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TREASURE CHESTS: SET LOOT OR LOOT TOKEN?
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Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
Corfaisus
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CloseYou can always count on RPG Maker and a lazy Sunday afternoon for inspiration. While I haven't put much thought into the ups and downs of such a concept, I figured I'd start up a discussion here.
Scenario: You're running through a dungeon when you happen upon a chest. You just got done decking yourself out with awesome equipment back in town and you have a healthy amount of potions/healing magic to get you through this particular place. Opening the chest results in a weapon that you bought in town already, or worse yet, a potion. A standard, entry-level, dime-a-dozen potion.
Question: Would it be better to stay with the tried and true method of making treasure chests that contain set loot, requiring the player to be ready for anything that might come their way; or would you prefer each chest contained a sort of "loot token" that can be traded in to a merchant (this could be swapped out in futuristic games with something like Diamond Geezer from Jet Force Gemini) for a random item, the nature of which would be your chosing?
This would boil down to you talking to said merchant, giving them a token, choosing which item type you want (weapon/armor/item/etc) and having the merchant hand you a random item from a list of what you would likely find around this area of the game (or perhaps something stronger on rare occasions). This way, if you know you're set on weapons, you could choose to go for a piece of armor or a random healing item instead.
You would still be at the mercy of the game and your current situation, but it'd give you some choice in the matter which may help you survive. It would essentially be like a rogue-like with less randomness. Would this come across as making the game too "easy" or "noob-friendly"?
Scenario: You're running through a dungeon when you happen upon a chest. You just got done decking yourself out with awesome equipment back in town and you have a healthy amount of potions/healing magic to get you through this particular place. Opening the chest results in a weapon that you bought in town already, or worse yet, a potion. A standard, entry-level, dime-a-dozen potion.
Question: Would it be better to stay with the tried and true method of making treasure chests that contain set loot, requiring the player to be ready for anything that might come their way; or would you prefer each chest contained a sort of "loot token" that can be traded in to a merchant (this could be swapped out in futuristic games with something like Diamond Geezer from Jet Force Gemini) for a random item, the nature of which would be your chosing?
This would boil down to you talking to said merchant, giving them a token, choosing which item type you want (weapon/armor/item/etc) and having the merchant hand you a random item from a list of what you would likely find around this area of the game (or perhaps something stronger on rare occasions). This way, if you know you're set on weapons, you could choose to go for a piece of armor or a random healing item instead.
You would still be at the mercy of the game and your current situation, but it'd give you some choice in the matter which may help you survive. It would essentially be like a rogue-like with less randomness. Would this come across as making the game too "easy" or "noob-friendly"?
My first thought is that a loot token would have a lot of overlap with regular money, which is also often used for equipment upgrades in your average JRPG.
Loot tokens make a lot of sense for certain games, such as MMOs, where a useless item can mean that 20-40 people just wasted hours of their time, but for a handcrafted, linear JRPG, I would avoid loot tokens.
JRPGs are usually driven by the "rule of cool" factor, to varying extents. They're often about powering up and becoming a real badass, and I think that would be noticeably harmed by replacing a cool, legendary sword with a ticket to get a cool, legendary sword from the nearby shopkeep. Part of the experience is opening up a chest and getting a huge smile when you pull out a blade that you can immediately equip and one-shot enemies with while setting them on fire and growing angel wings, and that effect would definitely be hampered by a waiting period.
Also, for a linear RPG, careful planning should minimize the frequency of players receiving items that aren't helpful to them. Now, maybe each item won't always be what that specific player wants, but there's a big difference between the player getting an item that they aren't personally interested in and one that is too weak or common to help them.
Just my two cents - for what it's worth, loot tokens would totally fit some RPGs, certainly less linear ones or ones that are less "experience-driven".
Loot tokens make a lot of sense for certain games, such as MMOs, where a useless item can mean that 20-40 people just wasted hours of their time, but for a handcrafted, linear JRPG, I would avoid loot tokens.
