to "break" a game by finding glitches and exploits.
Recognizing which kinds of players your game is for can be very helpful.
Related to that: A design is perfect not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to cut away. (Sadly forgot who said that)
It can be painful, but especially when you're on a small scale like most people here, it's usually better to concentrate on what's important for the game and cut out unneeded features or elements.
A game that's all about the narrative rarely benefits from hour-long dungeon crawls.
Finally, and that one is a personal pet-peeve of mine, rewards have to be worth it. I really dislike meaningless small stat upgrades in games, or new abilities that are just another slightly bigger fireball. That's at least partially personal preference, but I'd suggest using fewer, but more impactful and interesting rewards that open up new gameplay possibilities.
Game balance also plays into this quite heavily. If you can unlock 100 different skills, but you'll really ever need 5 of them to beat everything in the game, you might as well not have them in the game at all.
My first advice: Don't underestimate the player. If there is a challenging monster there, most players will at least try to kill it, even if it is the first time they encounter a monster like that. Once they beat it, they see that it gave them a reward. If you want this to become a pattern, you can use simple graphical or audio cues. Minibosses in the Diablo series always had some kind of glowy aura or other graphical representation, in Zelda you always hear a little jingle in a room with some kind of puzzle or secret.
Then, not all players need or want to see and do everything. I know as a designer you want the player to get the best experience possible, but not everyone has the same needs in a game. Some people like to explore the world more then following a linear story, some care more about narrative over mechanics, some enjoy trying to "break" a game by finding glitches and exploits.
Recognizing which kinds of players your game is for can be very helpful.
Related to that: A design is perfect not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to cut away. (Sadly forgot who said that)
It can be painful, but especially when you're on a small scale like most people here, it's usually better to concentrate on what's important for the game and cut out unneeded features or elements.
A game that's all about the narrative rarely benefits from hour-long dungeon crawls.
Finally, and that one is a personal pet-peeve of mine, rewards have to be worth it. I really dislike meaningless small stat upgrades in games, or new abilities that are just another slightly bigger fireball. That's at least partially personal preference, but I'd suggest using fewer, but more impactful and interesting rewards that open up new gameplay possibilities.
Game balance also plays into this quite heavily. If you can unlock 100 different skills, but you'll really ever need 5 of them to beat everything in the game, you might as well not have them in the game at all.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I was actually talking about every single action the player takes in the game, not just side-quests. The player should always want to do the next thing, it should never just be something that only the characters want to do. I want to give the player an internal drive to continue.
A lot of what you said is still true though. You talked about the player's needs in the game and this is really at the heart of what I'm talking about. Being able to predict those needs, and to manipulate them, and to create gameplay that corresponds to them.
A lot of what you said is still true though. You talked about the player's needs in the game and this is really at the heart of what I'm talking about. Being able to predict those needs, and to manipulate them, and to create gameplay that corresponds to them.
Make what the player does matter. Frankly, if they interact and it doesn't change anything, why should they bother interacting?
I've learned a lot from doing this round of judging about how to make players not care about games. There have been a lot where I should have cared but didn't because of various reasons. One major reason is that I've been told that I should care about a character but not given a reason to.
There have been some games that did this right, though - they made the characters enjoyable, engaging, interesting. They interacted with their environment, making them feel real. Being told vs being shown makes a huge difference in a game - otherwise it may as well just be a book. So many games tell what the characters do instead of showing and it just doesn't work. Show the characters being upset with their dialogue, the way they move, their poses. Show that shit because just telling me isn't doing the job.
Make the player care about the characters by allowing them to know them, make them care about the world by allowing your choices to matter (or seem to ;p ). Show the character how their choices (even if they are linear) changed the world for the better (or worse). If you draw the player in they will care and if they care they will feel as though they need to stay on.
I've learned a lot from doing this round of judging about how to make players not care about games. There have been a lot where I should have cared but didn't because of various reasons. One major reason is that I've been told that I should care about a character but not given a reason to.
