AMERICANA DAWN

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author=Link_2112
author=JosephSeraph
sorry dude i can get very high quality stuff from china for very reasonable prices too. there's alibaba, aliexpress, etc.
Everything I've ordered from that site was garbage. Sure it's cheap, but it doesn't work or I get the wrong item. In my experience. No more of that. Plus I'm not too keen on supporting china's economy.

Well... I was not exactly suggesting this to be done, you know. But my mom bought some pretty sweet stuff there at some pretty sweet prices. But then again, the sweat of slave work is the sweetener in this case...

...And it's not much different when it comes to game art labor.

People don't realize it, though. They think we were just born with a gift.

We are never valued for the bloody decades of hardwork, of practicing 4+ hours a day everyday for 10+ years. People think we simply know it and pay less of an hourly rate than what a McDonalds cashier gets. (not that there's anything wrong with being a McDonalds cashier. But you know, you don't have to study for over a decade.)

But it's normal. People don't realize what they are doing. Be it people that think that they're "smart" and can simply do artists a "favor" by paying them, or be it stupid artists (like me in the past) who are desperate, think their work is shit, and accept the lowest penny thrown at them.
That's true for a lot of things. People don't know about things they don't know about. I can understand your frustration as an artist but you can't expect everyone to know that. Adding anger to it probably isn't the best way to educate people. You raise some great points, though.
DE
*click to edit*
1313
Americana Dawn Syndrome.
I don't know if it's a matter of people underappreciating artists as much as it's an issue of economics.

1) There are a LOT of artists in the world, and a lot of them are very good.
2) The rpg maker community is filled with broke losers (myself included).

So, artists have to take what they can because there's no meat on the bone and there are lots of other artists picking at it. It's not fair, but that's just reality. I considered doing music commissions briefly before I looked at other peoples' prices. Trying to compete in that market is a lose-lose.
Max McGee
with sorrow down past the fence
9219
Pay a fair price for your commissions or make due with what's already out there.

There are some nonfacts that wouldbe freelance artists really need to unlearn. Probably the most important thing to understand is that when you do work-for-hire as an independent contractor for a company that is NOT a private commission and cannot be treated remotely the same.

But this is definitely OT.

author=Liberty
author=Max McGee
Thiamor:

Here is the thing...professional covers a very wide range of artists and a wide range of prices. You can find extremely gifted artists that will work very cheap, and they may well even be better than more expensive artists who can charge more because they are more well known.
They should not. The reason they are cheap is because people take advantage of them or constantly do the 'oh, but x was cheaper' or the bullshit line "you'll get exposure". Quite frankly, if their work is good you should pay them well. FFS, sorry, but this is something I feel pretty strongly about - people getting paid fairly for their work and not getting ripped off just because they're artists. It's ridiculous and people who do it should feel bad.

You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. YOU SHOULD FUCKING FEEL BAD.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is that you assume what my company pays is exploitative simply because I described it as "very cheap" relative to asking for 70 goddamn fucking grand just to finish a stupid SNES/PS1 Era JRPG clone which people do in RPG Maker year after year for a $0 budget?

The dozens of artists we have helped to earn a living wage for their passion over the years of our operation by providing them with paying work when others wouldn't because they weren't as well known as the artists getting paying work who were charging ten to a hundred times more...GOD fucking forbid a company should have a budget and should pay out accordingly to their budget and get the best quality work for their money rather than ignore their budget and structure their freelancer pricing schedule based on some abstract ABSOLUTE concept of how 'good' art is...ffs...I can't even...LEARN HOW THE WORLD WORKS before you start holier-than-thou soapbox moralizing about business ethics from the total blind ignorance of a hobbyist's perspective.

I am done with this thread.
author=Liberty
author=Max McGee
Thiamor:

Here is the thing...professional covers a very wide range of artists and a wide range of prices. You can find extremely gifted artists that will work very cheap, and they may well even be better than more expensive artists who can charge more because they are more well known.
They should not. The reason they are cheap is because people take advantage of them or constantly do the 'oh, but x was cheaper' or the bullshit line "you'll get exposure". Quite frankly, if their work is good you should pay them well. FFS, sorry, but this is something I feel pretty strongly about - people getting paid fairly for their work and not getting ripped off just because they're artists. It's ridiculous and people who do it should feel bad.