JRPGs are usually driven by the "rule of cool" factor, to varying extents. They're often about powering up and becoming a real badass, and I think that would be noticeably harmed by replacing a cool, legendary sword with a ticket to get a cool, legendary sword from the nearby shopkeep. Part of the experience is opening up a chest and getting a huge smile when you pull out a blade that you can immediately equip and one-shot enemies with while setting them on fire and growing angel wings, and that effect would definitely be hampered by a waiting period.
Also, for a linear RPG, careful planning should minimize the frequency of players receiving items that aren't helpful to them. Now, maybe each item won't always be what that specific player wants, but there's a big difference between the player getting an item that they aren't personally interested in and one that is too weak or common to help them.
Just my two cents - for what it's worth, loot tokens would totally fit some RPGs, certainly less linear ones or ones that are less "experience-driven".
The thing is, while the idea of a loot token is neat and all, honestly, part of the fun of finding equipment in dungeons is using them right away to upgrade for the upcoming battles. Once in a dungeon I, personally, rarely leave until I've gotten through it so having to wait to redeem said token would be annoying. Even a potion can be useful if you're running out.
So why not just skip the middle man and allow a choice from the chest itself?
Say you have a set amount of chests in the area and a set amount of treasure types. Let them choose which type of treasure they'd like and generate one at random in the chest for the current level the player is at.
Hell, you could attach a jackpot kinda deal where it's a game of skill what kind of prize they get. Those with better upgrades could be a little harder than those with okay ones, but it's all based on skill or maybe even their luck stat - the higher their luck, the more likely they are to get a better treasure.
Also, what I never understood is why there's not more than one item in a chest at a time. Who's to say you can't have equipment and items in the same chest? Hell, even more than one item at a time - I prefer that kind of chest, to be honest, especially if it's tucked away in a corner somewhere - instead of being bummed out that you get one potion, instead you feel a bit better because you got three potions, a life restore and 24 gold. It's not as great as a new weapon, sure, but it's a lot better than a freakin' potion all by itself.
One thing I've done on occasion is use a monetary system to dictate what kind of items are where. So, a treasure chest at the very start of a dungeon will be worth about 50 Gold in prizes, while one that is located in a hidden dead-end after a monster battle will hold a prize worth up to 400 Gold. Whether that be made up of a weapon and a few items, a few pieces of armour, some gold and items or small armour and a semi-decent weapon is another thing.
Hm... if you're making a dungeon crawler where never going back is a main part of the game play, you could make it so that instead of actual gold in treasure chests, a pop-up list of various items (kinda like a chest shop) appears instead and you can choose up to a certain amount of redeemable funds worth of those things. For instance, you find a barrel with 40 gold. Instead of just taking the gold and later redeeming it back at the town, you are presented with a menu consisting of a few choices:
Potion - 5
Mana Restore - 10
Glaive - 40
Shield - 20
Short Sword - 30
Dagger - 25
Poison Flask - 15
And thus you pick up to the 40 Gold worth of prizes. This way, if you need potions you can grab a few and still grab a dagger or something to sell at later actual civilised areas later in the game.
...and now I want to use this system in a game. Fuck.
So why not just skip the middle man and allow a choice from the chest itself?
Say you have a set amount of chests in the area and a set amount of treasure types. Let them choose which type of treasure they'd like and generate one at random in the chest for the current level the player is at.
Hell, you could attach a jackpot kinda deal where it's a game of skill what kind of prize they get. Those with better upgrades could be a little harder than those with okay ones, but it's all based on skill or maybe even their luck stat - the higher their luck, the more likely they are to get a better treasure.
Also, what I never understood is why there's not more than one item in a chest at a time. Who's to say you can't have equipment and items in the same chest? Hell, even more than one item at a time - I prefer that kind of chest, to be honest, especially if it's tucked away in a corner somewhere - instead of being bummed out that you get one potion, instead you feel a bit better because you got three potions, a life restore and 24 gold. It's not as great as a new weapon, sure, but it's a lot better than a freakin' potion all by itself.
