THEMES AND MESSAGES

I stopped being a fan of Rowling midway through high school, and I've never read any King (although I am a fan of a few of the film adaptations of his work - Christine, Carrie, etc.).

Harry Potter made so little of an impact on my writing, despite the fact that I was a fan as a child, that instead if I sense some sort of "wizardy" name has slipped into my stuff I exterminate it quickly. I very consciously do not want to draw any inspiration from Harry Potter. Ugh.

FF7 on the other hand... I personally disagree that the story is objectively bad. Like Max McGee I would say that it is not that great either, but I too find the central story elements compelling, and as I said earlier in this thread the romance plot between Aerith and Zack/Cloud definitely resonated with me as a kid, and still does now.

I think a hugely influential dimension of game making is music, and it is also an important, if not vital, part of carrying across a theme or message to the audience (in this particular medium obviously).

I really, really hate that (optional) scene in Bioshock Infinite where Booker plays the guitar and Elizabeth sings, but that's just because I sincerely dislike that kind of revived Americana acoustic guitar pop-folk/blues music genre that is really popular right now. In my first playthrough, also didn't like it because I felt that it was self-righteous. What I didn't know was that the story and my perception of it were about to change drastically, so afterwards I thought it was a clever thing to do - it illustrated Elizabeth's naïve optimism in such a sugary way that the following chapters of the game were quite jarring.

Also, on delivery of a message/failure thereof:
Depression Quest, though it has been lauded as a great game and all that, really failed to deliver any meaningful message to me, and it also failed on the other end in that it wasn't even fun. It functioned much more like a low-rent tool for diagnosis than an actual game - which is perfectly acceptable - but I think there are so many more imaginative and immersive ways to incorporate themes like mental illness into a game, that someone who has dealt with that stuff might read in the subtext anyway. It reminded me actually of something schoolkids would be invited to play to gauge if they were experiencing some sadness/if they noticed that in their friends or family, etc. Which again is fine, but I think all the hype around the game was unfounded, as I thought it was pretty crappy.

FF 7's dialogue could use a good combing through, but I thought Cloud and Sephiroth's struggles with identity were handled well and the save-the-planet aspect was presented in a world far enough removed from ours with characters who were down-to-earth enough to not come off as heavy-handed. Some of the characters could have used more consistent development (like Red), but the cast was pretty memorable. I think it's still worthy of its acclaim.

Cait Sith can go to hell, though.

My favorite PS 2 game is Kingdom Hearts. I have played it over ten times and it's certainly not due to its shallow messages. So, I guess I'm one of those who vastly values fun over anything else. In fact, if an RM game focuses more on theme and/or message than fun and I realize that, it means I won't play the game.

But then, I have noticed I respond better to intellectual messages than emotional ones. I enjoy it far more when the heroes figures out something clever or outsmart the villain than when they start talking about something supposedly deep. JRPGs focus on emotional stimuli however. Also, it doesn't help that half the time an RPG has a message, it's crap.

That said, while I consider fun the main aspect, that doesn't mean the theme of the game can't serve as spice. The theme of the game and it's messages can enhance the enjoyment I derive from the game. It can also decrease the fun I derive from the game if done poorly. So, here's my advice, this coming from someone who considers theme and message secondary:

Realize that it's a one way communication and the risks it brings. If you and me are discussing something, we can give each other feedback. Imagine you say something I don't agree with and I make an argument against what you said. You now have the option to make a counterargument against my argument if you still think what you originally said is right. However, this doesn't work in a game. If your game gives me a message and I disagree, this is pretty much it. I will form a counterargument in my head and your game will continue to make a point that, as far as I'm concerned, has been refuted. When delivering a message, consider how likely the player is to disagree and how heavily the game hinges on said message.

Make sure your game actually supports whatever message you give. There's one game I know which at one point let you choose between pursuing your own goals or first helping a party member out. The former choice leads to a catastrophic ending while the second one leads to a non catastrophic one (none of them is really good). Now, what changes the ending is that if you choose to help earlier, the main character will later upon confronting the last boss listen to him and he reveals his plan. This makes it possible to stop said plan after killing him. However, if you choose the more selfish option earlier, the main character will instead go all "nope, don't care about hearing you out" and the plan then comes to fruition as it doesn't require the villain to be alive anymore.