Hi! I don't post around here often but I do lurk, and I've been following this discussion. I'm the art director for Max's company, and I wanted to clear something up.

As an artist/illustrator myownself, I take it as a point of pride to always deal fairly with the artists who choose to work with us. The artists we work with tend to be very happy to work with us again, and most of them come back to work on projects with us over and over again.

We are not a big company, and the TTRPG industry - especially little indie guys - are not known nor expected to have big money to throw around. Basically, what I do is up front I let a community of artists know, hey, this is what we are able to pay per piece, you'll get a contract, paid directly on completion, and get credited. Those who find the terms acceptable contact me, and we work things out (like if someone says, this is a bit more complex, etc., we can fiddle with the price a bit). No one comes in to working with us blind, they know how much money we can pay them before they begin work and sign a contract.

I'm also pretty conscious of not letting revisions drag out, and being specific upfront about the image design, so that no one is getting less for more work. Generally, we hit 0-3 small revisions, so no one is feeling used.

Like I said, the artists we've worked with have always gone away happy, paid on time, and more than happy to work with us again and recommend us to their friends for our fair business practices. :/

EDIT: Sorry this was so off topic. I just felt hurt by this allegation, because I think I'm a pretty good person, so yeah.

More on topic: Kickstarters are more successful when the asking is low, because they tend to go over the asking when they're funded. I feel like Americana Dawn could have gone a different crowdfunding route, like indiegogo, and kept whatever they pledged so that they could at least make the game, even if it wasn't at the level they wanted to get it to. Or a patreon, so that funding could be ongoing.
which people do in RPG Maker year after year for a $0 budget?

Not of the quality that this game is showing off.
author=Max McGee
There are some nonfacts that wouldbe freelance artists really need to unlearn. Probably the most important thing to understand is that when you do work-for-hire as an independent contractor for a company that is NOT a private commission and cannot be treated remotely the same.

But this is definitely OT.

oh no i used the wrong word to describe THE THING because i am unfamiliar with the language used in THE BIZ since i am neither a freelance artist nor a would-be freelance artist.

But hey, surprise surprise: I still think someone should get a fair wage for the work they do. The fact is there are artists out there who do this to make a living, and offering them peanuts for a fucktonne of work is bullshit. Like, sure, I don't do freelance, but I sure as hell am familiar with the amount of graphical labour there is for making a game, seeing as how I am currently doing that for myself.

Again: you don't like someone's prices? Can't afford someone's rates? Then do the art yourself or buy licences to what's already out there (which, Max, you have evidently done). The only reason to try and haggle down a freelance worker's prices is to bully them into giving you a discount, since hey, it's really not your place to choose how much someone is gonna work for.

Obviously there are going to be people who are willing to work for less! I mean, you gotta start somewhere, right? And on top of that, there are people who might take up projects that personally interest them, and are thus willing to take a cut in pay because of that. There are people willing to work for less because they get to work for people they like. There are people willing to work for less for any multitude of reasons, and if you stumble across them, great! Just don't expect every other artist ever to match those prices.

But anyway, you're right, this is off topic. Since you set a good example of walking away from this discussion, I'll follow you in that and also exit this conversation gracefully. *hops on the back of a unicorn and gallops away into the sunset*
author=JosephSeraph
But it's normal. People don't realize what they are doing. Be it people that think that they're "smart" and can simply do artists a "favor" by paying them, or be it stupid artists (like me in the past) who are desperate, think their work is shit, and accept the lowest penny thrown at them.


uh huh

what if your work *is* shit. effort doesnt justify pretentious crayon scribbles

it bothers me when legit artists get exploited but when tumblr hacks latch on and apply that same injustice to themselves i reach for my bottle
Thiamor
I assure you I'm no where NEAR as STUPID as one might think.
63
author=Max McGee
Pay a fair price for your commissions or make due with what's already out there.
There are some nonfacts that wouldbe freelance artists really need to unlearn. Probably the most important thing to understand is that when you do work-for-hire as an independent contractor for a company that is NOT a private commission and cannot be treated remotely the same.

