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[POLL] ACCOUNTING FOR TASTE
Poll
(For instance), how many people need to tell you they hate the battle music you love before you actually change it? - Results
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One person. If anyone hates it, it must be bad!
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1
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2%
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Two people. If two people hate it, it REALLY must be bad.
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3
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8%
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Six people can't be wrong.
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12
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34%
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Twelve or more people hate this battle music. Maybe I'm wrong about it.
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10
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28%
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I WILL *NEVER* CHANGE IT
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9
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25%
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Posts
Dudesoft
View playlists
CloseWell, this applies to comics as well, so I'll add my two cents.
Professionally, you gotta do what you feel is best. There will always be the people who hate something or blast you for something ridiculous. Or just try to take you down a notch to, what, make themselves feel better? Ignore the haters, and do what you love or believe in. Other likeminded people will enjoy it just the same.
In reality, I lose interest in projects or even skill sets based on negative feedback. I've pretty much given up on writing and game making based on the negatives. Comics, I basicly fart around with because I know the haters are waiting, at the ready, to shoot me down.
Professionally, you gotta do what you feel is best. There will always be the people who hate something or blast you for something ridiculous. Or just try to take you down a notch to, what, make themselves feel better? Ignore the haters, and do what you love or believe in. Other likeminded people will enjoy it just the same.
In reality, I lose interest in projects or even skill sets based on negative feedback. I've pretty much given up on writing and game making based on the negatives. Comics, I basicly fart around with because I know the haters are waiting, at the ready, to shoot me down.
author=Dudesoft
I've pretty much given up on writing and game making based on the negatives.
Man, if this is true it really sucks. I empathize, seriously, because I have been very close to this point myself (Also, actually, I am semi-retired from serious writing, honestly, but that's not because of haters, that's because writing is hard fucking work).
author=Isrieri
Not to change the topic, but if this were an absolute right, why do so many nerds give George Lucas so much shit for the prequels? Its the same principle: His movie, he can make it how he wants.
Um simply because they also have the right to think that he's a hack XD.
Spoilers: he is a hack. But he has the right to go on being a hack.
But anyone who seriously suggested that George Lucas should be like...actually jailed for his hackery or something of that ilk? Or someone who seriously suggested he is literally not ALLOWED to crap out the terrible schlock he's producing? Yeah that person is literally an actual fucking crazed fascist. I'm not gonna discuss this more because it's an extreme theroetical/hypothetical case I'm pretty sure basically doesn't actually exist in the wild.
***
author=Isrieri
The real problem of this topic is that it is impossible in this era of the internet to please everyone. You're going to piss someone off and unlike decades past, you'll hear the brunt of that criticism and hatred unfiltered
This is absolutely true. And it really does take an iron hide to keep on going.
***
author=Pizza
A lot of the time it's not a simple matter of More People = More Reason.
It depends. If we're talking about something like difficulty...if five people think that a game is too hard, and the creator alone thinks that it is balanced just right, chances are the creator is wrong.
And the more problematic side of that is that...even if the creator is not wrong, the creator will appear to be because of this situation.
***
It's weird I mean this is such an amazingly complex issue but it's weird how much boils down to the hypothetical question I've composed. I mean the answer is pretty telling. How much are you going to let the musical tastes of strangers effect the final content of YOUR game?
And what are the mitigating factors of that, that make some opinions more valuable than others? This qualitative side of the issue is one I didn't think of when I was making the topic. I'm seeing a lot of people saying they value the opinion of trusted friends and collaborators, and many others saying they value the opinions of qualified experts, over random comments, still others saying that they value any reasoned, well-argued opinion over one that doesn't seem well thought out. So that's interesting, too.
TheNecromancer
3160
Sorry, didn't read the whole topic, just the op. Might be a little off-topic but I can't exactly be on-topic.
My opinion is that no matter how awesome a single track can be, nobody should be forced to listen to the same track for all battles. I hate that this is considered normal and nobody really tries anything different. People fill the box that says "battle bgm" and never think of it again.
Music is very important to me. I hate repetition. So I believe that this shouldn't even be a question. There should be variety in all musical choices not only in case someone doesn't like your music choice, but when they simply want to hear something different. So I can't answer this poll and I would suggest everyone find a way to avoid picking a single music track whether people like it or not.
