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NOMIC: A GAME ABOUT CHANGING THE RULES
Posts
Trihan
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CloseSo I'm gonna try and get a little bit of Nomic going all up in here.
For the uninitiated, Nomic is a game, probably unlike any you've played before. You see, in Nomic, there are some rules, and the game is all about changing and adding to them. There is pretty much no limit to how this game will turn out; it will depend entirely on the decisions of its players.
There are a number of rules the game begins with, which will be posted below. As players add new rules or change the existing ones, I'll update the initial post. But as with any game here, it starts with sign-ups. I'm gonna say that I can probably manage about ten players for this.
Here's the initial list of rules so you can get an idea of how the game works before you decide if you want to play:
So who's in?
For the uninitiated, Nomic is a game, probably unlike any you've played before. You see, in Nomic, there are some rules, and the game is all about changing and adding to them. There is pretty much no limit to how this game will turn out; it will depend entirely on the decisions of its players.
There are a number of rules the game begins with, which will be posted below. As players add new rules or change the existing ones, I'll update the initial post. But as with any game here, it starts with sign-ups. I'm gonna say that I can probably manage about ten players for this.
Here's the initial list of rules so you can get an idea of how the game works before you decide if you want to play:
Immutable Rules
101. All players (a player being defined as "a forum member who expressed an interest in joining the game prior to the proper game thread being created", and taking effect only at the creation of that thread) must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).
*
102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.
*
103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.
(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)
*
104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.
*
105. Every player is an eligible voter. If a player has not voted 72 hours after a proposal being made, they will be considered to have voted against the proposal.
*
106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.
*
107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.
*
108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.
If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.
*
109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.
*
110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.
*
111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.
*
112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.
*
113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.
*
114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.
*
115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.
*
116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.
117. If a player is required to post and fails to post for a week, they lose and are permanently removed from the game. If the game cannot continue as a result (for example if they were the judge in a dispute), the game master, in this case Trihan, is appointed to act in that player's stead.
*
Mutable Rules
201. Players shall alternate in alphabetical order by username, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.
*
202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) subtracting 291 from the ordinal number of the proposal and multiplying the result by the fraction of favourable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)
*
203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.
*
204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.
*
205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
*
206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.
*
207. Each player always has exactly one vote.
*
208. The winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.
*
209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.
*
210. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.
If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.
If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.
*
211. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.
When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.
The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.
Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.
New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.
If a Judge cannot be determined, the Game Master (Trihan) will have final say in the resoution of the dispute.
*
212. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.
This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.
101. All players (a player being defined as "a forum member who expressed an interest in joining the game prior to the proper game thread being created", and taking effect only at the creation of that thread) must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).
*
102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.
*
103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.
(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)
*
104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.
*
105. Every player is an eligible voter. If a player has not voted 72 hours after a proposal being made, they will be considered to have voted against the proposal.
*
106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.
*
107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.
*
108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.
If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.
*
109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.
*
110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.
*
111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.
*
112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.
*
113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.
*
114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.
*
115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.
*
116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.
117. If a player is required to post and fails to post for a week, they lose and are permanently removed from the game. If the game cannot continue as a result (for example if they were the judge in a dispute), the game master, in this case Trihan, is appointed to act in that player's stead.
*
Mutable Rules
201. Players shall alternate in alphabetical order by username, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.
*
202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) subtracting 291 from the ordinal number of the proposal and multiplying the result by the fraction of favourable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)
*
203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.
*
204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.
*
205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.
*
206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.
*
207. Each player always has exactly one vote.
*
208. The winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.
*
209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.
*
210. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.
If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.
If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.
*
211. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.
When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.
The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.
Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.
New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.
If a Judge cannot be determined, the Game Master (Trihan) will have final say in the resoution of the dispute.
*
212. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.
This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.
So who's in?
I don't think it did either, thought I'd try and get it going again. Doesn't look like that's going to happen unless I have a game with two players. :P
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
There does not appear to be any rule disallowing players from joining mid-game, nor any rule preventing me from beginning my turn before anyone else has joined. My name comes alphabetically before Trihan, therefore I join the game and it is my turn and I propose the following rule change:
301: Rule 105 is now mutable.
As we tend to have people disappear without warning from these forum games, I think that changing the way rule 105 works will be an absolute necessity to finishing the game. Yay or nay, Trihan?
301: Rule 105 is now mutable.
As we tend to have people disappear without warning from these forum games, I think that changing the way rule 105 works will be an absolute necessity to finishing the game. Yay or nay, Trihan?
That's a good point, LockeZ. I might add rules to the original set saying that people can't join mid-game or take a turn before the game starts. :P
Yeah, 105 could be problematic considering how flaky players can be. Perhaps I'll have the initial rules stipulate a "maximum" time for discussion and voting, and rather than having to vote on every proposal a player's vote will be considered as abstaining if they haven't voted by the time the maximum time expires. What do you think?
