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LET'S TALK ABOUT MAP DESIGN
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
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CloseAre there actually people who aren't totally pissed off by buildings changing size when you go inside?
Yeah, if you make your house the same size as the inner you have yourself a special place reserved in hell. The only time it's acceptable in a game is if you're making a game like the early DQ/FF games. Otherwise, do not do.
author=LockeZ
Are there actually people who aren't totally pissed off by buildings changing size when you go inside?
Yes, it's a totally acceptable creative abstraction that mitigates ugly meaninglessly giant ass fucking maps.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I can't possibly imagine a situation where it's acceptable to make the building smaller on the outside. It destroys your game's sense of scale, it looks completely hideous, and there's absolutely no benefit. It doesn't even change how much walking you have to do in the town exterior unless you're an abominably terrible mapper. I mean how big do you need your goddamn buildings to be inside, seriously?
Unless you're making an extremely specific type of game (the type where you intentionally engage in terrible game design for the sake of nostalgia) you shouldn't have an FF4/pokemon style "town exterior" for most towns in the first place anyway, since how many towns have you been to that consisted of seven buildings? It completely destroys the player's immersion. You're just used to it because you've played way too many shitty games and come to accept that shittiness as a given. Locations should be chosen from a menu or a town map in 99% of RPGs.
Unless you're making an extremely specific type of game (the type where you intentionally engage in terrible game design for the sake of nostalgia) you shouldn't have an FF4/pokemon style "town exterior" for most towns in the first place anyway, since how many towns have you been to that consisted of seven buildings? It completely destroys the player's immersion. You're just used to it because you've played way too many shitty games and come to accept that shittiness as a given. Locations should be chosen from a menu or a town map in 99% of RPGs.
Nope, sorry, some of us prefer to be able to walk around a town and not spend forever trying to get from one end to the other. Menus have their place in certain games but I much prefer exploring towns. There's just something about seeing how different each town is from the other that can't be replicated with menus.
I'd hardly call games like Suikoden II, Breath of Fire II, Terranigma and the like shitty. In fact, Terranigma is a great game to use in response to your idea about menus as town maps. You would not have the connection to various towns and how they upgrade and change through the game if you didn't get to explore them, know the NPCs and the layout. The different areas are culturally different and each town reflects the countries and people who live there. Some of them even act as dungeons. Menus would make the game shit.
Same with Suikoden II - if all the game became was menus with world map inbetween, it would be shit instead of the amazing gem it is. There are so many games where menu towns would not be an improvement. Chrono Trigger? Star Ocean II? Lufia II? Breath of Fire (all of them, actually)? Secret of Evermore? Illusion of Gaia? DQ VI, V, IV? Okami? Most other jRPGs, too. Just because it worked for a handful of games doesn't mean it would work for others.
I'd hardly call games like Suikoden II, Breath of Fire II, Terranigma and the like shitty. In fact, Terranigma is a great game to use in response to your idea about menus as town maps. You would not have the connection to various towns and how they upgrade and change through the game if you didn't get to explore them, know the NPCs and the layout. The different areas are culturally different and each town reflects the countries and people who live there. Some of them even act as dungeons. Menus would make the game shit.
Same with Suikoden II - if all the game became was menus with world map inbetween, it would be shit instead of the amazing gem it is. There are so many games where menu towns would not be an improvement. Chrono Trigger? Star Ocean II? Lufia II? Breath of Fire (all of them, actually)? Secret of Evermore? Illusion of Gaia? DQ VI, V, IV? Okami? Most other jRPGs, too. Just because it worked for a handful of games doesn't mean it would work for others.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Like I just said. It doesn't even change how much walking you have to do in the town exterior unless you're an abominably terrible mapper. I mean how big do you need your goddamn buildings to be inside, seriously?
Darken
3952
But it does saves a lot of walking. A house in BOF2 is roughly 3 tiles wide 4 tiles high, while an interior is 12 tiles wide 14 tiles tall. Those extra 9-10 tiles of walking across or even around EACH house is just filler space, the town ends up looking more compact and to the point when you simplify them.
So you're in a 2D orthographic fantasy world filled with chibi characters where you bump into enemies that teleport you into a battle scene with numbers floating around and mystical menus that you can access. Yeah oh no guys, better worry about scale for my immersion! This isn't game design this is just your personal gripe about how an entire genre of games do things.
