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COULD HAVING ALL HP/MP GROWTH TIED TO CONSUMABLE ITEMS WORK?
Posts
unity
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CloseI was considering a system for a future game where leveling up does not increase HP and MP (but increases the other stats), and all HP and MP growth is bestowed by consumable items you find on your quest. I'm trying to decide if this is a feasible idea.
First off, when collecting these, should I have any HP/MP increasing item be allowed to be used on any character (out of probably four playable characters?) This would completely change the battle dynamics, but abilities and combat could be somewhat built around this idea.
On the other hand, will players give these items out to the party all over the board, or will they do something like giving the main character all the HP/MP powerups and make the main character incredible and leave the rest of the party pathetic? I could mitigate this by making four separate sets of items for each character, but would I want to? Allowing that kind of mayhem could have its own interesting effects.
Any thoughts?
First off, when collecting these, should I have any HP/MP increasing item be allowed to be used on any character (out of probably four playable characters?) This would completely change the battle dynamics, but abilities and combat could be somewhat built around this idea.
On the other hand, will players give these items out to the party all over the board, or will they do something like giving the main character all the HP/MP powerups and make the main character incredible and leave the rest of the party pathetic? I could mitigate this by making four separate sets of items for each character, but would I want to? Allowing that kind of mayhem could have its own interesting effects.
Any thoughts?
Housekeeping
3571
If you're making them character-specific, then you might as well just automatically increase the characters' stats upon fulfilling whatever the requirement is that you've set up--maybe finding some kind of magic stone or something. If you turn this into a useable item, you're just adding an unnecessary step to the process.
If you're not making them character-specific, then, yeah, the problem is that players can just pack it all on one character. When I play an rpg, I'm afraid that I'll gain or lose characters, so I dump all stat-boosting items on the main protagonist since they're the sure bet. I'd want some assurance going into the game that my party's going to be consistent. If it's just HP/MP, it seems like it wouldn't feel very fulfilling in terms of stat management. I think I'd want something more complex so that mastering the system felt more like smart planning.
If you're not making them character-specific, then, yeah, the problem is that players can just pack it all on one character. When I play an rpg, I'm afraid that I'll gain or lose characters, so I dump all stat-boosting items on the main protagonist since they're the sure bet. I'd want some assurance going into the game that my party's going to be consistent. If it's just HP/MP, it seems like it wouldn't feel very fulfilling in terms of stat management. I think I'd want something more complex so that mastering the system felt more like smart planning.
author=Housekeeping
If you're making them character-specific, then you might as well just automatically increase the characters' stats upon fulfilling whatever the requirement is that you've set up--maybe finding some kind of magic stone or something. If you turn this into a useable item, you're just adding an unnecessary step to the process.
If you're not making them character-specific, then, yeah, the problem is that players can just pack it all on one character. When I play an rpg, I'm afraid that I'll gain or lose characters, so I dump all stat-boosting items on the main protagonist since they're the sure bet. I'd want some assurance going into the game that my party's going to be consistent. If it's just HP/MP, it seems like it wouldn't feel very fulfilling in terms of stat management. I think I'd want something more complex so that mastering the system felt more like smart planning.
Yeah, good points. Also, with stat management, if you chose wrong, you'd be stuck with characters that have way too little HP or MP.
The objects that instantly increase the stats for a certain character may be the way to go.
author=unity
The objects that instantly increase the stats for a certain character may be the way to go.
What happens when the player misses them, though?
Kiana
50
You could also consider a stat cap or restriction, so that while a player can give one character the lion's share of stat boosters, they have to spread them around a little. It could help mitigate the risk of the party becoming The Hero and Those Three Redshirts.
And if the stat boosts are only found, then I'm with Housekeeping on just adding the stats immediately.
Halloween Bash seems kind of similar, as I recall. Stat boosts are hidden around maps. When you find one, it prompts you to select a character to have their stats improved. Though there's an upper limit, so once a character is maxed out, a player can't select them anymore.
And if the stat boosts are only found, then I'm with Housekeeping on just adding the stats immediately.
Halloween Bash seems kind of similar, as I recall. Stat boosts are hidden around maps. When you find one, it prompts you to select a character to have their stats improved. Though there's an upper limit, so once a character is maxed out, a player can't select them anymore.
Why do you want them to be consumable items? Is there a tradeoff between immediately drinking a HP+1 potion or later? Can you buy or sell them? If you can, why would you sell them? Is money that short/valuable?
