Full Games List
Featured Games
New Games
Reviews
Media
Images
Blogs
Game Updates
Images Feedback Summary
Game Design Highlights
Tutorials
Articles
Scripts
Utilities / Plugins
Resources
Engines
Engine Bulletins
What is Makerscore?
Past Events
Achievements
Misaos
Forums
Post History
Chat
New to RMN?
Full Store List
RMN Music Pack (free)
MAKING THE PLAYER CARE, NOT JUST THE CHARACTER
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
View playlists
Closeauthor=RyaReisender
I see what you mean but then my reply would be: Don't do it.
Imo, it's better to motivate players via the plot and the plot alone, because that's the most immersive motivation.
ITT: Rya thinks all the exploration in Super Metroid should be removed and replaced with cut scenes
In RPGs one of the most important and genre-pervading game elements is the ability for your characters to get stronger. While a game like Kirby's Super Star or Halo uses other methods to motivate the player, getting stronger is obviously a huge motivation for RPG players - that's part of why they enjoy the genre.
I've been trying to capitalize on this when designing the last couple dungeons in my game by making it so you're not just trying to get through an area or find a macguffin, you're actually trying to get stronger. Specifically, I picked a method of getting stronger that appeals to both gameplay-centric and story-centric players - getting a new party member. By introducing a new party member briefly and then taking them away, or by introducing a character and making it obvious that they're probably going to be joining your party later, and then putting the player in a dungeon to try to find that party member, I can give the player an extremely powerful motivation to beat that dungeon regardless of what type of player they are. Bonus points if you're actually tracking the character and they appear repeatedly throughout the dungeon - being motivated to complete the dungeon is good, but being motivated to open the door in front of you is also something I care about.
Obviously this isn't a sustainable model. Can't have a new party member in every dungeon. I can put other sources of power in the game as objectives, like weapons or abilities, but there's almost nothing that a player cares about more than getting a new party member. So I think I am going to try to do a "get the party member dungeon" for almost every party member in this game. Seems like a waste of a party member not to do so. It's not like that has to be the only point of the dungeon - it's much more likely to be going on in the background alongside fifty other things. But it will be something I attempt to do each time, because it's usually as simple as adding foreshadowing that the character will join you.
author=LockeZ
Obviously this isn't a sustainable model. Can't have a new party member in every dungeon.
(I originally meant to pick on you for your strong strawman of RyaReisender but this was much too ripe.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I mean, I could, but people would care a lot less about the party members, and it wouldn't be worth the damage it would cause to the plot and pacing.
I can't in this game, anyway.
Also, reductio ad absurdum isn't the same thing as a strawman.
I can't in this game, anyway.
Also, reductio ad absurdum isn't the same thing as a strawman.
Crystalgate
694
author=LockeZ
What does work on you, Crystalgate?
I already mentioned positive reinforcement. If all or at least most of the collectibles are awesome, I'll be more interested in getting the rest of them.
There are other methods that work on me though. For example, if the environment is good enough so that merely being in it feels nice, then I'm far more willing to explore it. Looking at the Zelda games, I found myself exploring the towns in Majora's Mask and Minish Cap far more throughout than any other area. The towns were simple the most interesting areas. I tend to be the least willing to explore dungeons in Zelda games, once I'm done with them I'm out. I explore the over world more than the dungeons. This is probably because the over world is less focused on being a stage and more on looking like places.
I also enjoyed exploring in Kingdom Hearts. Partially for the already mentioned reason, but also because I accomplished multiple tasks while exploring. Once you beat Hollow Bastion once, the worlds have their enemy rooster updated. While picking up all the stuff I missed or couldn't get previously, I'm also getting exp and synthesis materials which will help me at upcoming optional bosses. Note that this only works because there actually are optional bosses who warrants the additional exp and synth materials. I'm less interested in Zelda hearth containers because the ones I find with only light exploration is more than enough for the game.
In general, it's the exploration itself that's very important for me. If places feel boring, I'm not motivated to explore them even if there's supposedly treasure.
I don't think how I personally feel about things is really important for the discussion, but I think it's interesting to see too what extent players are wired differently.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
For me, I think a great motivation is more story. Not so much in terms of cutscenes, but getting things like clues, or extra info about backstory or worldbuilding. Things that help fill in the world or cast things in a new and neat light.
One thing that I think helps motivate a player in any game is to sort of trick them into thinking they're figuring things out. Rather than laying it all out in front of the player with exposition (whether in story or in gameplay), use hints and veiled references. The internal reward for figuring it out "on one's own" is great motivation, and people tend to be more invested in something when they've already put a lot of work and time in it. Being able to puzzle out a mystery is probably one of the stronger motivations for storygame types. (Heck, that's why so many people get mad about spoilers!)
One thing that I think helps motivate a player in any game is to sort of trick them into thinking they're figuring things out. Rather than laying it all out in front of the player with exposition (whether in story or in gameplay), use hints and veiled references. The internal reward for figuring it out "on one's own" is great motivation, and people tend to be more invested in something when they've already put a lot of work and time in it. Being able to puzzle out a mystery is probably one of the stronger motivations for storygame types. (Heck, that's why so many people get mad about spoilers!)
RyaReisender
200
Okay, so if you don't count exploration as plot-related motivation, then how about this:
Give dungeons interesting scenery and be wide-spread with a lot of paths not needed for the plot at all. Ever been in the mountains in real life and seen a hole in the stone wall and really felt motivated to go inside and check it out? This can be a very strong motivation even if there's no reward other than the feeling of exploration.
Mountains usually once were on water level or had a river going near them and the water washed out big caves sometimes. It's really interesting. Going into a place not created by humans that can potentially be huge.