Music choices are the easiest thing to provide the player options for. Why settle for such simple choices? Every RPG I ever played had this issue, so it's not just RM games that make me feel this way. I played ffxi for years with the same battle music. Fucking lame, no matter how decent the music is. Most music gets old after 100's/1000's of listens.
My opinion is that no matter how awesome a single track can be, nobody should be forced to listen to the same track for all battles. I hate that this is considered normal and nobody really tries anything different. People fill the box that says "battle bgm" and never think of it again.
Music is very important to me. I hate repetition. So I believe that this shouldn't even be a question. There should be variety in all musical choices not only in case someone doesn't like your music choice, but when they simply want to hear something different. So I can't answer this poll and I would suggest everyone find a way to avoid picking a single music track whether people like it or not.
Let's not quibble with "compromise" options like making the battle music random or selectable in an options menu. Because once you've done anything like that, you've already made a deviation from your personal taste. For our purposes, that's changing it.I'm not looking to quibble but it's not exactly a deviation if you pick multiple tracks that all fit your taste. Or if you create some kind of playlist with choices you like and some you dislike, you're simply anticipating the obvious variety of tastes of your players. As opposed to caving into criticism of your taste.
Music choices are the easiest thing to provide the player options for. Why settle for such simple choices? Every RPG I ever played had this issue, so it's not just RM games that make me feel this way. I played ffxi for years with the same battle music. Fucking lame, no matter how decent the music is. Most music gets old after 100's/1000's of listens.
FF14 improved on 11's job... by having minor variations of the battle theme and a small handful of common/minor boss themes 
* I wish they had an option to turn off battle/boss music like you can turn off mount music (and, while the personal chocobo music isn't good the non-chocobo mount theme is fucking aces, but you can't use a different mount than your chocobo if you have it out for combat).
I don't mind the battle playlist but I'd prefer to have some control over it. Sometimes you just really don't like some of the music choices, or want to hear a really good one for a while. In Warriors Orochi 3 you can pick the music of any mission after completing it with any track from the game which was a godsend when it came time to grind. Of course the duration of a level in WO3 and your average jrpg battle are an order of magnitude or two different. I think being able to select the battle playlist, even just turning off songs, would be sufficient to have your cake and eating it too.
* The boss themes for big bosses are usually pretty good though
I don't mind the battle playlist but I'd prefer to have some control over it. Sometimes you just really don't like some of the music choices, or want to hear a really good one for a while. In Warriors Orochi 3 you can pick the music of any mission after completing it with any track from the game which was a godsend when it came time to grind. Of course the duration of a level in WO3 and your average jrpg battle are an order of magnitude or two different. I think being able to select the battle playlist, even just turning off songs, would be sufficient to have your cake and eating it too.
* The boss themes for big bosses are usually pretty good though
I like to write about silly things, and zany adventures. My first book was a flop, and even the good reviews I got more or less said they didn't understand the humour, and that, in one case, the reviewer's husband enjoyed it. I'm in the vein of Terry Pratchett, Douglas Adams, Piers Anthony and Robert Asprin. Or at least that was my aspiration. Certain people who are close to me IRL have been extremely unsupportive to the point I couldn't look at anything I wrote without a frown.
Then I tried my hand at a serious dystopian horror book, and found myself bordering onncopycatting Fehreinheit 451(#?), and Logan's Run.
So yes, gave up. It is a mere hobby now, along with everything else. Sounds like a pity party post, but not.
Then I tried my hand at a serious dystopian horror book, and found myself bordering onncopycatting Fehreinheit 451(#?), and Logan's Run.
So yes, gave up. It is a mere hobby now, along with everything else. Sounds like a pity party post, but not.