There have been some games that did this right, though - they made the characters enjoyable, engaging, interesting. They interacted with their environment, making them feel real. Being told vs being shown makes a huge difference in a game - otherwise it may as well just be a book. So many games tell what the characters do instead of showing and it just doesn't work. Show the characters being upset with their dialogue, the way they move, their poses. Show that shit because just telling me isn't doing the job.
Make the player care about the characters by allowing them to know them, make them care about the world by allowing your choices to matter (or seem to ;p ). Show the character how their choices (even if they are linear) changed the world for the better (or worse). If you draw the player in they will care and if they care they will feel as though they need to stay on.
I think you are talking about something completely different in this thread than what I'm thinking off, but isn't the essence of getting the player care immersion?
There are plenty of things you can do for that:
1. Let the main character NOT talk at all, but not because he is mute, let the player think he actually talks as the main character, let other character react as if the main character actually said something but let them be vague, so it's up to the player's imagination what he said.
2. Make characters, even NPCs, as lovable as possible. The more the player likes them, the more he cares when something happens to them. The you can achieve this for example by letting them tell "slice of life" stories with which the players hopefully can connect to. Having a very little amount of characters and NPCs in the world game of course helps doing this a lot better / easier.
3. Referring to the example above, if you really want the player be interested in opening a door, why not just leave some sort of clue close to it? You might find a piece of paper with a riddle or some cryptic message painted on the walls.
4. Make the player feel important by emphasizing how important his actions are e.g. "only you can save the world now". Or "there is a girl behind the door and the room is air tight, she won't have much time left, you need to hurry and find a way to open the door" and then let a timer start running.
5. As an alternative, you can also do an approach where it's completely up to the player what he wants to do. He can destroy or save the world, whatever he wants. The player will feel more involved because he will feels how strong of an impact his decisions have.
There are plenty of things you can do for that:
1. Let the main character NOT talk at all, but not because he is mute, let the player think he actually talks as the main character, let other character react as if the main character actually said something but let them be vague, so it's up to the player's imagination what he said.
2. Make characters, even NPCs, as lovable as possible. The more the player likes them, the more he cares when something happens to them. The you can achieve this for example by letting them tell "slice of life" stories with which the players hopefully can connect to. Having a very little amount of characters and NPCs in the world game of course helps doing this a lot better / easier.
3. Referring to the example above, if you really want the player be interested in opening a door, why not just leave some sort of clue close to it? You might find a piece of paper with a riddle or some cryptic message painted on the walls.
4. Make the player feel important by emphasizing how important his actions are e.g. "only you can save the world now". Or "there is a girl behind the door and the room is air tight, she won't have much time left, you need to hurry and find a way to open the door" and then let a timer start running.
5. As an alternative, you can also do an approach where it's completely up to the player what he wants to do. He can destroy or save the world, whatever he wants. The player will feel more involved because he will feels how strong of an impact his decisions have.
author=LockeZ
I was actually talking about every single action the player takes in the game, not just side-quests. The player should always want to do the next thing, it should never just be something that only the characters want to do. I want to give the player an internal drive to continue.
A lot of what you said is still true though. You talked about the player's needs in the game and this is really at the heart of what I'm talking about. Being able to predict those needs, and to manipulate them, and to create gameplay that corresponds to them.
Yes, there are many ways to do this.
Most games try this through the narrative, this can either be achieved through some mystery you want to know about or making characters the player cares about. The most important thing about the latter is time. Give characters some room to breath, don't try to rush through the introductions or dump context-less backstory on them, just let them interact with each other.
RPG-Maker specific, there isn't that much room for subtlety in a maker-game. Someone on a german RPG-Maker board said it pretty well, it's more like the actors on a stage. They have to overact a bit to get their characters across, similarly in a game like that, most characters are better off being being introduced in a simple and memorable manner, even if they end up being kind of cartoony and over-the-top. Give them something unique, some quirk, a strange way to dress, some catchphrase... it can be very hard to get the right balance there, since stuff like that can easily get annoying as well. Playtesting is always very important.
