LET'S TALK ABOUT MAP DESIGN
Posts
Welp here's the item shop I made for my new game.
It's not just a shop,it's also the shop owner's house.When you enter the map she will be happy and run to the counter and when you exit the map she will go back to where she was.Those barrels are throwable and you can actually get what's inside that treasure chest.
It's not just a shop,it's also the shop owner's house.When you enter the map she will be happy and run to the counter and when you exit the map she will go back to where she was.Those barrels are throwable and you can actually get what's inside that treasure chest.
author=CrazeWow.
where is the light coming from
you're not ara fell, it looked mediocre in ara fell anyway
Sorry I did actually get a chuckle out of this.
So, how would you guys do a barn? I've done one barn map in my life, but I've never been in a barn.

author=CrazeLol. That's a matter of taste tbh.
where is the light coming from
you're not ara fell, it looked mediocre in ara fell anyway
Honestly, the light is fine if it's coming from a clearly-defined source, but the way you have the photo displaying here looks messy and random. Try to edit your overlays so it excludes the "gray area" of your map.
Example~
Development wise, the only thing I've been caring about maps lately is how much space there is to travel between finding items and encounters, what's a good ebb and flow for dead ends or temporary dead ends, good use of bracktracking, good use of layout loops, proper pacing of puzzles that affect the maps, good NPC density etc. I never really see this discussed that much of all the time I've been in the RM community. Non dangerous areas like towns and shops seem to matter little since all you need to do is to keep the space straight forward.
A big thing I have with map design that I see a lot that makes me mad is huge, repetitive, empty spaces. It looks horribly ugly and it makes me want to shoot myself. I'd rather have a smaller, tighter, more detailed map design of anything any day than a giant, spacious house or village with empty shit going on.
bm it's the exact same (or at least, nowhere near dissimilar enough) as ara fell's nonsensical overlay. your examples look fine, if a bit overwrought. i'm saying that overlay looks like shit, the one that everybody fucking uses. i'm not saying that all overlays ever suck
author=CrazeLol, relax i wasn't judging you, I was just sharing a laugh.
bm it's the exact same (or at least, nowhere near dissimilar enough) as ara fell's nonsensical overlay. your examples look fine, if a bit overwrought. i'm saying that overlay looks like shit, the one that everybody fucking uses. i'm not saying that all overlays ever suck
author=Feldschlacht IVOne of my friends has an injoke about his huge maps that hasn't stopped being funny after 2 years even now he's not doing it.
A big thing I have with map design that I see a lot that makes me mad is huge, repetitive, empty spaces. It looks horribly ugly and it makes me want to shoot myself. I'd rather have a smaller, tighter, more detailed map design of anything any day than a giant, spacious house or village with empty shit going on.
Thanks for the advice Craze, gonna be redesigning it in the P:A style and just wanted to make sure I had the basic idea down.
I am all for small, tighter maps, but sometimes you have to have a big ol' map to show scope for certain things - say if you want something shown to be massive. That's when it counts because it's in comparison to the tight, small shit you've been using the whole time.
It can be hard to tighten up different kinds of maps like plains and deserts. I recommend people who have issues with making maps of those kinds of places to try various counter-measures like limiting the maps themselves - making the area seem long by not making the maps big but having a succession of smaller maps and time skips. For example, a desert could be 4 small maps in succession, then a pit stop as 'night falls' at a small oasis, then 5 small maps, another pit stop and then 3 maps to leave. This gives the illusion that the journey was a lot longer than your typical dungeon, but allows you to not have to worry about big ol' empty maps.
And as for what to fill those small maps with? Not just sand or grass, please. For deserts you can have cliffage, dead trees, cacti, dry river beds, cracked ground tiles, rocks, pebbles, dead or dying grass (depending on how close you are to the oasis). You could also add inns and trail markers if the desert is well-travelled, hell, even a dusty road.
And for plains, small patches of trees here and there, long grass, dirt pathing (if the plains are often travelled), small camp areas, different plants, some slight cliffage, small pools of water, flowers and the like. You could even have permanent camps set up for wayfarers to sleep in (instead of oasis to rest at). Maybe even houses every now and then, ranches or farmsteads that are few and far between.
