[POLL] MISCHIEF MANAGED

you don't need to have made games to criticize how pleasing, enjoyable and meaningful a game is. in fact, the best reviews of rm* games would come from people OUTSIDE OF the rm* community. it always baffles me why people list """features""" like THIRTY-SEVEN HEALING ITEMS, TWENTY QUESTS, A BESTIARY when like... are you advertising to the tiny, tiny rm* dev community? if so, why? if you made a game seriously i'd hope you'd want to market it to people outside of the insular community -- people who don't give a fuck that you shoved in a half-assed fishing script for FEATUREZ.

i mean, something like EPIC MONSTER DUNGEON EXPLORE! 2 was 100% meant to be a game just for RMN, as was Zombieconomy (part of Befuddle Quest 4 Dead which I handily included in my 2k/3 games playlist.........). those don't deserve to leave the community, haha. but something like wine and roses? not designed to impress any of you guys specifically =P

I don't think "you have to have made games in order to critique them properly" was the argument. The argument was "you have to understand the context of something before you have an informed opinion of it," which I completely agree with. My dad--who, during a troubleshooting session over the phone with me, just a few years ago looked for a cd-rom drive IN THE BACK of a computer--wouldn't be able to give a review of any substance to any game here. Likewise, if you took me to a fancy restaurant and asked me to review the food, I'd probably be like, "eh, I'd rather have a whataburger."

author=Housekeeping
I don't think "you have to have made games in order to critique them properly" was the argument. The argument was "you have to understand the context of something before you have an informed opinion of it," which I completely agree with. My dad--who, during a troubleshooting session over the phone with me, just a few years ago looked for a cd-rom drive IN THE BACK of a computer--wouldn't be able to give a review of any substance to any game here. Likewise, if you took me to a fancy restaurant and asked me to review the food, I'd probably be like, "eh, I'd rather have a whataburger."

author=myformerselves
To suppose to summarize in five minutes a work that required three years to develop is arrogance. Assessing those that create when you do not is ignorance.
...
If the short can measure the long...accurately and fully encapsulate the whole of someone's life in two words. Describe to me 1000000 years of history in one pithy sentence.

Firstly he basically says "take 3 years writing a review or don't write a review at all". And that writing a 1000-word long review for an indie game makes your opinion as irrelevant as trying to describe the entirety of mankind in a few words.

author=myformerselves
To know you must have done. To do you must learn. This is why we don't take advice from children---they have no experience. You are free to make an opinion but only an educated one is worth listening to. This is only considered a fallacy by the fallacious.

Secondly he says "if you don't create games then you can't write reviews". He likens a critic to a child who knows nothing of life because he hasn't been educated by creating, but he doesn't realize you don't need to create to know what's good from the horse crap, and why that is.

author=myformerselves
You accuse the game of poor pacing---never realizing that in Middens the player sets their own pace.

He says that his game is immune to the throes of bad pacing because it features a player-controlled character.

author=myformerselves
But I have to think that it's a bit unrealistic to ask that I lay quietly while the peanut gallery violates my naughty bits. A wise man once said, 'judge not lest ye be judged and for the measure you use'. Try walking into an art gallery in downtown Chicago and pinning insults to paintings. Then turn to the responsible artists and tell them to accept it. See what kind of reaction you get.

And then he basically says an artist should respond to all negative criticism offensively.

Whereas this short, not very well-articulated review that gives the game 5 stars I believe is a very shallow review, with comments like "this is a beautiful game" and "the music is also very well done" and "the gameplay isn't glorious... but that's where the charm of the game resides!"

So if the creator would accept a review that is positive but aggress against a very well articulated review, which I do not believe is at all a review that is ignorant (see NTC3's track record and you'll see a very well learned track record of games, he clearly has experience in it) and I think it's more just a case of an artist getting irate because his game wasn't lauded as the next masterpiece.

@Cash: He also says this:

author=myformerselves
What is truly ill-conceived is presuming to judge the work of another when you lack any understanding of the context of that work.

Do you believe that Medieval art is bad because the perspective is off? Do you believe that the paintings of the Surrealists are bad because the images don't make sense? Do you believe that an abstract painting is worthless because a child could recreate it? Do you believe what is pleasant is good and what is unpleasant is bad?

This is the first thing he says. I think this is the core of his argument, and the snippets you've quoted are him taking it too far. I'm not saying he didn't handle it poorly, but I think this core point is valid. Too, of course he's not going to berate a five-star review written by a less-informed person. A poorly-informed compliment is a lot easier to accept than even a well-informed criticism. Too, no offense to NTC3, but I don't know whether or not he really understands the context of Middens. I mean, I don't understand the context of Middens--I know very little about the art that builds the foundation of the experience. I don't think I could make an informed opinion of it. His review was articulate, though, for sure.

And, yes, of course this is mostly about an artist getting irate because they're criticized. I think that's worthy of empathy, though, instead of the usual "get a thicker skin" schtick. The guy's put in a lot of thought and his work is stemming from a lot of experience. We'd all feel insulted if that amount of thought and effort got narrowed down to a two-star rating, but he's just more vocal about it. It makes him seem childish, but it makes him honest as well. I don't know if one's worse than the other.

Sorry--I'm probably drudging this up, but I kind of wanted to participate in that conversation when it was happening. I think I was a little too late to the party when I first noticed it, though.

Ok, I don't get this discussion. I have to agree with House, that I prefer a burger over some fancy expensive food.
My personal experience with criticizing is that I usually get more forgiving as I become part of the business (gams, films, music).

Sorry, if this comment is out of place. I've just wanted to point it out without any particular reason or sides-choosing.
Also, I have no problem with Middens, I'm just bored with it's appearance on all the playlists.