As for a solution to packing one member you can add a logarithmic curve to what you get out of a stat boosting item. Final Fantasy Legends had that where the HP boosting items would hit a cap where their effects would drop to only giving +1 MaxHP after a certain MaxHP (then screwed up the math that buying the worst MaxHP items was more economic than buying the best). You could add something similar so that trying to feed one member too much has diminishing returns to where you aren't gaining effective HP anymore. You could also use attacks that do damage proportional to a character's MaxHP like the demi spells in FF which are harder to heal from if your character has high MaxHP, but it isn't a good overall solution.
As for a solution to packing one member you can add a logarithmic curve to what you get out of a stat boosting item. Final Fantasy Legends had that where the HP boosting items would hit a cap where their effects would drop to only giving +1 MaxHP after a certain MaxHP (then screwed up the math that buying the worst MaxHP items was more economic than buying the best). You could add something similar so that trying to feed one member too much has diminishing returns to where you aren't gaining effective HP anymore. You could also use attacks that do damage proportional to a character's MaxHP like the demi spells in FF which are harder to heal from if your character has high MaxHP, but it isn't a good overall solution.
author=LouisCyphreauthor=unityWhat happens when the player misses them, though?
The objects that instantly increase the stats for a certain character may be the way to go.
I guess most of them wouldn't need to be hidden too well, then? Or always be in areas you can backtrack to? I'm not sure. The original idea, I think, came from Energy Tanks and Missle Upgrades in old Metroid games, but I guess missing upgrades in a platformer is quite a bit different than missing upgrades in an RPG.
author=Kiana
You could also consider a stat cap or restriction, so that while a player can give one character the lion's share of stat boosters, they have to spread them around a little. It could help mitigate the risk of the party becoming The Hero and Those Three Redshirts.
And if the stat boosts are only found, then I'm with Housekeeping on just adding the stats immediately.
Halloween Bash seems kind of similar, as I recall. Stat boosts are hidden around maps. When you find one, it prompts you to select a character to have their stats improved. Though there's an upper limit, so once a character is maxed out, a player can't select them anymore.
Oh yeah, I remember that! Halloween Bash did indeed do it quite well ^_^ That's certainly an idea.
It could definitely work! I've seen some games do systems like that well - Wine & Roses comes to mind.
If each consumable is tied to a specific character, then you can easily make sure each character gets their fair share. The advantage of a system like this is that you can ensure that characters get the stats they need to continue, by distributing these items after boss fights at regular intervals. If you do this with all stats (STR, AGI, etc.) then you can eliminate typical RPG leveling altogether and prevent or remove grinding, which may fit the kind of game you're trying to design. If it's just for HP/MP, then the player retains the ability to grind other stats, but even if they don't grind, you can at least be confident they'll have a certain level of HP and MP by passing out the consumables regularly.
If the boosts aren't tied to specific characters, then you're giving the players the option of who to boost, and that could be... dangerous, depending. I imagine that late in the game characters with no HP boosts could die very easily, and now the player has no way to remedy the situation. Maybe that would work better if they were swappable equipment? Either that, or if there was some sort of diminishing returns, or possibly a negative to spending all your boosts on one character. Still, if the consumables are limited, the player could dig themselves into a hole very easily.
These are just little things to keep in mind; I love this sort of alternative leveling, especially if it redirects focus from mindless powerleveling to the progression of the story. Good luck :D
If each consumable is tied to a specific character, then you can easily make sure each character gets their fair share. The advantage of a system like this is that you can ensure that characters get the stats they need to continue, by distributing these items after boss fights at regular intervals. If you do this with all stats (STR, AGI, etc.) then you can eliminate typical RPG leveling altogether and prevent or remove grinding, which may fit the kind of game you're trying to design. If it's just for HP/MP, then the player retains the ability to grind other stats, but even if they don't grind, you can at least be confident they'll have a certain level of HP and MP by passing out the consumables regularly.
If the boosts aren't tied to specific characters, then you're giving the players the option of who to boost, and that could be... dangerous, depending. I imagine that late in the game characters with no HP boosts could die very easily, and now the player has no way to remedy the situation. Maybe that would work better if they were swappable equipment? Either that, or if there was some sort of diminishing returns, or possibly a negative to spending all your boosts on one character. Still, if the consumables are limited, the player could dig themselves into a hole very easily.
These are just little things to keep in mind; I love this sort of alternative leveling, especially if it redirects focus from mindless powerleveling to the progression of the story. Good luck :D
You can do missable upgrades akin to Illusion of Gaia: Killing all monsters in a room (I think?) would increase one of the player's stats. However the game had no backtracking of any sort. So when the player completes a dungeon they get all the bonuses in it as though they killed the monster. It keeps them up to par with the game but still gives an advantage of killing the enemies: Having the upgrade when you fight the boss.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
It could totally work. Hell, it worked for me.