Another very important point: The characters actually do need to have a strong want that spurs them into action. What is so important to the hero that he'd risk his life attaining it? What could drive the sorceress to discard her own humanity for power? Just were did the old war between Orcs and Elves start?
If your characters have motivations that the player can emphasize with, they will naturally care about that character achieving their goal.
Quite often you see characters just stumble into the adventure, or they're the chosen one or whatever. They don't have a real motivation other than doing the right thing, without ever really defining their morality or doing anything interesting with the concept. They're purely reactive and as such pretty boring.
Give the protagonist a real stake in the happenings of the story, make it personal.
In terms of map design, it's not that hard to guide the player through your maps. Just a path or some light sources to mark the right way forward is usually enough for the player to know where the story continues and what is an optional side area.
It's also a very good idea to intertwine story and gameplay and having the right amount of both. In a very story heavy game you might not even want to have token-gameplay, but use it as another medium of expression, to get a certain feeling across. (The Walking Dead games from Telltale do this for example)
Important parts of the story or setting should have an impact on the gameplay as well. I'm currently playing Baldur's Gate and there the Iron Shortage the beginning of the game revolves around has a small but noticeable impact on the gameplay: non-magical metal weapons break after some time. Morality system, although I'm not a big fan of those, are also a good example of parts of the story influencing the gameplay. The Light/Dark side thing in most Star Wars games for instance.
If you have to get the four magical gems during your story, let the player actually use them. Maybe they teach new skills or cool exploration abilities. This also creates a pattern the player naturally wants to complete. The human brain is a sucker for patterns.
It's still just the tip of the iceberg, everything plays into it, really. Graphics, sound, UI design, narrative, pacing, gameplay, controls...
Figuring out which games really motivated you personally and which games failed to do so is also a pretty good idea I think.
There are a lot of tricks you can employ and you can make some guidelines. However, I think that there's one skill that will be crucial; keeping track of what the player knows. You place something you think is exciting behind a locked door, but what does the player know? Does the player have any reason to think it's something exciting and not just something that eventually has to be done? If you don't tell the player what's behind the door, there are other ways to give the player the idea that it's something worth the effort. If you do, you may still need to use those other indicators. For example, letting the player know that the legendary sword of big bad evil slayer is behind the door does not necessarily mean there's something great behind the door. Often legendary swords are only slightly stronger than the best store-bought one.
You can't keep a perfect record of what the player does. However, if you create that locked door, put the legendary sword behind it and ask yourself "does my game have a track record of making plot magic items cooler than store-bought ones?" you should be able to look back on your game and answer it.
You can't keep a perfect record of what the player does. However, if you create that locked door, put the legendary sword behind it and ask yourself "does my game have a track record of making plot magic items cooler than store-bought ones?" you should be able to look back on your game and answer it.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, do not narrate when an actual scene and dialogue will do. If you want people to give half a fuck about the character and their story, let them get to know the character and their story.
Narration has become an epidemic and it is BORING AS ALL FUCK. Please, please stop doing this. ;.;
(And don't get me started on stuff like:
"But didn't you want to come with me?"
*She looks down nervously, scuffing her toes on the ground.*
Make a sprite edit - it really isn't that fucking hard to do and it works 10000000000 times better than just telling the player. Fuck. Never tell the player when you can show them - you're making a game not writing a fucking book! Visuals =/> dialogue > narration)
Narration has become an epidemic and it is BORING AS ALL FUCK. Please, please stop doing this. ;.;
(And don't get me started on stuff like:
"But didn't you want to come with me?"
*She looks down nervously, scuffing her toes on the ground.*
Make a sprite edit - it really isn't that fucking hard to do and it works 10000000000 times better than just telling the player. Fuck. Never tell the player when you can show them - you're making a game not writing a fucking book! Visuals =/> dialogue > narration)
I don't think narration has too much to do with immersion. There are games with narration where I still felt heavily immersed in the world like for example Dungeons & Dragons Online.