But this is definitely OT.

author=Liberty
author=Max McGee
Thiamor:

Here is the thing...professional covers a very wide range of artists and a wide range of prices. You can find extremely gifted artists that will work very cheap, and they may well even be better than more expensive artists who can charge more because they are more well known.
They should not. The reason they are cheap is because people take advantage of them or constantly do the 'oh, but x was cheaper' or the bullshit line "you'll get exposure". Quite frankly, if their work is good you should pay them well. FFS, sorry, but this is something I feel pretty strongly about - people getting paid fairly for their work and not getting ripped off just because they're artists. It's ridiculous and people who do it should feel bad.


You have no fucking idea what you are talking about. YOU SHOULD FUCKING FEEL BAD.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is that you assume what my company pays is exploitative simply because I described it as "very cheap" relative to asking for 70 goddamn fucking grand just to finish a stupid SNES/PS1 Era JRPG clone which people do in RPG Maker year after year for a $0 budget?

The dozens of artists we have helped to earn a living wage for their passion over the years of our operation by providing them with paying work when others wouldn't because they weren't as well known as the artists getting paying work who were charging ten to a hundred times more...GOD fucking forbid a company should have a budget and should pay out accordingly to their budget and get the best quality work for their money rather than ignore their budget and structure their freelancer pricing schedule based on some abstract ABSOLUTE concept of how 'good' art is...ffs...I can't even...LEARN HOW THE WORLD WORKS before you start holier-than-thou soapbox moralizing about business ethics from the total blind ignorance of a hobbyist's perspective.

I am done with this thread.


What your company does is irrelevant and it's like you're trying to beat a dead horse, here.

The fact is, if you want guaranteed quality work, you give out what is needed. It's good and all that you help artists, but that is far from what this whole argument was started on. My main point is that it is much easier to pay the high price than prancing around hoping to find good deals, no matter if there are good deals to be made.

On the internet, it is much easier to find the higher priced, proven high quality, experienced artists. For example if you Google commission work for artists, you're going to get the links to those popular, proven to work artists.

What you may do to help other artists, and doing it cheaper has nothing to do with my point that seemed to have started this argument with you all.
This is stunning!
I thought this was already successful on Kickstarter?
In fact, I'm sure I backed it!

So, two projects for the same game? First one raised the cash successfully....
And now you're asking for us to fund the game....again....
Both from the same location, but the projects use different names.....
I don't trust this.


LouisCyphre
can't make a bad game if you don't finish any games
4523
They're the same project, but the game has grown vastly in scope. I mean, look at the two screenshot thumbnails and think it through.
author=LouisCyphre
They're the same project, but the game has grown vastly in scope. I mean, look at the two screenshot thumbnails and think it through.


yeah, definitely, the game looks stunning. But at this point, after backing it already. I won't be backing again.

All you have to do is look at the % backed this time, with 69 hours to go.
I find it hard to understand why they asked so low initially, I thought you had to finish a project on Kickstarter before asking for more money, especially for the same thing.
They are fairly upfornt about the fact that it is a new backing. And they are also saying that if you backed once you don't need to back again to get the game when it comes out.

Of course it'll never actually come out. This game has been in production for at least five years or so. :)
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7419
author=DanPlanetTerra


Why'd they use two different accounts to get backing for the same project (that is, unless Kickstarter has rules against such things which should raise eyebrows, anyway)?
author=Sailerius
If the game failed to get finished after being more than fully funded once, is it really likely it's going to be finished after being fully funded a second time?


You mean the third time. YDS also did a crowdfund campaign via the now defunct 8bitfunding about a year prior to her Kickstarter.
Sailerius
did someone say angels
3304
author=Corfaisus
author=DanPlanetTerra
Why'd they use two different accounts to get backing for the same project (that is, unless Kickstarter has rules against such things which should raise eyebrows, anyway)?

So that when you click on YDS's profile from the new one, you wouldn't see that there was a previous Kickstarter for the same game.
DE
*click to edit*
1313
author=Jude
You mean the third time. YDS also did a crowdfund campaign via the now defunct 8bitfunding about a year prior to her Kickstarter.


You're right. This makes her third crowdfunding campaign, two of which had been successful, aimed to fund a single game, and nothing to show for it so far. No game, no demo, not even a shred of gameplay. WTF.

A funny quote reg. the 8 bit raiser:

The developers of Americana Dawn: The Long Goodbye are aiming for a demo release this December, with the full game to be complete by May 2012.
Great way to get some money for the christmas presents!
Maybe I should do one of these every year too.
If the project doesn't get fully funded, you don't get any money.