You can't baby-safe a system like this, though that's not to say that the standard method of leveling is any better if there's ever a point in your game where your heroes are split up. The best you can do is to build your game's plot around the importance of all of your party members, thus making them all equally viable and equally deserving of these stat boost items. You need to write them in a way that makes them all stand out (or you could do what I did and decrease the number of characters down to a bare minimum while maintaining a healthy social/gameplay dynamic).
You can't baby-safe a system like this, though that's not to say that the standard method of leveling is any better if there's ever a point in your game where your heroes are split up. The best you can do is to build your game's plot around the importance of all of your party members, thus making them all equally viable and equally deserving of these stat boost items. You need to write them in a way that makes them all stand out (or you could do what I did and decrease the number of characters down to a bare minimum while maintaining a healthy social/gameplay dynamic).
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This hopefully goes without saying, but don't sell unlimited amounts of stat-increasing items in shops. Please? I feel like it should go without saying, except I definitely remember a thread earlier this year where someone was planning to do exactly that. They couldn't understand why any game needed both XP and gold, since the game would be much simpler if you could just buy Strength Seeds in every shop.
If it's just HP and MP, they're probably never really going to be integral to your success as a player. The HP is just going to give you more room for error, while the MP is probably mostly going to save you money on ethers. Of course, depending on the amount of HP you get from the items, and depending on how easy it is to heal HP and MP, it might be a much bigger deal.
This is a really good method of dealing with non-replayable content. I do something similar with blue magic spells in dungeons you can't replay. If the player can go back and get stuff they missed/skipped, then it's not nearly as big a deal.
author=LouisCyphre
What happens when the player misses them, though?
If it's just HP and MP, they're probably never really going to be integral to your success as a player. The HP is just going to give you more room for error, while the MP is probably mostly going to save you money on ethers. Of course, depending on the amount of HP you get from the items, and depending on how easy it is to heal HP and MP, it might be a much bigger deal.
author=GRS
Killing all monsters in a room (I think?) would increase one of the player's stats. However the game had no backtracking of any sort. So when the player completes a dungeon they get all the bonuses in it as though they killed the monster. It keeps them up to par with the game but still gives an advantage of killing the enemies: Having the upgrade when you fight the boss.
This is a really good method of dealing with non-replayable content. I do something similar with blue magic spells in dungeons you can't replay. If the player can go back and get stuff they missed/skipped, then it's not nearly as big a deal.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=LockeZ
This hopefully goes without saying, but don't sell unlimited amounts of stat-increasing items in shops. Please? I feel like it should go without saying, except I definitely remember a thread earlier this year where someone was planning to do exactly that. They couldn't understand why any game needed both XP and gold, since the game would be much simpler if you could just buy Strength Seeds in every shop.
It's a problem if they're at a set price and you're constantly getting more gold per monster. In my case, the prices increase (replicating the experience growth curve) depending on how many you buy and you never get a ridiculous amount of "money" so you're never realistically in a position where you can buy 250 of every kind of stat item and max out your character. Not to mention, this gives the default amount of treasure more worth (and keeps all treasure obtained relevant which hardly if ever happens in any given RPG since you have to balance in purchasable equipment and the sort) the further you get into the game as obtaining it otherwise would put you back a larger amount of "gold". The more you buy, the more treasure pays off, instead of buying the best weapon in a shop and getting the next best weapon that you'll be able to buy in the next town over, resulting in a net loss.
It's disguising what you want normally by giving it to you in unconventional and story-significant means that grants developmental agency to the player, which is always a plus.
author=Corfaisus
The best you can do is to build your game's plot around the importance of all of your party members, thus making them all equally viable and equally deserving of these stat boost items.
forcing single-character scenarios (and making sure to show it's gonna happen) sounds like a nice way to go about it.
Anyways, how would I go about it:
- These can't be bought in shops.Or shops have a very limited stock on them, and they are very expensive. (in such a case it'd either restock after plot points or be shop-dependant.)
