GROUP GAMES: HOW TO MAKE IT WORK?
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So, I'm reading Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking. And they talk about how the big team project approach usually creates sucky results, while working alone tends to create more creative stuff (I can attest to that, some of the games here are weird). They mention that the top programmers in a contest didn't necessarily have more training, more money, or anything like that. They had more quiet time without interruptions (for instance, motion alarm malfunctioning or answering machine beeping), whereas the bottom were pestered by people constantly.
They also went into the history of brainstorming, and how it was an effort to mine ideas in groups, without criticism. But it didn't really work. You had three categories: loafers, people who like to hear themselves speak, and people who were afraid to be told their ideas are stupid. They then did a brain study, and found something creepy, that the larger the group the more individuals basically tried to match the group mentality for fear of being outcasted. Also, people who like to hear themselves speak were generally not the brightest but just the best presenters.
Only, if I led a group game, I don't want a professional cookie cutter game. I want the game to finish, obviously so it has to be united, but only loosely. I want everyone to step up, and find their role in the group, not look to the leader. (This is also the annoyance I had with Walmart, it seemed like alot of the employees were like "not my job" and so I'd get all the nuisance customers, because I tried to be proactive. This was even my supervisors as I was a lowly sales associate so if something needed doing, you'd have to do it yourself or ask help from random people) I've seen a few project games, so I guess there is some method of having it work, where people have different schedules, etc. So, how do we make a setting where group work is done but remaining the sense of autonomy that this book describes?
They also went into the history of brainstorming, and how it was an effort to mine ideas in groups, without criticism. But it didn't really work. You had three categories: loafers, people who like to hear themselves speak, and people who were afraid to be told their ideas are stupid. They then did a brain study, and found something creepy, that the larger the group the more individuals basically tried to match the group mentality for fear of being outcasted. Also, people who like to hear themselves speak were generally not the brightest but just the best presenters.
Only, if I led a group game, I don't want a professional cookie cutter game. I want the game to finish, obviously so it has to be united, but only loosely. I want everyone to step up, and find their role in the group, not look to the leader. (This is also the annoyance I had with Walmart, it seemed like alot of the employees were like "not my job" and so I'd get all the nuisance customers, because I tried to be proactive. This was even my supervisors as I was a lowly sales associate so if something needed doing, you'd have to do it yourself or ask help from random people) I've seen a few project games, so I guess there is some method of having it work, where people have different schedules, etc. So, how do we make a setting where group work is done but remaining the sense of autonomy that this book describes?
This is very interesting.
I haven't read on the subject and have only a few experiences working with other designers as a designer. It's definitely simpler when you're the only designer in a team.
I think that in a team of designers you have to put your pride aside and be ready to question your own visions and ideas, and give more weight to the general consensus than to anyone's individual view. It can be difficult to do so but don't get emotionally attached to your ideas, because the others aren't. You have to be open to discussing all kinds of ideas and alternatives and eventually some people will take sides or vote. What the game needs in order to be an overall satisfying product is greater than what the designers believe are the best ideas.
About involvement and responsibilities, I think it's fine for some to be less proactive as long as it is expected from the get go and everyone has agreed to it. If the terms of the partnership aren't clear right when you begin work, you'll have to suck it up when the others let you down. That's loathsome, but you usually can't do anything about it anyway. If partners show a lack of motivation or poor productivity I'd say it's best not to waste your time waiting on them. Seek new partners. Or quit that poisonous job and find another one. Or tolerate the situation, try to still be contempt despite the flaws but never forget that you deserve better than this.
I haven't read on the subject and have only a few experiences working with other designers as a designer. It's definitely simpler when you're the only designer in a team.
I think that in a team of designers you have to put your pride aside and be ready to question your own visions and ideas, and give more weight to the general consensus than to anyone's individual view. It can be difficult to do so but don't get emotionally attached to your ideas, because the others aren't. You have to be open to discussing all kinds of ideas and alternatives and eventually some people will take sides or vote. What the game needs in order to be an overall satisfying product is greater than what the designers believe are the best ideas.
About involvement and responsibilities, I think it's fine for some to be less proactive as long as it is expected from the get go and everyone has agreed to it. If the terms of the partnership aren't clear right when you begin work, you'll have to suck it up when the others let you down. That's loathsome, but you usually can't do anything about it anyway. If partners show a lack of motivation or poor productivity I'd say it's best not to waste your time waiting on them. Seek new partners. Or quit that poisonous job and find another one. Or tolerate the situation, try to still be contempt despite the flaws but never forget that you deserve better than this.