The game then makes a spiel about how it's not cool to abandon your friends or whatever. It tries to attribute the failure to everything except the main character not giving the villain a chance to be a complete idiot. Worse, not giving the villain time to talk would realistically be the strategical correct since they are in his place and there could at any time emerge more enemies.

This is also where I think the friendship/hope/whatever messages fail. I wouldn't mind a "friendship allowed us to succeed" message if friendship actually was a major contributing factor.

A theme is easily ruined by negative behavior. If a character has family problems and due to them acts obnoxious, chance is I'm thinking about the obnoxious behavior and not the family problems. The family problems ends up being a reminder of the obnoxious behavior.

Finally, don't try force a message into your game. You should not leave a message because you think your game has to state something deep and thought provoking. If you do that, your message is almost guaranteed to be crap.

man, some things I make purely for fun factor, some things I make to be obnoxiously moralistic. When I play things for myself, all I ask is that they're engaging. I don't get too fussed about fun, I just want something that can hold my attention.

I don't think I've played any games that really "spoke" to me or left a strong impression on my views. Hella games have influenced me and my visual style/approach to making things, and I know when I was younger I would have talked a big game about like, "the futility of life in a cold, uncaring world as espoused by Drakengard", or "how Shadow of the Colossus is a meaningful dialogue on loneliness", but ehhh I'm not feeling it these days. There's a small handful of books and movies I can point to and say "they wrote in a message that ~Made Me Think~", but I am noticing that the more non-fiction media I read/watch, the less I care about fictional things.

I get excited about the potential of a lot of stories, especially game ones, but the closest I can think of off the top of my head wrt games that have gotten me to personally reflect is like... Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne had some philosophical stuff I chewed on, but ultimately it was like "well everyone committed some kind of atrocity and the neutral path is boring, fuck it lucifer clearly had the right idea". Killer7 did raise some interesting questions about "what is a nation", what with the struggles of the Japanese diaspora, but it was buried under, y'know, being a suda game.

I'm also not really on board with the idea that if you so much as TRY to convey some kind of message you're doomed to the obnoxiously moralistic, propaganda route. I mean really if you wanna put some kind of message in yr stuff, cool, just...think about it, and think about it thoroughly. My views are more in line with Crystalgate's there -- it's a one-way communication street (tho I would argue the interactive potential of games has some wiggle room for the player to sass back) and a lot of things support their messages with flimsy toothpicks that are easily contradicted by gameplay or the writing itself.

I don't exactly have much to say about themes, it really does depend on what you mean by theme. Themes sure are a thing. They are in things.

I really hate the trend, both "indie" and "mainstream" of shooter with a Message stapled to it or platformer with a Message stapled to it. by stapled i mean "just kind of tacked onto a standard gameplay model b/c people associate ~messages~ with ~artistic depth~". really felt Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us doing this. It's like oscar bait for games.

Edit: I also agree with LockeZ in that players have their own messages at least in the sense of "people are going to bring their own messages and shit to the table". I mean there's entire fields built around analysis and so much of that does involve "I know damn well what the author intended and I am arguing that what they produced can be interpreted in X fashion supported by Y evidence". Tho determining intent is a sticky subject all on its own. I think less so if you apply that in the context of like, rmn, or the small circle of indie games in general where you can just ASK someone "so what were you trying to do here."

also I rarely waste my time doing critical analysis of games

author=NeverSilent

author=Link_2112
My purpose of making games has never been to convey a message. I focus on gameplay, visuals, sound. The technical aspects. I usually put something together, debug it forever, make a few maps with it, and then stop :/ I have yet to get to the point where I insert a story.

No offense, but maybe that's the problem? How do you want to be able to express yourself if you have nothing to say?
Of course, making cool technical stuff can be fulfilling and enjoyable for your players, too. But I imagine it must be quite difficult to stay motivated after the initial creative ecstasy has passed if your work does not feel relevant and meaningful, not even to yourself.