- The formula for stat-up would be related to something like (plot progression) / (ammount of stat-ups taken)
i.e. plot progression = 400, player has taken 40 stat-ups. Player will receive 10 HP when drinking an HP+. etc. (adjust formula accordingly xD)
- Inventory would be limited.This is to avoid allowing the player to stack up on 99 HP+ potion drops and spending them all when Plot Progression = 9999. xD
Those are the things I'd do anyway. This way, giving all potions to the same character wouldn't be as helpful to the party (I'd still do it, but it'd arguably make the game way more challenging. Kind of a self-imposed challenge), still allows for customization, doesn't incite grinding that much (unless you make monsters drop them. Which sounds interesting at first, but then again, maybe HP+ potion drops could get rarer the more you got from that specific enemy type? Or only 10 potions can be dropped per area?) and feels overall fun. Other interesting things would be adding stats to the equation (so that a higher-STR character benefits more from the Potions... thus making Leveling indirectly give health.), and creating HP and MP requirements to maybe skills and equipments? Or making them unlock innate, hidden skills. Or affecting random chances like 1HP Survival Rate, stuff like that.
Anyway, could be fun. These are the stuff I would likely implement. xD
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=CorfaisusIf anything I feel like plot-important characters are more likely to leave the team. If they are all nameless personality-less mooks, then I know they will stick around for the entire game because there's no possible reason for them to leave.
The best you can do is to build your game's plot around the importance of all of your party members, thus making them all equally viable and equally deserving of these stat boost items.
If you're worried about the player irreversably screwing up their character, then don't make it irreversable. Let them pay some gold to reset a character and get back the items spent on that character. A lot of games do this.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=JosephSeraph
Anyways, how would I go about it:
- These can't be bought in shops.Or shops have a very limited stock on them, and they are very expensive. (in such a case it'd either restock after plot points or be shop-dependant.)
i.e. plot progression = 40, player has taken 10 stat-ups. Player will receive 4 HP when drinking an HP+. After drinking 30 more stat-ups, the player would be healed 1HP per stat-up. After a while plot progresses again...
- The formula for stat-up would be related to something like (plot progression) / (ammount of stat-ups taken)
i.e. plot progression = 400, player has taken 40 stat-ups. Player will receive 10 HP when drinking an HP+. etc. (adjust formula accordingly xD)
- Inventory would be limited.This is to avoid allowing the player to stack up on 99 HP+ potion drops and spending them all when Plot Progression = 9999. xD
This essentially punishes the player for building a character in their own fashion by making items worth less based on how many they use. Why would you want that?
author=LockeZ
If you're worried about the player irreversably screwing up their character, then don't make it irreversable. Let them pay some gold to reset a character and get back the items spent on that character. A lot of games do this.
http://rpgmaker.net/forums/topics/16718/?p=1#posts
If it's a consumable item, how would that make sense that you spend money to regurgitate said item and it still be perfectly good? Why would you lose strength in said manner anyway? What sort of timeline wormhole have I found myself in? Mommy, why does the giraffe have two legs?
author=Corfaisus
This essentially punishes the player for building a character in their own fashion by making items worth less based on how many they use. Why would you want that?
No it doesn't. Mathematically speaking, let's look at it:
Consider this base formula: (Plot Progression) / (Potions Taken + 50)
You have 10 HP+ potions. Plot Progression is 200. Neither character has ever taken a single potion.
You can divide 5/5 or give all 10 to one character.
Result is:
200 / 50 = 4
200 / 51 = 3.92
200 / 52 = 3.84
200 / 53 = 3.76
200 / 54 = 3.67
200 / 55 = 3.63
200 / 56 = 3.57
200 / 57 = 3.50
200 / 58 = 3.44
200 / 59 = 3.38
200 / 60 = 3.33
5 potions = + 22.82 HP total hp gained by the party = 45,64
10 potions = + 40,04 HP. Total HP gained by the party = 40.04
in other words, giving all potions to the same character was roughly 12% less effective, in terms of pure Hp. It can be potentially wise, though, if said character has a passive or an active skill that doubles HP or scales off of max hp.
Alternately, a character would need to take 50 potions for their effectiveness to decrease by half its initial value. (bestowing 2hp as opposed to 4.) that, considering that Plot Progression doesn't increase.
I can't see how would I be punishing the player. (this value of 50 could be easily adjusted to how frequently characters can find potions, how benefitting would be to stack potions on the same character, etc. Alternately you can also use an external multiplier to have the HP given be much greater, in case of those potions being rarer.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
I don't see how that discredits my position, but let's take this from another stance: if there's diminishing returns on an item that is either a. expensive or b. hard to come by, why make it more of a pain in the ass to get what you want out of it? Remember, you are making a game, after all. If I'm already grinding to get these things, why bother with them when I can just level up normally? Why would you as a developer want to put this extra payload on yourself when the default system is just as good. It's kind of like people making CBS and CMS; why bother busting your ass for that negligible piece of "flair"?