Yeah, I think you can do narration right. I haven't played DnD Online, but I assume it's there to evoke a Dungeon Master. Bastion is also an example where it worked quite well. The text-only variant you see quite often in Tabletop RPG based games like Baldur's Gate or the newer Shadowrun Returns. It does help a lot when the writing is good, of course.
It's like with everything, if there is a reason for it to be there, Narration can work in a game. It's just that "because I'm lazy" isn't a valid reason.
Also the common misconception that good writing is so much easier than making pixel edits.
It's like with everything, if there is a reason for it to be there, Narration can work in a game. It's just that "because I'm lazy" isn't a valid reason.
Also the common misconception that good writing is so much easier than making pixel edits.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I was really trying to start a discussion about the ways of motivating the player outside of the plot.
For example, here's something that creates long-term motivation in Ocarina of Time.

All those empty slots don't mean much at the very beginning of the game, but once you start to fill some of them in, you want to complete the menu screen. And the game helps you to recognize the patterns of how you're getting them, which drives you forward in the game to complete those tasks.
Another good example from Zelda games, on a much smaller scale, would be the keys in each dungeon. Simply by getting a key, the player wants to find a place to use it. This causes them to want to continue exploring the next room of the dungeon. And if they find the door first, then of course they want to find a way to open it. The boss door and the big chest are locked with a giant ornate lock requiring a special key, which intrigues the player and makes them realize that those things are more valuable than the other locks - as a result, the player wants it even more.
This is more of the kind of thing I was talking about. Gameplay tricks to make the player desire to complete the task at hand.
For example, here's something that creates long-term motivation in Ocarina of Time.

All those empty slots don't mean much at the very beginning of the game, but once you start to fill some of them in, you want to complete the menu screen. And the game helps you to recognize the patterns of how you're getting them, which drives you forward in the game to complete those tasks.
Another good example from Zelda games, on a much smaller scale, would be the keys in each dungeon. Simply by getting a key, the player wants to find a place to use it. This causes them to want to continue exploring the next room of the dungeon. And if they find the door first, then of course they want to find a way to open it. The boss door and the big chest are locked with a giant ornate lock requiring a special key, which intrigues the player and makes them realize that those things are more valuable than the other locks - as a result, the player wants it even more.
This is more of the kind of thing I was talking about. Gameplay tricks to make the player desire to complete the task at hand.
I see what you mean but then my reply would be: Don't do it.
Imo, it's better to motivate players via the plot and the plot alone, because that's the most immersive motivation.
Screens like in Ocarina of Time are pretty much just sort of "Achievement screens". Sure any kind of achievements whether subtle like that or very obvious, like Steam/modern consoles do it, increase motivation strongly, however, they also kill immersion (especially when they pop up mid-game, so I guess subtle ones are still better).
Also, I always found this "Find key but don't know where to use it" stuff incredibly annoying, because it forces you to backtrack so much just looking for "where the hell did I see the blue door again?".
That already ruined many games for me.
Imo, it's better to motivate players via the plot and the plot alone, because that's the most immersive motivation.
Screens like in Ocarina of Time are pretty much just sort of "Achievement screens". Sure any kind of achievements whether subtle like that or very obvious, like Steam/modern consoles do it, increase motivation strongly, however, they also kill immersion (especially when they pop up mid-game, so I guess subtle ones are still better).
Also, I always found this "Find key but don't know where to use it" stuff incredibly annoying, because it forces you to backtrack so much just looking for "where the hell did I see the blue door again?".
That already ruined many games for me.
Well, it certainly shouldn't substitute plot, however, immersion on different layers is a great thing!
This screen really shows that and how you are progressing. In a much more elegant way than showing percentages.