I’ll only really change something that’s in place if pretty much the vast majority, or more than 50% of the feedback given, says that it is, indeed, a major problem and it’s one of the most glaring reasons that I often get about why this said game isn’t as good as it can be. Of course, if it’s just one or two people saying something totally nonsensical about something that is absolutely minor or something that doesn’t contribute to the gameplay at all and is just a minor preference issue, then I’m not going to do anything about it other than heed their opinion…and maybe just be a d*ck behind the scenes and secretly laugh about it. (Hehehehe…)
In regards to music selection and battle themes and what not, well – you tell me if this is bad:
Usually I always try to get all the music that I need first, listen to them wherever I go (basketball, walking, bus, work, sauna / etc.) and as the game gets worked on and as more progress gets made, I’ll either cut out some tracks to save space or reuse a few of them or rearrange them around in order for them to see fit. I always find that having the whole soundtrack available first helps me set what the rest of the game is going to be like, as I can plan out all my moves out more carefully.
And as for changing that said piece of music, well…no. I mean, to me, it’s already set in stone way before I start putting anything down in the editor. If somebody doesn’t like a said song from the game, then it’s either “too bad, so sad,” as they probably have different musical tastes than you and it can’t be helped, or find a way to maybe provide the player with multiple song choices with the option of toggling what songs play or not.
Besides, game making is a tough, tedious business. I don’t mind bending down backwards for some people to make them happy, but they also have to understand that doing something over-and-over again for the 5th time just to please one or two people isn’t really entirely worth it, as it just wastes more time and effort in regards to actually completing the game, which is primarily the ultimate goal here.
In regards to music selection and battle themes and what not, well – you tell me if this is bad:
Usually I always try to get all the music that I need first, listen to them wherever I go (basketball, walking, bus, work, sauna / etc.) and as the game gets worked on and as more progress gets made, I’ll either cut out some tracks to save space or reuse a few of them or rearrange them around in order for them to see fit. I always find that having the whole soundtrack available first helps me set what the rest of the game is going to be like, as I can plan out all my moves out more carefully.
And as for changing that said piece of music, well…no. I mean, to me, it’s already set in stone way before I start putting anything down in the editor. If somebody doesn’t like a said song from the game, then it’s either “too bad, so sad,” as they probably have different musical tastes than you and it can’t be helped, or find a way to maybe provide the player with multiple song choices with the option of toggling what songs play or not.
Besides, game making is a tough, tedious business. I don’t mind bending down backwards for some people to make them happy, but they also have to understand that doing something over-and-over again for the 5th time just to please one or two people isn’t really entirely worth it, as it just wastes more time and effort in regards to actually completing the game, which is primarily the ultimate goal here.
author=Link_2112
My opinion is that no matter how awesome a single track can be, nobody should be forced to listen to the same track for all battles. I hate that this is considered normal and nobody really tries anything different. People fill the box that says "battle bgm" and never think of it again.
Wait, WHAT 'PEOPLE' DO THIS?
Certainly not THIS people.
You're preaching to the choir here. I'm one of the few devs who've actually released games with selectable or random or both selectable and random battle music.
Iron Gaia: Virus let you rotate through four or so normal battle BGMs midis at random or just pick the one you like best.
Everything Turns Gray had a 'Battle Radio' feature that would play random (YMMVpop) punk (YMMVrock) songs during battle: this was inspired by the in-game radio in games like Fallout and Grand Theft Auto. Switch that off if you don't like that kind of music and IIRC it still cycled through a few different midis.
So yes, by this standard/metric, I personally am better than Squenix. Go forth and enjoy the variety of my battle medleys. <3
Heck, the only games I've made where I didn't vary up the battle music were ones that didn't have battle music, ones where I didn't get around to it before abandoning the project, and ones where I just personally wouldn't mind listening to that track over and over for five thousand hours.
Should more people be awesome like me and program some variety into the battle music? Probably. But generally speaking, as long as the battle BGM is GOOD, I don't mind listening to the same one for every (regular) battle in the game--at least it's not a sticking point.
Related Note: Generally speaking, even when I am planning on varying the battle music, I don't program/event in the variety until I have logged x hundred hours testing the game. This is part of testing to make sure that the original piece of battle music is 'good enough'. It can't be something I tire of anything close to quickly, though I WILL get tired of it EVENTUALLY.
author=Dudesoft
My first book was a flop, and even the good reviews I got more or less said they didn't understand the humour, and that, in one case, the reviewer's husband enjoyed it. I'm in the vein of Terry Pratchett, Douglas Adams, Piers Anthony and Robert Asprin. Or at least that was my aspiration. Certain people who are close to me IRL have been extremely unsupportive to the point I couldn't look at anything I wrote without a frown.