As for lighting effects, the one you used in the shop shows no light source. The ones BM showed came from the windows. There's a big difference between slapping a light down on a scene and calling it done vs having it planned and making sense. Indoor areas would have light coming from various sources, but unless that house don't have a roof, I doubt it would have come from that angle. XD
Light sources can be hard, but what a lot of people don't know is that they're better as subtle, so that they add to the map instead of covering it. People recently have taken to being heavy handed with lighting (well, there's always been people who have done that but more-so now that lighting can be done decently in-engine) and it sucks. No, really, it does. Use lighting subtly to build on the map you've already created. Don't just slam one down and say "Wow, look at my lights! Wow!"
It can be hard to tighten up different kinds of maps like plains and deserts. I recommend people who have issues with making maps of those kinds of places to try various counter-measures like limiting the maps themselves - making the area seem long by not making the maps big but having a succession of smaller maps and time skips. For example, a desert could be 4 small maps in succession, then a pit stop as 'night falls' at a small oasis, then 5 small maps, another pit stop and then 3 maps to leave. This gives the illusion that the journey was a lot longer than your typical dungeon, but allows you to not have to worry about big ol' empty maps.
And as for what to fill those small maps with? Not just sand or grass, please. For deserts you can have cliffage, dead trees, cacti, dry river beds, cracked ground tiles, rocks, pebbles, dead or dying grass (depending on how close you are to the oasis). You could also add inns and trail markers if the desert is well-travelled, hell, even a dusty road.
And for plains, small patches of trees here and there, long grass, dirt pathing (if the plains are often travelled), small camp areas, different plants, some slight cliffage, small pools of water, flowers and the like. You could even have permanent camps set up for wayfarers to sleep in (instead of oasis to rest at). Maybe even houses every now and then, ranches or farmsteads that are few and far between.
As for lighting effects, the one you used in the shop shows no light source. The ones BM showed came from the windows. There's a big difference between slapping a light down on a scene and calling it done vs having it planned and making sense. Indoor areas would have light coming from various sources, but unless that house don't have a roof, I doubt it would have come from that angle. XD
Light sources can be hard, but what a lot of people don't know is that they're better as subtle, so that they add to the map instead of covering it. People recently have taken to being heavy handed with lighting (well, there's always been people who have done that but more-so now that lighting can be done decently in-engine) and it sucks. No, really, it does. Use lighting subtly to build on the map you've already created. Don't just slam one down and say "Wow, look at my lights! Wow!"
It's all good if your bigger map has functional purpose. If there's something cool to see (which is a legitimate feature of a game), sure. If there's somewhere to go, fine. If there's something to do, that's the best.
But a lot of these maps have these huge, featureless spaces with just barrels or trees or shrubs or something that just takes a bunch of time walking through, and tricks the player into thinking there's something there when it's not. Space compression is a valuable skill I don't see brought up enough in the Screenshot thread.
But a lot of these maps have these huge, featureless spaces with just barrels or trees or shrubs or something that just takes a bunch of time walking through, and tricks the player into thinking there's something there when it's not. Space compression is a valuable skill I don't see brought up enough in the Screenshot thread.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Are you serious? It gets brought up for every single screenshot that's bigger than 20x15.
People kneejerk against the concept though, because "open world" games are what sell now. If you hang out in, like, the gaming section of Reddit or whatever, the general consensus among players is that bigger = better, no exceptions. Games like FF15, Skyrim, and the new Zelda game that's in production, with vast expanses of terrain separating key sites, are all the rage. Games like Xenoblade which have as much explorable terrain as the state of California are considered the utter apex of level design. More than anything else, people want to be able to roam the outdoors and never run out of places to go, apparently. It doesn't matter if there's anything other than meaningless shrubs; as long as they can keep walking, nothing else matters. It's frankly maddening and idiotic, but that's popular opinion for you.
People kneejerk against the concept though, because "open world" games are what sell now. If you hang out in, like, the gaming section of Reddit or whatever, the general consensus among players is that bigger = better, no exceptions. Games like FF15, Skyrim, and the new Zelda game that's in production, with vast expanses of terrain separating key sites, are all the rage. Games like Xenoblade which have as much explorable terrain as the state of California are considered the utter apex of level design. More than anything else, people want to be able to roam the outdoors and never run out of places to go, apparently. It doesn't matter if there's anything other than meaningless shrubs; as long as they can keep walking, nothing else matters. It's frankly maddening and idiotic, but that's popular opinion for you.