Shadow of the Colossus wouldn't have been a great story if you just got the plotlines. The neutralness of the colossi, their genuine struggle, their impact on the earth surrounding them (becoming visible after they perished ..) - the changes on the character and the general scenery all showed what kind of price may have to be paid. And really questioned your motivations - while at the same time really spurring you on to finish it, for all this would come to naught otherwise.
Implementing environmental and menu changes are nice details, if nothing else. But they can be more and are always appreciated.
This screen really shows that and how you are progressing. In a much more elegant way than showing percentages.
Shadow of the Colossus wouldn't have been a great story if you just got the plotlines. The neutralness of the colossi, their genuine struggle, their impact on the earth surrounding them (becoming visible after they perished ..) - the changes on the character and the general scenery all showed what kind of price may have to be paid. And really questioned your motivations - while at the same time really spurring you on to finish it, for all this would come to naught otherwise.
Implementing environmental and menu changes are nice details, if nothing else. But they can be more and are always appreciated.
Um, I'd consider all what you said about SotC as plot-related motivation. Though it's kind of an interesting case as the game actually tries to get you demotivated to continue playing.
The trick in Zelda OoT doesn't work very well on me. As soon as I get crappy collectibles, I stop getting exited for more of them. Most songs are just there for a select few puzzles and a lot of items are as well. "Congratulations, you found boots that are necessary for certain puzzles, but are otherwise a pain to use!"
How exited I am about an ornate chest depends on how good the game is at putting good stuff in them. At the beginning I will assume they are going to contain something good, but I stop that assumption if the game disappoints. If you want to motivate me, put good things in them.
While we each are a bit different in what motivates us, positive reinforcement is pretty universal.
How exited I am about an ornate chest depends on how good the game is at putting good stuff in them. At the beginning I will assume they are going to contain something good, but I stop that assumption if the game disappoints. If you want to motivate me, put good things in them.
While we each are a bit different in what motivates us, positive reinforcement is pretty universal.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
What does work on you, Crystalgate?
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Crystalgate
The trick in Zelda OoT doesn't work very well on me. As soon as I get crappy collectibles, I stop getting exited for more of them. Most songs are just there for a select few puzzles and a lot of items are as well. "Congratulations, you found boots that are necessary for certain puzzles, but are otherwise a pain to use!"
How exited I am about an ornate chest depends on how good the game is at putting good stuff in them. At the beginning I will assume they are going to contain something good, but I stop that assumption if the game disappoints. If you want to motivate me, put good things in them.
While we each are a bit different in what motivates us, positive reinforcement is pretty universal.
But the Golden Skulltulas, man! Being rewarded for going out of your way to explore the world, and even during the beginning finding a few on your way or hearing some behind a bombable wall; it really helps establish a wonder for exploration. Even if the skulltulas individually mean jack diddly shit, once you come across the skulltula house in Kakariko Village and realize that you'll be rewarded for collecting X amount of tokens, it gives you an incentive to look over every square inch of the world. And the rewards you get never make you any stronger, so its not like you have any reason to collect these tokens outside of just because you felt like it.
Sure, there's always going to be the tried and true routine of chests containing: map, compass, rupees, nuts, rupees, bombs, dungeon item, rupees, big key; but what else would you expect in a game that isn't built around the same things RPGs are? You don't craft in OoT, so you aren't going to be concerned with picking up materials. Potions/fairies wouldn't make good chest loot as you'd have to find them complete with a bottle which would destroy that awesome feeling you get from obtaining one of the only four glass containers in the entire world. Sometimes, old, dusty, suspiciously-untouched RPG chests containing weapons/armor/gold much too large to fit inside aren't all that great. *click, ker-thunk!* Claymore!
And what about earning the pieces of heart to extend your life meter? Still not mandatory if you've got enough skill (gaming that takes skill? *mind blown*) but allow you, in some small way, to become "stronger" in the way that is typical of most of gaming's greatest rewards for success.
