I personally think there needs to be one lead designer that does all the decisions. It's best if that stays in one hand. The lead designer just needs to be good and able to listen to feedback, but he shouldn't give part of the game design into other hands completely.
Group games can work if everyone in the team enjoy doing something else the most and then everybody does what he likes most. The game designer needs to be able to adjust his design according to the input, this usually results in better quality (for example if first the artist draws all the monster sprites and then the game designer thinks of how to fit them into the game, the result is usually better than if the game designer dictates what monsters he needs and how they should look like). This also has the positive side-effect of the game designer not getting frustrated (aka "he totally didn't draw it like I imagined"). A good game designer is able to work with what he gets.
So group work for me still means, everybody does something else:
- ONE person does the graphics
- ONE person does the music
- ONE person does the dialogues
- ONE person does the dungeon design
- ONE person does the battle system
etc.
The lead designer can take one or more of the tasks above, but "outsourcing" them won't reduce the quality in this case and the lead designer can concentrate more on the remaining tasks.
The only thing that should be done by several people is testing.
Group games can work if everyone in the team enjoy doing something else the most and then everybody does what he likes most. The game designer needs to be able to adjust his design according to the input, this usually results in better quality (for example if first the artist draws all the monster sprites and then the game designer thinks of how to fit them into the game, the result is usually better than if the game designer dictates what monsters he needs and how they should look like). This also has the positive side-effect of the game designer not getting frustrated (aka "he totally didn't draw it like I imagined"). A good game designer is able to work with what he gets.
So group work for me still means, everybody does something else:
- ONE person does the graphics
- ONE person does the music
- ONE person does the dialogues
- ONE person does the dungeon design
- ONE person does the battle system
etc.
The lead designer can take one or more of the tasks above, but "outsourcing" them won't reduce the quality in this case and the lead designer can concentrate more on the remaining tasks.
The only thing that should be done by several people is testing.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I've had some very different experiences with team projects. I've got one team project that has worked more or less perfectly, which is great. Two projects that were really one-man projects that were seeking help, and the people offering help eventually flaked out, sometimes before actually providing the help (but sometimes returned months later). Several group projects that never got off the ground due to bad leadership. And one group project that miraculously got off the ground despite bad leadership, but was never going to get finished, until I got somehow conned into taking it over and doing the work of all the dropouts.
I can tell you one thing that doesn't work at all, which is to assemble a team of people and then not give them anything to do for the first two months because they're waiting on you to finish assembling scripts and a story outline. In fact, waiting two days to give them stuff to do is too long. Everything has to keep moving. If you lose momentum, you lose your team. Make sure the team members have a place they're all posting where they can see each-others' work, so that they feed off of each-others' momentum instead of always relying on yours.
In my successful team project, which is an online game that makes continuous updates, I joined the team several years after the game was already "released" and eventually became the lead developer of the game simply by outlasting everyone else. That said, many other team members stuck around for years at a time. Part of what encouraged this was probably the interview process - if you want to become a staff member on the game, you have to be a current player with a good amount of experience in the game, but then once you join the staff you're not allowed to log onto your player account until you finish about 50 hours of work. This is mostly meant to help curb cheating - it takes most people a few months, by which time the novelty of being able to cheat in a game they played for months/years has worn off. But it has the side-effect of both filtering out people who aren't serious, and giving a "sunk cost fallacy" type motivation to the ones who do join. If you put three or four hours into a project you could easily quit, but after 50 hours of work most people will stick around, even if they don't feel like doing more right away. Momentum stops being such a necessity because they've committed themselves by that point.
I'm not sure how you could use this kind of psychology in a more typical, offline freeware project. You don't have anything to withhold from them, so they have nothing to lose if they flake out immediately after you spend an entire day explaining their first assignment for them. I suppose you could offer to help them with something in return? Everyone has their own personal projects too, after all. If you help me with my game, I'll help you with your game. That's as good a relationship as any.
Edit: ...I'm confused, I didn't realize I had this much experience. When did all this stuff happen?
I can tell you one thing that doesn't work at all, which is to assemble a team of people and then not give them anything to do for the first two months because they're waiting on you to finish assembling scripts and a story outline. In fact, waiting two days to give them stuff to do is too long. Everything has to keep moving. If you lose momentum, you lose your team. Make sure the team members have a place they're all posting where they can see each-others' work, so that they feed off of each-others' momentum instead of always relying on yours.