I don't feel like I have a problem. I don't stop because of any particular reason. That's just how it's worked out so far. My motivation is based on many things, none of which are the eventual story parts. Over the years I've learned to make the technical stuff with the foresight of eventually plugging in the story stuff. So I would image that it would be quite simple to add story and a message to one of my completed "game engines". I have a short attention span and move on to new things very quickly.

But I also don't think that a game has to have a strong story and message to be good. A lot of people put weight on that when, say, reviewing a game, but not me. Mario doesn't have much of a plot but top notch gameplay fun, so I could rate it high.

I don't read books or watch many movies and I grew up with NES games, so that probably has something to do with my views. Gameplay > Story.

I'll probably team up with a good storyteller rather than try and do it myself. I don't have the brain for it. Does not compute.

And pentagonb-word said a bunch of stuff I agree with.

author=Link_2112
I don't feel like I have a problem.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude before. I didn't mean to imply you have a problem, I meant to say maybe you could gain a lot from trying to look at it from a different perspective for once.
I also agree that a good game doesn't absolutely need a deep story or message, but it's one of multiple apects that can potentially make a game better. And for me, that particular aspect bears a lot of importance.

author=Link_2112
I don't read books or watch many movies and I grew up with NES games, so that probably has something to do with my views. Gameplay > Story.

And while I don't entirely agree with that, it's a legitimate opinion. Pretending gameplay is unimportant when making a game will alienate many players, and for good reasons. Still, since you said yourself you aren't much of a "story person" and don't read many books etc., I believe you would also personally benefit from attempting to throw off those limits and broaden your view. Just my personal opinion, though, nothing more.

Depends on what I'm going for and what my mood is.

I think I'll just separate it into two sections since I feel this subject requires two viewpoints on my end.

If I want to just make a game that's about the player having fun, fucking around and having a few laughs:

-For inspiration, I'd just play some games like God Hand and Prototype, which basically revolve around, respectively, beating the crap out of people and causing untold amounts of property destruction without an extremely complex plot. I don't want to beat my player-base over the head with a message, I just want them to sit back, let loose and have a blast.

-When in the process, I try to make sure that the story has its share of laughs and serious moments, but nothing trying to be more than it is. I focus heavily on the gameplay. I don't focus on any sort of theme; it becomes more of a pseudo-theme where my game is all "dude, just chill and have fun with this".

If I want to just make a game that has the player think and take in the plot:

-For inspiration, I'd play something like Spec Ops: The Line. It's a divisive game but it definitely causes thoughtful conversation to ensue and the plot is quite deep when looked at a certain way. When I'm in a... well, let's just say "super think-y" type of mood, I go to games that really exercise my intellect.

-When in the process, I try to think of a message that's portrayed well and is discernible. I make sure it's conveyed thoroughly enough through the game, but I try to have some sort of subtlety as well; I don't want to beat what I'm saying over the head of the player and be all obnoxious and pretentious about it, but I still wanna make sure it's there. I can be either humorous about it and just go about it through satire (that is, making fun of the issue), or I just can just have the issue come into the plot and have the characters react to it. I tend to go for the latter, since I tend to feel as if pointing fingers at whatever the problem is does nothing to solve it and just makes me come off like a snob, especially when the intent is to seriously address it. I still try to put in gameplay to an equal degree so it's still a game and not just some lecture, of course.

I'm sure it sounds like shit if you gloss over nearly every detail.

I didn't play Final Fantasy VI until around when the PS 2 was released at which point I downloaded its ROM. I ended up liking it, despite being well in my twenties, which hardly qualifies as growing up with it. I have also seen a lot of examples of both real life people and people I only know trough the Internet playing old games, that are considered not having aged well, for the first time, and still liking them.

If someone seems unable to admit any flaws in its beloved game, then it's most likely nostalgia goggles (or other goggles such as fanboy goggles) at work. However, you should never assume someone is watching trough nostalgia goggles for merely liking something.