That's sad, man. I mean, I understand though. In the summer of 2008 with my freshly minted degree in creative writing and a single published (not self published, like, fo'real published, not that I haven't self-published me some stuff since) I very much treated writing like a full time job, I wrote up and revised three short stories to the point where I thought they were the tightest, tautest thing I'd ever written, did a ton of market research, and mailed out like five submissions of each story to a total of like fifteen magazines. And collected like twelve rejection slips and three motherfuckers just did not bother to respond AT ALL. And I was like...fuck this. I mean that is pretty much the point where I unchecked the "Occupation: Writer" box and checked the "Occupation: Game Designer" box.
author=Addit
I like it, it works. It's a tiny bit slow at the beginning. And it doesn't like completely knock my socks off. But I totally wouldn't complain about it either (seems to fade out kinda early, though).
For my money, it depends on the quality of the song and its appropriateness. However, sometimes you can get away with a completely inappropriate song, because it's funny and/or jarring.
Normally, battle themes are upbeat and... victorious. Right? Well, after giving it some thought, I decided for Tales From The Reaper, this would make a better theme.
Why? Duh, Reapers.
Anyway, it's your call. 12 people can make a convincing case, or even one. But maybe for one song, it's just gotta be that specific song, even if everyone else says "why did you pick that?"
This horribly dissonant and messed up tune? Yeah, it fits a specific scene. You all hate it. Too. Bad.
Last example:
Heartwarming music during an onscreen suicide. No break at all, the music continues playing.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoundtrackDissonance
Normally, battle themes are upbeat and... victorious. Right? Well, after giving it some thought, I decided for Tales From The Reaper, this would make a better theme.
Why? Duh, Reapers.
Anyway, it's your call. 12 people can make a convincing case, or even one. But maybe for one song, it's just gotta be that specific song, even if everyone else says "why did you pick that?"
This horribly dissonant and messed up tune? Yeah, it fits a specific scene. You all hate it. Too. Bad.
Last example:
Heartwarming music during an onscreen suicide. No break at all, the music continues playing.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SoundtrackDissonance
Man, this talk about battle themes reminds me of one game I was making way back where I let the player pick between 5 battle themes. Problem was, they were all pretty bad ones (bar one. Fucking Shred, god I love that midi. Pity I could never find a reworked mp3 version of it because it would feature heavily in all my games. I ain't even joking. Loops well and is sufficiently upbeat with enough changes to the general melody to remain interesting.)
Shred~<3
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
That's pretty great. Here, have a highly configurable midi to MP3 converter.
grindalf
3556
It partly depends upon what you are making.
If you are going commercial then you need to listen to what testers say quite a lot(you cant please everybody all the time, so if a majority likes something it could probably stay) but if you are making a game because you want to make YOUR dream game then why change it to fit other peoples dream game?
This is the dilemma I have with the Grimoire of worlds. It is my idea of my perfect game but it is also going to be commercial so I have decided that I will make it how I want(its my dream game after all) If I lose sales because of that then so be it. I have accepted that possibility.
If you are going commercial then you need to listen to what testers say quite a lot(you cant please everybody all the time, so if a majority likes something it could probably stay) but if you are making a game because you want to make YOUR dream game then why change it to fit other peoples dream game?
This is the dilemma I have with the Grimoire of worlds. It is my idea of my perfect game but it is also going to be commercial so I have decided that I will make it how I want(its my dream game after all) If I lose sales because of that then so be it. I have accepted that possibility.
Bubblegum Wishes was published by a small publisher, but I hear you. It's a crazy business.
I'm very timid about comics, though a degree less so, because fans tend to be more lenient when it comes to what they like.
Edit: Then again, there's a 'professional art collector' at my work, who is never shy to rate me against guys like Jack Kirby and Ditko era dudes.
(Admittedly, he is frank in his judgments which gives me very raw feedback about mistakes that are candidly invaluable. Though his methods are crude and bordering on vulgar.)
I'm very timid about comics, though a degree less so, because fans tend to be more lenient when it comes to what they like.