The size of a map matters little, it's how you present it.
And fortunately I don't really have to obey popular opinions unless they are valid, which they rarely are.
I've felt the most in my maps when I use the 20x15 hand drawn style of Perseverance.
I'm actually gonna resume work on this game and it's maps come May. Looking forward to the Heartwood Forest revamp.
And fortunately I don't really have to obey popular opinions unless they are valid, which they rarely are.
I've felt the most in my maps when I use the 20x15 hand drawn style of Perseverance.
I'm actually gonna resume work on this game and it's maps come May. Looking forward to the Heartwood Forest revamp.
@LockeZ: Odd, the RM section of Reddit care about pretty, but not big being better. Of course, if you're working with games like Skyrim and the like, big is scale, but 2D games... no. And anyone telling you differently is lying out their asshole.
That said, there are times larger maps are called for. As long as you make the maps interesting, that's the main thing. Like I said, large bland empty maps are shit. If you have a large map that has lots of cool details and stuff, that's fine (bar the lag with enough events in Ace. >.<; )
That's why I talked about deserts and plains - because a lot of people are happy to hit the paintbucket with sand/grass and add maybe one or two cacti/bushes to a 50x50 map. That is bad, which is why I addressed those points before. But again, large maps can give your game a feel of massive scope. The reason most people make RM maps small is to cut down on lag btw. Any engine that isn't RM... I guess as long as the details are there, large maps can be great.
That said, there are times larger maps are called for. As long as you make the maps interesting, that's the main thing. Like I said, large bland empty maps are shit. If you have a large map that has lots of cool details and stuff, that's fine (bar the lag with enough events in Ace. >.<; )
That's why I talked about deserts and plains - because a lot of people are happy to hit the paintbucket with sand/grass and add maybe one or two cacti/bushes to a 50x50 map. That is bad, which is why I addressed those points before. But again, large maps can give your game a feel of massive scope. The reason most people make RM maps small is to cut down on lag btw. Any engine that isn't RM... I guess as long as the details are there, large maps can be great.
I really need a big big forest map right now........
BizarreMonkeyCrazeLol, relax i wasn't judging you, I was just sharing a laugh..
bm it's the exact same (or at least, nowhere near dissimilar enough) as ara fell's nonsensical overlay. your examples look fine, if a bit overwrought. i'm saying that overlay looks like shit, the one that everybody fucking uses. i'm not saying that all overlays ever suck
oh that was accidentally confusing
i meant blindmind, not bizzaremonkey. why are you both "bm" =|
i have nothing against your post!
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I don't think there's that big of a difference between how you handle size in 2D vs. 3D games. I mean obviously there are major differences in how you convey size, especially if the player can control the camera, and there are some differences in how the player traverses that area, but the idea that bigger maps create a bigger-scaled game is definitely true for both. I just think that bigger-scaled games are almost always worse than they would be if they got rid of the almost-empty filler between the meaningful parts. The size of the zones in Dragon Age 1 is better than Dragon Age 3, the size of the zones in FF12 is better than FF15, etc.
Designers think that creating a massive scope frees them from having to bother with level design. The reason they think that is because they are idiots. If you want to make a game about exploration, every inch of your world has to be worth exploring. The parts that aren't should be removed. Skyrim's overworld should've been condensed by 90%. Wind Waker's ocean should've been replaced by a menu. Xenoblade is simply beyond the point of fixing.
Designers think that creating a massive scope frees them from having to bother with level design. The reason they think that is because they are idiots. If you want to make a game about exploration, every inch of your world has to be worth exploring. The parts that aren't should be removed. Skyrim's overworld should've been condensed by 90%. Wind Waker's ocean should've been replaced by a menu. Xenoblade is simply beyond the point of fixing.
I think the thing that made Skyrim work with the huge size, is the sheer amount of stuff to look at/collect/do while going from one place to another. That and the ability to fast travel if you wanted, or other alternate area-skipping stuff like horses and carts. Hell, it was great climbing huge mountains just because you could (and finding little, out of the way caves and shit, even if they were basically very alike in a lot of ways).
Compare to a game like FF15 where just watching someone LP it was painful... The high encounter rate, coupled with the sheer size of the map (what was basically empty bar a couple of findable items and some pit stops...). Hell, there were places that looked of interest but had no interaction whatsoever (I remember one LPer stumbling across what looked like an old abandonned power station and ... that's all there was. Nothing to find or explore or learn, just some structure that stood there.)