So you're in a 2D orthographic fantasy world filled with chibi characters where you bump into enemies that teleport you into a battle scene with numbers floating around and mystical menus that you can access. Yeah oh no guys, better worry about scale for my immersion! This isn't game design this is just your personal gripe about how an entire genre of games do things.
As far as scale is concerned, as long as things are kept consistent (that is, if you do double size for inners, keep to that. Don't make two houses of the same size outside suddenly be completely different sizes inside) it should be fine. And yeah, the houses in Breath of Fire II are pretty compact inside but if they were the same outside the towns would be huge. It's the same with a lot of great games. Like we said.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Sounds like the problem is actually that the interiors of those buildings are absurdly huge. Let's look at two towns in Wyrm Warriors.
Here's the town of Liberty:
This is not a badly scaled town. It's not brilliant but the houses seem about the correct size on the outside. But when you go inside...
Why are they so much bigger? Those buildings are absurdly huge inside. The person making them obvious had absolutely no sense of scale. The rooms are filled with massive amounts of empty space.
Now let's compare a second town in the same game, but made by a different person. The town of Marison.
The buildings here are the same size as the ones in the Liberty. It doesn't take any longer to walk from one to the next. The town is certainly not any bigger (it's actually about half the size, though that's partially attributable to the fact that it has two less buildings). However, this town has buildings that are the same size inside as they are outside.
OK, they actually cheat by making the interior floor space be the same as the entire exterior size - the back walls make them two tiles taller inside. But a typical player will not notice that. They will notice that the buildings are much more appropriately sized inside. In an RMXP or RM2K3 map, you might want slightly bigger rooms, but in RMVXA the sizes of the objects and the characters are smaller, and the sizes of the rooms should be also. Each tile in VXA is about six feet, compared to about four feet in 2K3 and XP. Don't make your building interiors so pointlessly gargantuan, please.
Having a sense of scale definitely matters. It helps make the game feel like a world instead of a disconnected series of abstract representations of areas. That's important! You're saying "the game sucks in one way, therefore it's ridiculous to suggest preventing it from sucking in other ways!" That's terrible logic. That's such an obvious logical fallacy that I can't even believe you'd say it. I know you're smarter than that.
Here's the town of Liberty:
This is not a badly scaled town. It's not brilliant but the houses seem about the correct size on the outside. But when you go inside...
Why are they so much bigger? Those buildings are absurdly huge inside. The person making them obvious had absolutely no sense of scale. The rooms are filled with massive amounts of empty space.
Now let's compare a second town in the same game, but made by a different person. The town of Marison.
The buildings here are the same size as the ones in the Liberty. It doesn't take any longer to walk from one to the next. The town is certainly not any bigger (it's actually about half the size, though that's partially attributable to the fact that it has two less buildings). However, this town has buildings that are the same size inside as they are outside.
OK, they actually cheat by making the interior floor space be the same as the entire exterior size - the back walls make them two tiles taller inside. But a typical player will not notice that. They will notice that the buildings are much more appropriately sized inside. In an RMXP or RM2K3 map, you might want slightly bigger rooms, but in RMVXA the sizes of the objects and the characters are smaller, and the sizes of the rooms should be also. Each tile in VXA is about six feet, compared to about four feet in 2K3 and XP. Don't make your building interiors so pointlessly gargantuan, please.
Having a sense of scale definitely matters. It helps make the game feel like a world instead of a disconnected series of abstract representations of areas. That's important! You're saying "the game sucks in one way, therefore it's ridiculous to suggest preventing it from sucking in other ways!" That's terrible logic. That's such an obvious logical fallacy that I can't even believe you'd say it. I know you're smarter than that.
I actually prefer the town of Liberty. More houses, more areas to explore. Granted, the house inners could be made a bit more compact, but it's not too bad in the scheme of things. Honestly it's more about the details and mapping having little thought put into it than the size.
The houses in the bottom town... need better mapping. >.<; There is no excuse for having those beds like that. It's ugly and nobody in their right mind would stay at an inn that had beds laid out like that. It's far too compact. The shop is okay, though again, a bit too small. Frankly, I'd take something between the two, thanks.
Let me examplify!
First part of a (much) larger town. Houses are small and compact, allowing for more of them, giving the place a very crowded look - like a large town should be. On this screen there are 7 houses that can be entered, of 16. That's a lot better than 4 houses on a much larger area.