Edit: Then again, there's a 'professional art collector' at my work, who is never shy to rate me against guys like Jack Kirby and Ditko era dudes.
(Admittedly, he is frank in his judgments which gives me very raw feedback about mistakes that are candidly invaluable. Though his methods are crude and bordering on vulgar.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Wait... the comic book nerd from the Simpsons thinks he qualifies as a professional art collector?
suzy_cheesedreams
1480
Hmmm... I chose "NEVER". Unless someone had a legitimate complaint about something in my stuff that was like insensitive or something, I wouldn't change anything based on how many people complained. To some extent I think you have to trust your own judgement. Also because it is a hobby and not something you expect to get money from, you should feel free to do whatever you want.
But also like Liberty's example with the slowed down RTP battle music, sometimes people just make awful decisions that you can't really comprehend.
Also I bet there ARE over-zealous George Lucas fans who think he should be bludgeoned to death for what he is doing to his own mythos. There are extremist freaks in every subculture.
But also like Liberty's example with the slowed down RTP battle music, sometimes people just make awful decisions that you can't really comprehend.
Also I bet there ARE over-zealous George Lucas fans who think he should be bludgeoned to death for what he is doing to his own mythos. There are extremist freaks in every subculture.
author=Red_Nova
Let me use an RPG Maker game for a new example (that I hope will be slightly more on topic than the last few paragraphs). You remember Essence Enforcer, yes? Well, the last boss music, I feel, is a great example of making design decisions that allow for personal taste.
Hilariously, I don't even listen to that genre. Most of my playlists are closer to light 80' metal or classical. Or Guilty Gear.
The songs that I put in games rarely align with what I'd listen to on a normal day.
edit: I'll drop two observations.
1) No matter what, your vision will always be compromised. You cannot beam your game directly to your players' brains. The limitations of your chosen medium are "compromising your vision" from the outset. But that's really just another way of admitting that your vision is always flawed from the beginning, and requires development--and input--in order to achieve its final form.
2) You can make your game however you please, but your players can always play something else. If your game doesn't meet any players' needs, you have will no players. (This means, "add an Options menu" in addition to its larger ramifications.)
Housekeeping
3571
I picked never, which probably isn't fair; like LockeZ said, the right comment will impact my decisions. But, I still went with never because I compose my own music, and I've been playing guitar religiously for about twelve years now. I trust my musical taste more than others because my decisions are being informed by years of experience. Same with writing.
That said, if anyone has any art or game design tips, I'm way more likely to consider them.
That said, if anyone has any art or game design tips, I'm way more likely to consider them.
Also I bet there ARE over-zealous George Lucas fans who think he should be bludgeoned to death for what he is doing to his own mythos.
I am pretty sure once you want to lynch someone, you no longer qualify as a fan of theirs, lol.
The songs that I put in games rarely align with what I'd listen to on a normal day.
Yeah, this is certainly true of me as well. (A startling admission: unlike basically all of y'all, I literally NEVER listen to any videogame OSTs for fun, ever.) Also, man, what I listen to on a normal day is crazy eclectic and can vary wildly.
But on the rare occasion when there's actual overlap between music I want to put in a game and music I listen to all the time? I kind of cherish that.
1) No matter what, your vision will always be compromised. You cannot beam your game directly to your players' brains. The limitations of your chosen medium are "compromising your vision" from the outset. But that's really just another way of admitting that your vision is always flawed from the beginning, and requires development--and input--in order to achieve its final form.
Yeah. The text itself is always the first interlocutor and barrier of resistance between authorial intent and audience.
But, I still went with never because I compose my own music, and I've been playing guitar religiously for about twelve years now.
I know you probably didn't mean it this way, but I am choosing to take this fully literally.
I trust my musical taste more than others because my decisions are being informed by years of experience. Same with writing.
Hmm. That's an interesting statement. Honestly I feel the same way about writing--my response when my writing has been questioned by someone who is not a professional writer has tended to be a scowl and a grumpy condescending remark. -- and I have taken a ton of flack for it over the years.
But I am not sure that you can apply the same logic to musical taste, honestly. It is very hard to say any one person's musical taste is better than any other's, no matter how long they've been a musician or been immersed in music, because musical taste is so subjective. Sure, there are some musical entities that most musicians will agree are "bad", but those are definitely in the minority.