Yeah, 105 could be problematic considering how flaky players can be. Perhaps I'll have the initial rules stipulate a "maximum" time for discussion and voting, and rather than having to vote on every proposal a player's vote will be considered as abstaining if they haven't voted by the time the maximum time expires. What do you think?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I contest my own interpretation of the rules, as rule 201 states that turn order is based on surname, not username. My surname is Znderson while Trihan does not have one; the turn order is unclear. I defer to the player who took a turn before me as the judge.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
As there is no player before me, my contest provides a paradox which makes it impossible to continue. According to rule 213 this makes me the winner as I am unable to complete my turn.
Game over.
Game over.
I'll change that to say username instead of surname.
Edit: Also, your strategy doesn't work. As the game hasn't started yet, there is no player list; you are therefore not a player, and are ineligible to make proposals.
Edit: Also, your strategy doesn't work. As the game hasn't started yet, there is no player list; you are therefore not a player, and are ineligible to make proposals.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I joined the game and am therefore a player. If you wish to contest this, the previous player will be appointed as a judge.
Well in that case the previous player is me, since by posting the game in the first place I was inherently considered player 1. That makes me the judge, and I say you're wrong; until the original poster adds a player list to the first post, nobody except the original poster is considered a player.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I contest your interpretation that you are the "previous" player, as you had not yet taken a turn.
Who becomes the judge for my contest paradoxically cannot be decided, therefore I am unable to complete my turn. I win.
Who becomes the judge for my contest paradoxically cannot be decided, therefore I am unable to complete my turn. I win.
Where in the rules does it say that you have to have taken a turn to be considered a player? By that logic you wouldn't have been able to take a turn to begin with, since you weren't a player at the time and you had to be a player to do so.
Edit: I appreciate what you're doing here and it is funny, LockeZ, but as I do actually want to run this game if anyone else is interested could I politely ask that you stop hijacking the thread, please?
Edit: I appreciate what you're doing here and it is funny, LockeZ, but as I do actually want to run this game if anyone else is interested could I politely ask that you stop hijacking the thread, please?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
You are right, it's unclear. The interpretation should be decided by the previous player as a judge. However, since we can't determine who the previous player is due to the very nature of what we're debating, I am unable to complete my turn, and therefore win.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I'm not "hijacking" the thread. This is how you play Nomic.
Read rule 101 again, and stop double posting. :P
You're just being deliberately obtuse now, you know the game hasn't started yet.
Edit: Though rule 101 in its original incarnation covered me anyway, since it specified that rules are only in effect when a game begins and I hadn't said the game had begun yet.
You're just being deliberately obtuse now, you know the game hasn't started yet.
Edit: Though rule 101 in its original incarnation covered me anyway, since it specified that rules are only in effect when a game begins and I hadn't said the game had begun yet.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
See? Now you're actually trying. Editing the OP was the correct answer. Good job.
Rule 101 didn't originally state that you had to begin the game, so my move was legit.
I'll join when you start properly. Count me in. For the record, I also recommend changing either rule 212 or 213 somehow, otherwise you only delayed your loss by one turn. A sensible change would be "If it cannot be determined who was the previous player, the game master, in this case Trihan, is appointed as judge."
Also, would you prefer I didn't double-post? I assumed that editing my posts in a game like this would be bad form.
Rule 101 didn't originally state that you had to begin the game, so my move was legit.
I'll join when you start properly. Count me in. For the record, I also recommend changing either rule 212 or 213 somehow, otherwise you only delayed your loss by one turn. A sensible change would be "If it cannot be determined who was the previous player, the game master, in this case Trihan, is appointed as judge."
Also, would you prefer I didn't double-post? I assumed that editing my posts in a game like this would be bad form.
The general forum rule against double-posting would take precedence in a pre-game thread. When it actually starts properly editing posts would indeed be bad form.
What changes would you suggest making to 212/213? I'm open to suggestions before I begin, and since there are only two signups so far I'm not even sure how long this will take to get off the ground. :P
What changes would you suggest making to 212/213? I'm open to suggestions before I begin, and since there are only two signups so far I'm not even sure how long this will take to get off the ground. :P
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
My suggestions before we start:
Add a new immutable rule 117: "If a player is required to post and fails to post for a week, they lose and are permanently removed from the game. If the game cannot continue as a result (for example if they were the judge in a dispute), the game master, in this case Trihan, is appointed to act in that player's stead."
Change rule 201 to say "usernames" instead of "surnames".
Add to rule 212: "If it cannot be determined who was the previous player, the game master, in this case Trihan, is instead appointed as judge."
Add a new immutable rule 117: "If a player is required to post and fails to post for a week, they lose and are permanently removed from the game. If the game cannot continue as a result (for example if they were the judge in a dispute), the game master, in this case Trihan, is appointed to act in that player's stead."
Change rule 201 to say "usernames" instead of "surnames".
Add to rule 212: "If it cannot be determined who was the previous player, the game master, in this case Trihan, is instead appointed as judge."