In my successful team project, which is an online game that makes continuous updates, I joined the team several years after the game was already "released" and eventually became the lead developer of the game simply by outlasting everyone else. That said, many other team members stuck around for years at a time. Part of what encouraged this was probably the interview process - if you want to become a staff member on the game, you have to be a current player with a good amount of experience in the game, but then once you join the staff you're not allowed to log onto your player account until you finish about 50 hours of work. This is mostly meant to help curb cheating - it takes most people a few months, by which time the novelty of being able to cheat in a game they played for months/years has worn off. But it has the side-effect of both filtering out people who aren't serious, and giving a "sunk cost fallacy" type motivation to the ones who do join. If you put three or four hours into a project you could easily quit, but after 50 hours of work most people will stick around, even if they don't feel like doing more right away. Momentum stops being such a necessity because they've committed themselves by that point.
I'm not sure how you could use this kind of psychology in a more typical, offline freeware project. You don't have anything to withhold from them, so they have nothing to lose if they flake out immediately after you spend an entire day explaining their first assignment for them. I suppose you could offer to help them with something in return? Everyone has their own personal projects too, after all. If you help me with my game, I'll help you with your game. That's as good a relationship as any.
Edit: ...I'm confused, I didn't realize I had this much experience. When did all this stuff happen?
author=RyaReisender
- ONE person does the graphics
- ONE person does the music
- ONE person does the dialogues
- ONE person does the dungeon design
- ONE person does the battle system
etc.
I've tried this and I found that it never works (unless I'm working with rhyme). I find it hard to give something to one person. If anything, if I can, I'd like 2-4 people working on the same area (e.g. art) and make sure that I can be on part with the quality. If all of them quit I can still carry the baggage. And I want all my assets to be reusable on a game later than just specifically for that game.
I also hate it when someone drops off contact, that's the easiest way to kill of motivation and productivity.
I had an opposite experience - the best team I've ever worked on was one where we had a dedicated 2D artist, a dedicated 3D artist, a dedicated programmer and a dedicated level designer (me). I also acted as the unofficial "leader" because I was the one who would send out e-mails about meetings and run between the members to make sure there was no communication disruption between anyone (it helped that I knew both art and code, although not as well as the specialists).
Being able to trust everyone to their own specialties without needing constant supervision is fantastic. Knowing that your teammates will bring up any issues they have instead of burying them makes organization a breeze. Having members who are honest about what they are capable (or incapable!) of doing makes planning much simpler and reduces crisis.
I guess if everyone has a lot of passion for the project, it makes it much easier. That's only happened to me once, though. It can be really hard to find people like that, and really hard to get people on the same page for a project, so maybe I just got really lucky.
Being able to trust everyone to their own specialties without needing constant supervision is fantastic. Knowing that your teammates will bring up any issues they have instead of burying them makes organization a breeze. Having members who are honest about what they are capable (or incapable!) of doing makes planning much simpler and reduces crisis.
I guess if everyone has a lot of passion for the project, it makes it much easier. That's only happened to me once, though. It can be really hard to find people like that, and really hard to get people on the same page for a project, so maybe I just got really lucky.
author=RyaReisender
Group games can work if everyone in the team enjoy doing something else the most and then everybody does what he likes most. The game designer needs to be able to adjust his design according to the input, this usually results in better quality (for example if first the artist draws all the monster sprites and then the game designer thinks of how to fit them into the game, the result is usually better than if the game designer dictates what monsters he needs and how they should look like). This also has the positive side-effect of the game designer not getting frustrated (aka "he totally didn't draw it like I imagined"). A good game designer is able to work with what he gets.
So group work for me still means, everybody does something else:
- ONE person does the graphics
- ONE person does the music
- ONE person does the dialogues
- ONE person does the dungeon design
- ONE person does the battle system
etc.
The lead designer can take one or more of the tasks above, but "outsourcing" them won't reduce the quality in this case and the lead designer can concentrate more on the remaining tasks.
The only thing that should be done by several people is testing.
What happens when members (as are sometimes likely to do) bail? Does the leader give this work to others, or take it on him/her self? Or should he/she find a new person?
author=LockeZ
I can tell you one thing that doesn't work at all, which is to assemble a team of people and then not give them anything to do for the first two months because they're waiting on you to finish assembling scripts and a story outline. In fact, waiting two days to give them stuff to do is too long. Everything has to keep moving. If you lose momentum, you lose your team. Make sure the team members have a place they're all posting where they can see each-others' work, so that they feed off of each-others' momentum instead of always relying on yours.