If you look at a guy who's spent 30 years playing metal and a guy who's spent 30 years playing folk and bluegrass, they're going to have wildly different musical tastes and there's no real objective measure of who's better.
Housekeeping
3571
author=MaxMcGee
If you look at a guy who's spent 30 years playing metal and a guy who's spent 30 years playing folk and bluegrass, they're going to have wildly different musical tastes and there's no real objective measure of who's better.
You could say the same thing about literary writers and genre writers: different backgrounds, different standards, different likes and dislikes. As long as they've put a lot of thought into their writing, though, they'll be able to appreciate each other's stuff even if it isn't their cup of tea.
Even if I don't like a musical style, I've got a sharp enough ear to tell if the music fits, if it's being informed by what historically came before it, and if it's well-constructed. There's a lot more informing my musical decisions than, "I like metal so I'm going to put metal in it." That's where experience comes in (and close listening to a large range of music).
Welp! Just to repeat what everyone has been saying: When it comes to criticism, I don't care about a particular number of people that complains about something, because it's not like creating stuff it's a democracy. But I do place more importance on people who seem to know what they're talking about, even if it's just one person; and then I weight that out against what I know...
For example, if someone criticizes a graphic aspect of my game -an area in which I know a thing or two- I'll be more inclined to defend my position. But if someone comes to me talking about arpeggios and such, I'm more likely to listen to that person because my entire musical knowledge can be summarized with whether I "like" a tune or not. So, yeah, sometimes reason > tastes.
It's easy to talk about things like music, though, because I don't think anyone really has anything against music genres. But humor for example, it's a more risqué topic, that ultimately comes down to tastes as well. Take Slap-stick comedy. You don't see much of that stuff nowadays anymore. Some consider it to be childish, or violent, etc. But at the end of the day everything is fair game.
It also depends of what kind of content is being created, I suppose. If it's something I want it to be taken seriously and reach the most people as possible, then I'll be more inclined to compromise my artistic vision to a certain degree. But if for instance, I want to create something a bit more nichey and tongue-in-check, then obviously some people are not going to like that, but I'd do it anyways.
For example, if someone criticizes a graphic aspect of my game -an area in which I know a thing or two- I'll be more inclined to defend my position. But if someone comes to me talking about arpeggios and such, I'm more likely to listen to that person because my entire musical knowledge can be summarized with whether I "like" a tune or not. So, yeah, sometimes reason > tastes.
It's easy to talk about things like music, though, because I don't think anyone really has anything against music genres. But humor for example, it's a more risqué topic, that ultimately comes down to tastes as well. Take Slap-stick comedy. You don't see much of that stuff nowadays anymore. Some consider it to be childish, or violent, etc. But at the end of the day everything is fair game.
It also depends of what kind of content is being created, I suppose. If it's something I want it to be taken seriously and reach the most people as possible, then I'll be more inclined to compromise my artistic vision to a certain degree. But if for instance, I want to create something a bit more nichey and tongue-in-check, then obviously some people are not going to like that, but I'd do it anyways.
UPRC
5516
At least what feels like 50% of those who have played the game. If ten people play a demo and three people don't like the music, I may not do anything. If five or six people don't, then I will step back and think things over a little.
In the case of my completed game (Blackmoon Prophecy), it's too difficult to measure how many people have played it. In that game's instance, I simply watched for recurring complaints. If at least half of those giving feedback reported not liking something (ie. music) then I would change it.
If anyone says they'd change it based on the opinion of ONE person, that person needs to remember that you cannot please everyone. I usually disregard complaints that only come from single people. It might sound dickish, but it weeds out the complaints from people who simply don't like something because it's not their cup of tea.
In the case of my completed game (Blackmoon Prophecy), it's too difficult to measure how many people have played it. In that game's instance, I simply watched for recurring complaints. If at least half of those giving feedback reported not liking something (ie. music) then I would change it.
If anyone says they'd change it based on the opinion of ONE person, that person needs to remember that you cannot please everyone. I usually disregard complaints that only come from single people. It might sound dickish, but it weeds out the complaints from people who simply don't like something because it's not their cup of tea.