There are many other appeals like that. Pyramids for example also can raise the motivation highly. Something created to prevent anyone from reaching the goal by a culture long forgotten. And it has all the good stuff, deadly traps, maze-like designs, etc.
The key concept you brought up is not necessarily bad by default. But in Kingdom Hearts it was just tedious and annoying. That is because the design of the game is fairly linear. You go from stage to stage. Then you find a key and are supposed to remember where in earlier stages you saw corresponding doors. That's not very fun.
However it can be good in games that are just about exploration, that start out already with many different possible paths. This allows to have much less backtracking because you always have alternative routes you haven't seen yet. A very good example for this is for example Knytt Underground.
Give dungeons interesting scenery and be wide-spread with a lot of paths not needed for the plot at all. Ever been in the mountains in real life and seen a hole in the stone wall and really felt motivated to go inside and check it out? This can be a very strong motivation even if there's no reward other than the feeling of exploration.
Mountains usually once were on water level or had a river going near them and the water washed out big caves sometimes. It's really interesting. Going into a place not created by humans that can potentially be huge.
There are many other appeals like that. Pyramids for example also can raise the motivation highly. Something created to prevent anyone from reaching the goal by a culture long forgotten. And it has all the good stuff, deadly traps, maze-like designs, etc.
The key concept you brought up is not necessarily bad by default. But in Kingdom Hearts it was just tedious and annoying. That is because the design of the game is fairly linear. You go from stage to stage. Then you find a key and are supposed to remember where in earlier stages you saw corresponding doors. That's not very fun.
However it can be good in games that are just about exploration, that start out already with many different possible paths. This allows to have much less backtracking because you always have alternative routes you haven't seen yet. A very good example for this is for example Knytt Underground.
Reading all of these I now have a theory that there's probably 4 different ways to motivate players to go forward that each appeal to a different personality type. I think a combination of all four would be necessary for a good game.
1. Some people are mostly motivated by the storyline. But that's not the topic up for discussion here.
2. Some people just like exploration for explorations sake. I wouldn't underestimate the power of a players curiosity, without it games like Yume Nikki would have never appealed to anyone. (granted Yume Nikki still doesn't appeal to everyone.) I think the best way to motivate explorers is to make the game's world intriguing. If you make the NPCs and environment interesting they will want to interact with everything. And then when they do interact with like a bookcase that leads to a secret passage with some treasure or that goes to a new area they will want to continue to interact with everything. If there's a locked door they're gonna want to open it. And if you reward their curiosity with treasure, unique environments, meeting a new character or a rare monster to fight they are going to want to continue exploring.
3. Some people are reward motivated. They're similar to the explorer but the explorer would be more excited about finding the secret passage while the reward motivated person would be more excited about the treasure chest they found on the other side. The best way to appeal to these people is to reward their actions with money, stronger unique weapons, new spells or moves, new monsters that give more exp. and generally more power as a player.
4. The last type appeals to the human need to obsessively collect things. This is why Animal Crossing works, this is why people play Pokemon trying to catch them all even AFTER beating the storyline, it's why badge systems work in games or people play for 100% completion. Having a badge system or a counter in a games menu can motivate to keep playing until they have gotten them all filled. This can also be easily combined with a rewards system like the golden skulltula's in OOT.
I think another way to show not tell is to create anomalies. I'm going to go back to the monster's blood that can be used as a healing elixir thing. Say up until the player fought this certain monster all their enemies simply vanished upon defeat, but this monsters corpse remains after battle. The player will detect this and interact with the monster and acquire the blood. At that point a message could pop up and say "You got this, it does this" ala Zelda OR maybe the player character gets some on his hand and it heals a wound and he's all like "oh this blood has healing properties". Either way whenever a monster corpse stays instead of vanishing from now on the player is going to want to examine it because they now know they are going to get something out of it.
1. Some people are mostly motivated by the storyline. But that's not the topic up for discussion here.
2. Some people just like exploration for explorations sake. I wouldn't underestimate the power of a players curiosity, without it games like Yume Nikki would have never appealed to anyone. (granted Yume Nikki still doesn't appeal to everyone.) I think the best way to motivate explorers is to make the game's world intriguing. If you make the NPCs and environment interesting they will want to interact with everything. And then when they do interact with like a bookcase that leads to a secret passage with some treasure or that goes to a new area they will want to continue to interact with everything. If there's a locked door they're gonna want to open it. And if you reward their curiosity with treasure, unique environments, meeting a new character or a rare monster to fight they are going to want to continue exploring.
3. Some people are reward motivated. They're similar to the explorer but the explorer would be more excited about finding the secret passage while the reward motivated person would be more excited about the treasure chest they found on the other side. The best way to appeal to these people is to reward their actions with money, stronger unique weapons, new spells or moves, new monsters that give more exp. and generally more power as a player.
4. The last type appeals to the human need to obsessively collect things. This is why Animal Crossing works, this is why people play Pokemon trying to catch them all even AFTER beating the storyline, it's why badge systems work in games or people play for 100% completion. Having a badge system or a counter in a games menu can motivate to keep playing until they have gotten them all filled. This can also be easily combined with a rewards system like the golden skulltula's in OOT.
I think another way to show not tell is to create anomalies. I'm going to go back to the monster's blood that can be used as a healing elixir thing. Say up until the player fought this certain monster all their enemies simply vanished upon defeat, but this monsters corpse remains after battle. The player will detect this and interact with the monster and acquire the blood. At that point a message could pop up and say "You got this, it does this" ala Zelda OR maybe the player character gets some on his hand and it heals a wound and he's all like "oh this blood has healing properties". Either way whenever a monster corpse stays instead of vanishing from now on the player is going to want to examine it because they now know they are going to get something out of it.