I think that's part of the issue, I don't have a dropbox account, so in many places, this leads to a quick leader fall apart. I was in exactly one group rpg, and it was on RpgRevolution. They published it on threads, rather than in some sort of pool, so the info was getting out there, but we kept making new threads, and it was like spaghetti, just sorta all over the place. Eventually, we did in fact lose momentum. Locke, you have experience in everything. Some of it is just experience in giving good advice, since you've tried alot.
I think the sorta leader I am is kinda like this TCM film I saw. It was called Man of Iron. This guy was basically one of the workers, and led by being sort of among the people rather than above them. He's a good leader, and gets promoted. He acts like a typical boardroom flunky, at the urging of a guy who wanted his job, and thus wants to sabotage him. So the guy who was a steel worker spends alot of his day golfing, and the workers go on strike because the guy who wants his job is doing shady stuff and blaming it on him. The other guy gets his comeuppance, and the first one is made president of the company (the owner knows he's a good leader, but doesn't really have a good sense of how to deal with him). The next day, he's not in the boardroom, he's in the factory.
Most of the better leaders I've seen worked with me. They had jobs of their own, but they weren't aloof. Well, with the exception of Walmart, where the supervisors were so aloof that we generally had to be leaders ourselves. So yea, I think it's good that we have disjointed efforts with each member. The leader, then, should be part of the team, not so much the guy who bosses people around, as the bridge. They playtest the game after new ideas from the programmer, and code themselves to wipe out glitches (their code should be clean and respect the style of the programmer, while still being streamlined and function). They also help put in all the dialogue so the coder can work on the codes of events. They look at the art and are like "I want wings here, like this" and do a rough sketch on a separate page, or describe the general look of the characters, using costumes if needed. They find out what battles there are in the game, and work on drafting some of them. Etc.
Of course, you're not likely to be good at everything, but you should be good enough to get across what you want. And you've gotta at the same time give space to people to produce their own stuff.
Why aren't you able to get a dropbox account? they're free, after all. it's a good thing to have, and can even be key to local collaborations, let alone long distance projects.
author=LockeZ
And one group project that miraculously got off the ground despite bad leadership, but was never going to get finished, until I got somehow conned into taking it over and doing the work of all the dropouts.
I know which project he's talking about here!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I liked how you just sort of added me as a lead designer when you made the game page for it. Clever strategy. Fortunately for you, my ego outweighed my common sense.
What happens when members (as are sometimes likely to do) bail? Does the leader give this work to others, or take it on him/her self? Or should he/she find a new person?
That's a problem of "free" games where you can't pay the other team members. This usually lead me to cancelling the project since I didn't want different styles to be mixed together.
It's as slashphoenix already wrote: What's important is that you trust each other. The team projects that actually worked out from my experiences were those where all the people knew each other in real life. It's much harder to just disappear then.
author=LockeZ
I liked how you just sort of added me as a lead designer when you made the game page for it. Clever strategy. Fortunately for you, my ego outweighed my common sense.
That would never work for me. I tend to hate being actually be told I'm leader, so the only time I show leadership is if everyone (including my superiors) is slacking, and the job needs doing.
author=RyaReisender
That's a problem of "free" games where you can't pay the other team members. This usually lead me to cancelling the project since I didn't want different styles to be mixed together.
It's as slashphoenix already wrote: What's important is that you trust each other. The team projects that actually worked out from my experiences were those where all the people knew each other in real life. It's much harder to just disappear then.
I don't think pay is directly related. I think it's more indirect, as in, I have a fulltime job so I have no time for this. If pay was directly related, the more you paid the more likely they'd stick around, but this isn't always the case.
Being the leader is totally fine for me and I tend to be pretty good at it, but I treat the role as more of an "organizer" or "manager". I don't really want to have any more say about the overall design or ideas going in to a project than anyone else on the team, I just like to make sure everyone communicates game ideas, workload, schedules, and stuff like that :)
Having a team and being a leader mean that you have to be able to do what everyone else is doing in case they leave. In most cases I would at most ask someone to do one specific area of my game that I could probably do, but in order to save time I have someone else do it. But if that person drops out I'm still more than capable of continuing what I started. I usually don't go around asking people to make me a slew of graphical resources / scripts because I would have no idea what to do if that person ditched.
Actually "No Gold for Brigands" started out as a team game. The other person dropped out, doing practically nothing in a several month period, but my development skills were good enough to try my best to finish the game.
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