One thing I've done on occasion is use a monetary system to dictate what kind of items are where. So, a treasure chest at the very start of a dungeon will be worth about 50 Gold in prizes, while one that is located in a hidden dead-end after a monster battle will hold a prize worth up to 400 Gold. Whether that be made up of a weapon and a few items, a few pieces of armour, some gold and items or small armour and a semi-decent weapon is another thing.
Hm... if you're making a dungeon crawler where never going back is a main part of the game play, you could make it so that instead of actual gold in treasure chests, a pop-up list of various items (kinda like a chest shop) appears instead and you can choose up to a certain amount of redeemable funds worth of those things. For instance, you find a barrel with 40 gold. Instead of just taking the gold and later redeeming it back at the town, you are presented with a menu consisting of a few choices:
Potion - 5
Mana Restore - 10
Glaive - 40
Shield - 20
Short Sword - 30
Dagger - 25
Poison Flask - 15
And thus you pick up to the 40 Gold worth of prizes. This way, if you need potions you can grab a few and still grab a dagger or something to sell at later actual civilised areas later in the game.
...and now I want to use this system in a game. Fuck.
Something similar I did was I would assign a chest to hold a type of item and it gives random contents based on that. For example if I had a status restoration item chest it could randomly give 2x of any low level status healing item. Or sometimes it would scan the player's inventory and see what they're low on and give more of that. Apply the same with equipment: If the party already has an iron sword in their inventory / equipped then check with the iron bow then iron claws. Start on a random item of the appropriate tier and cycle through them, giving a dupe or another item if needed. It's set but still has an element of randomness to it. I did seed the RNG of all these chests when the game starts to prevent save-scumming abuse though.
I also 100% agree with half the fun of chests is being able to use what you find right away. If it's an item you can't use until the dungeon is over then the exact content of the chest is irrelevant, see what you got once you're back in town and sort it out then.
I also 100% agree with half the fun of chests is being able to use what you find right away. If it's an item you can't use until the dungeon is over then the exact content of the chest is irrelevant, see what you got once you're back in town and sort it out then.
RyaReisender
200
I prefer fixed loot.
But of course a treasure chest should NEVER contain equip that can also be purchased. Either a better weapon/armor than you can buy or even better - an alternative version like for example a fur armor that has less DEF than the best armor you can buy in town, but gives you resistance to ice attacks.
But of course a treasure chest should NEVER contain equip that can also be purchased. Either a better weapon/armor than you can buy or even better - an alternative version like for example a fur armor that has less DEF than the best armor you can buy in town, but gives you resistance to ice attacks.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I forgot to mention this specifically but the merchant would probably be somewhere in the middle of the dungeon instead of outside of it so it wouldn't be like you'd have to head back to town to cash in your tokens.
That's a really cool idea actually. What I was concerned with most is if it'd be better to give the player a choice in the loot they get and find a way to make that make sense, or if they'd be happier taking whatever comes their way, making a static experience for all players across the board.
author=GreatRedSpirit
Something similar I did was I would assign a chest to hold a type of item and it gives random contents based on that. For example if I had a status restoration item chest it could randomly give 2x of any low level status healing item. Or sometimes it would scan the player's inventory and see what they're low on and give more of that.
That's a really cool idea actually. What I was concerned with most is if it'd be better to give the player a choice in the loot they get and find a way to make that make sense, or if they'd be happier taking whatever comes their way, making a static experience for all players across the board.
I think the loot token idea is a good one, if you could use it in-dungeon, or perhaps even right away? Maybe via an option on the menu?
Overall, that's a mechanic that I don't think I've seen anywhere else and would be pretty cool.
Overall, that's a mechanic that I don't think I've seen anywhere else and would be pretty cool.
Crystalgate
694
Why not give a piece of equipment that's not available until the next town? That's the easiest way to ensure it will be useful.
As for the question asked, the problem with letting the player choose is that it makes no sense. It also makes them sameish although that's certainly not worse than useless loot.
As for the question asked, the problem with letting the player choose is that it makes no sense. It also makes them sameish although that's certainly not worse than useless loot.