Why not do the logical thing and let the player make their own decisions without having to calculate how many +1 HP potions they'll need to go up 100 points?
Why not do the logical thing and let the player make their own decisions without having to calculate how many +1 HP potions they'll need to go up 100 points?
Nirwanda
1250
^^^See what you caused?
The matter can actually be solved easily. Just ask yourself: As a player, what would I get out of this? If you really think it would increase your enjoyment of the game, then go ahead, otherwise don't.
IMHO, I'm not a fan of the idea. Sure, it worked on Wine and Roses, but that's because that was an exploration game. Finding powerups was the whole point of it (well that and the kickass battles).
Frankly I don't see how the system could work on a regular story-driven game: if the powerups are plentiful (or even buyable) it'll lead to tons of munchkining. If they're rare, it'll make the player obsessively explore every area and talk to every NPC thrice just to make sure they didn't miss a crucial power up, which basically means grinding game progression to a halt. Finally, if they are easy to find, they will feel pointless and unsatisfying. You might as well just automatically powerup characters after certain plot points or boss battles (which has been done before to great effect). Of course I could be wrong :P (Edit: maybe on a rogue-like it would be a perfectly serviceable system)
It's a little bit cliche, but I believe that instead reinventing the wheel you should look for what makes other games fun for you and try to make it your own.
The matter can actually be solved easily. Just ask yourself: As a player, what would I get out of this? If you really think it would increase your enjoyment of the game, then go ahead, otherwise don't.
IMHO, I'm not a fan of the idea. Sure, it worked on Wine and Roses, but that's because that was an exploration game. Finding powerups was the whole point of it (well that and the kickass battles).
Frankly I don't see how the system could work on a regular story-driven game: if the powerups are plentiful (or even buyable) it'll lead to tons of munchkining. If they're rare, it'll make the player obsessively explore every area and talk to every NPC thrice just to make sure they didn't miss a crucial power up, which basically means grinding game progression to a halt. Finally, if they are easy to find, they will feel pointless and unsatisfying. You might as well just automatically powerup characters after certain plot points or boss battles (which has been done before to great effect). Of course I could be wrong :P (Edit: maybe on a rogue-like it would be a perfectly serviceable system)
It's a little bit cliche, but I believe that instead reinventing the wheel you should look for what makes other games fun for you and try to make it your own.
author=Corfaisus
I don't see how that discredits my position, but let's take this from another stance: if there's diminishing returns on an item that is either a. expensive or b. hard to come by, why make it more of a pain in the ass to get what you want out of it?
That's just balancing >.>
For the same reason Movespeed stops scaling so well after 500 in League of Legends (you can still keep building it, though, and the difference won't be negligible)
For the very same reason when you level up you can't keep on focusing the same stat forever on Seiken Densetsu 3
And also for the same reason when you level up it costs more to allocate stat points to the same stat in so many different western RPGs, etc.
It is a soft cap, and there is nothing wrong with soft caps :I
It's not a "negligible" piece of "flair", it's just outright balancing. I don't want my player to be encouraged to give 200 HP+ potions to the same character, having a party with 3 characters that have 100 HP and 1 with 2600.
I want to cap that so that while stacking is still possible, it has a soft cap that won't encourage this.
And once again, it's also not "negligible" because the player still has the option. They can choose to add a nice amount of HP+ potions to the healer so h/she lasts more and heals more, to the tank so the tank absorbs more damage, to the fighter so he can outdamage the enemies, etc.
And since he has the choice, party compositions will end up being very different, a party with a high HP mage is very different from a party with high a HP tank, or warrior. Why would be giving the player control "negligible"
Also, since the effect of the potions would increase with Plot Progression, it would be a temporary soft cap. :3
author=Nirwanda
The matter can actually be solved easily. Just ask yourself: As a player, what would I get out of this? If you really think it would increase your enjoyment of the game, then go ahead, otherwise don't.
author=Nirwanda
It's a little bit cliche, but I believe that instead reinventing the wheel you should look for what makes other games fun for you and try to make it your own.
These two pieces of advice are actually what made me think of the idea in the first place. ^_^
As a player, I like exploration and finding things. I think it would be fun to get HP/MP growth that way instead of traditional grinding. As for looking to other games to find what's fun, I played both Feral Solidarity and Tantibus recently, and both played around with using items to level and discarded a lot of the notions of how leveling is supposed to normally be achieved.
I get where you're going from, and "don't fix it if it isn't broken" and "don't reinvent the wheel" are good advice, as otherwise you risk screwing up character stat progression, but I think the risk just might be worth it and may pay off by making parts of the game feel fresh and new.