Compare to a game like FF15 where just watching someone LP it was painful... The high encounter rate, coupled with the sheer size of the map (what was basically empty bar a couple of findable items and some pit stops...). Hell, there were places that looked of interest but had no interaction whatsoever (I remember one LPer stumbling across what looked like an old abandonned power station and ... that's all there was. Nothing to find or explore or learn, just some structure that stood there.)
author=CrazeOops, oh golly that is confusing!
oh that was accidentally confusing
i meant blindmind, not bizzaremonkey. why are you both "bm" =|
i have nothing against your post!
You could just go with Biz. That's what most of my friends call me by, even my stepdad.
Dragging us back to shops, does anybody else absolutely despise the department store that is present in almost every Pokemon game? You have to ride an elevator or climb stairs to go to twelve different registers just to buy the things you want, and the things that you are going to buy the most often are almost always on the upper levels. Actually, I remember Earthbound having an annoying shopping mall or two as well. Lots of empty space between registers, loading between floors.
I feel like shops should be limited to their function. If you're going to have a mall, then it should either contain several stores not just registers, and also have a purpose beyond "just run through seven screens whenever you need a first aid kit". If it's going to be big, it should be a central hub as opposed to just a shop.
As for large landscapes, deserts are almost always huge. That's the entire nature of a desert. Just massive expanses of sand, dunes, cliffs, canyons, and cacti. Final Fantasy XII had several deserts, and you spent the first several hours of the game in them with the exception of a sewer and a plain. Even worse is that they were all connected despite being identical, although it made emerging into grasslands and a jungle just that much more fulfilling.
I feel like shops should be limited to their function. If you're going to have a mall, then it should either contain several stores not just registers, and also have a purpose beyond "just run through seven screens whenever you need a first aid kit". If it's going to be big, it should be a central hub as opposed to just a shop.
As for large landscapes, deserts are almost always huge. That's the entire nature of a desert. Just massive expanses of sand, dunes, cliffs, canyons, and cacti. Final Fantasy XII had several deserts, and you spent the first several hours of the game in them with the exception of a sewer and a plain. Even worse is that they were all connected despite being identical, although it made emerging into grasslands and a jungle just that much more fulfilling.
Actually, the deserts in FFXII are a good example because they weren't just expanses of sand. Like you said, there were dunes, cliffs, cacti, canyons. Most mappers just painbucket sand on a map, add a few cacti and call it a day. Lazy~ and ugly.
See there's this thing - relative realism. It's the same thing that says 'don't make exact replicas of 20 story buildings in your game' and 'don't make houses the same size on the outside as they are inside'. Basically it's about making realistic the things that won't piss off the player but condensing that which will. So large, bare deserts which force the player to run for 20 minutes on nothing but sand? Bad design, condense it down.
It works for FFXII because you have a lot of treasure and many landmarks, the whole place is broken up into smaller areas, you have a map to help you know where you are at all times, each area looks different, monsters are on-map and engaging with you enough that you don't get bored, but also allow you to run past if you just want to get from x to y, there's a teleport feature that lets you just zoom through on repeat visits, you have goals in the areas, there aren't 100 different dungeons - the whole area feels like one, huge, interconnected dungeon due to the many entrances and exits.
It's actually an example of a dessert done well.
See there's this thing - relative realism. It's the same thing that says 'don't make exact replicas of 20 story buildings in your game' and 'don't make houses the same size on the outside as they are inside'. Basically it's about making realistic the things that won't piss off the player but condensing that which will. So large, bare deserts which force the player to run for 20 minutes on nothing but sand? Bad design, condense it down.
It works for FFXII because you have a lot of treasure and many landmarks, the whole place is broken up into smaller areas, you have a map to help you know where you are at all times, each area looks different, monsters are on-map and engaging with you enough that you don't get bored, but also allow you to run past if you just want to get from x to y, there's a teleport feature that lets you just zoom through on repeat visits, you have goals in the areas, there aren't 100 different dungeons - the whole area feels like one, huge, interconnected dungeon due to the many entrances and exits.
It's actually an example of a dessert done well.
