"Say you have a set amount of chests in the area and a set amount of treasure types. Let them choose which type of treasure they'd like and generate one at random in the chest for the current level the player is at.
Hell, you could attach a jackpot kinda deal where it's a game of skill what kind of prize they get. Those with better upgrades could be a little harder than those with okay ones, but it's all based on skill or maybe even their luck stat - the higher their luck, the more likely they are to get a better treasure. "
This really bothers me because it makes no freaking narrative sense "IN-WORLD"/"IN-UNIVERSE", which is something I care about a lot (maybe too much).
Hell, you could attach a jackpot kinda deal where it's a game of skill what kind of prize they get. Those with better upgrades could be a little harder than those with okay ones, but it's all based on skill or maybe even their luck stat - the higher their luck, the more likely they are to get a better treasure. "
This really bothers me because it makes no freaking narrative sense "IN-WORLD"/"IN-UNIVERSE", which is something I care about a lot (maybe too much).
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=unity
I'm guessing "talking, sentient benevolent treasure chests" aren't a good in-world explanation? :P
Neither is treasure chests left unlocked that contain earth-splitting magical weapons that no one has yet to find lying just inside a small cave on the outskirts of town.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=unityActually, this would make way more sense than a lot of games' treasure chests.
I'm guessing "talking, sentient benevolent treasure chests" aren't a good in-world explanation? :P
The "sensible" alternative would be to call it a crafting system. You found an ice crystal! Play this quick fifteen-second blacksmithing minigame to determine whether your party's blacksmith ends up turning it into an ice rod, ice shield, or ice dagger.
author=Max McGee
"Say you have a set amount of chests in the area and a set amount of treasure types. Let them choose which type of treasure they'd like and generate one at random in the chest for the current level the player is at.
Hell, you could attach a jackpot kinda deal where it's a game of skill what kind of prize they get. Those with better upgrades could be a little harder than those with okay ones, but it's all based on skill or maybe even their luck stat - the higher their luck, the more likely they are to get a better treasure. "
This really bothers me because it makes no freaking narrative sense "IN-WORLD"/"IN-UNIVERSE", which is something I care about a lot (maybe too much).
Heh, I'm thinking Juppo from Suikoden who would go around creating random puzzles in places. With enough imagination you can make any idea plausible. A travelling guild of crazy tinkerers who fill chests with interesting bits and bobs, but only for those who can overcome the skill challenge. To be completely honest, when I floated that idea, I had in mind a chest with various openings that would open only when you hit the sweet spot. So if you hit a dud, only one side would swing open, but if you hit a good spot you'd get three compartments of five unlocked.
In fact, a lot of crazy puzzles you see in RPGs don't make that much sense. Like, how do they reset? You're not the first person to ever step foot in the Cave of Doom (TM) so how come you're finding bodies of other travellers past the point of unsolved puzzles? And where do chests come from anyway? How come they're full of prizes in the middle of an underground cavern that has never seen man before? And they just so happen to be weapons that haven't aged a day and aren't rusted to hell and back? Especially watery zones!
Again, you can make anything work with enough ingenuity! And application of Blind Powder (TM).
@LockeZ: I like that idea a lot. Another thought, a rusted weapon that you can't tell what it is until it's seen the blacksmith who just so happens to be travelling with your party lucky you. I don't know why more people don't allow merchants and the like to travel with them through dungeons - it only makes sense that a party of adventurers heading through a monster-strewn passage would be approached by travelling merchants and hired to take them through safely.
author=Corfaisusauthor=unityNeither is treasure chests left unlocked that contain earth-splitting magical weapons that no one has yet to find lying just inside a small cave on the outskirts of town.
I'm guessing "talking, sentient benevolent treasure chests" aren't a good in-world explanation? :P
Yep! Though the game I'm making has enough silly elements that I'm actually considering the "talking, sentient benevolent treasure chests" as I think letting the player decide what kind of loot they get is a cool idea. They could be like the good version of Mimics or something XD
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