Inner of the mid-top yellow house, behind the inn. Two people live here. One is a guard and the other works as a scholar at the local church (her room is upstairs). You can see some of the details that point towards those two people - the books and image of the Goddess on the wall, the spears/swords and armour in the guards' room.
The house is larger than the one in the town but it noticeably the same house due to the shape. Consistency!
The item shop to the left. Notice the small indent on the right is the same as the one outside the building? Yeah, there's also a top floor that is barred off. It's got a good variety of shelving and even a small back area. Plenty detailed, good sized. There'll be 2-3 NPCs here at any time of the day, too.
Oh and you'll notice the gaps between shelves are where the windows from outside would go. Yeah~
Pink-roofed house in the lower-mid area. Plenty of space for the player to get around (in fact, apart from below the bed and above the table, it's all one-tile space to walk. Plenty detailed and giving a good feel for a house that is lived in.
First floor of a townhouse. It has three bedrooms normally, but after an event the basement gets two more and an office area added. Currently it houses three, though. The owner lives on the first floor and is a Squire aiming for his Knighthood.
It depends a lot on the game and just how much you care about it being detailed vs simplistic. But for the most part, good details, with smaller outer and bigger inners are much better than same sized both, except in certain games where it can work, but only within the style of the graphical examples. For jRPGs, though? Bigger in, smaller out is by far the best.
The houses in the bottom town... need better mapping. >.<; There is no excuse for having those beds like that. It's ugly and nobody in their right mind would stay at an inn that had beds laid out like that. It's far too compact. The shop is okay, though again, a bit too small. Frankly, I'd take something between the two, thanks.
Let me examplify!
First part of a (much) larger town. Houses are small and compact, allowing for more of them, giving the place a very crowded look - like a large town should be. On this screen there are 7 houses that can be entered, of 16. That's a lot better than 4 houses on a much larger area.
Inner of the mid-top yellow house, behind the inn. Two people live here. One is a guard and the other works as a scholar at the local church (her room is upstairs). You can see some of the details that point towards those two people - the books and image of the Goddess on the wall, the spears/swords and armour in the guards' room.
The house is larger than the one in the town but it noticeably the same house due to the shape. Consistency!
The item shop to the left. Notice the small indent on the right is the same as the one outside the building? Yeah, there's also a top floor that is barred off. It's got a good variety of shelving and even a small back area. Plenty detailed, good sized. There'll be 2-3 NPCs here at any time of the day, too.
Oh and you'll notice the gaps between shelves are where the windows from outside would go. Yeah~
Pink-roofed house in the lower-mid area. Plenty of space for the player to get around (in fact, apart from below the bed and above the table, it's all one-tile space to walk. Plenty detailed and giving a good feel for a house that is lived in.
First floor of a townhouse. It has three bedrooms normally, but after an event the basement gets two more and an office area added. Currently it houses three, though. The owner lives on the first floor and is a Squire aiming for his Knighthood.
It depends a lot on the game and just how much you care about it being detailed vs simplistic. But for the most part, good details, with smaller outer and bigger inners are much better than same sized both, except in certain games where it can work, but only within the style of the graphical examples. For jRPGs, though? Bigger in, smaller out is by far the best.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Those building interiors are a little big for VX Ace sprites to be walking around in. They would be perfectly fine if the characters were using XP sprites. They're not bad though.
The outdoor town map though... You give "we have to make the town as compact as possible" as your reason for shrinking the buildings outside, and then you add 8 additional buildings that can't even be entered? WTF? It would solve every single problem if you got rid of a couple of the dummy buildings and just expanded the real buildings to fill that space. That's exactly what I was talking about when I said that it doesn't change how much walking you have to do unless you're terrible at mapping.
I mean alternately, maybe make the characters smaller outside. Then it'll actually look like it's zoomed out instead of just WTF illogic.
The outdoor town map though... You give "we have to make the town as compact as possible" as your reason for shrinking the buildings outside, and then you add 8 additional buildings that can't even be entered? WTF? It would solve every single problem if you got rid of a couple of the dummy buildings and just expanded the real buildings to fill that space. That's exactly what I was talking about when I said that it doesn't change how much walking you have to do unless you're terrible at mapping.
I mean alternately, maybe make the characters smaller outside. Then it'll actually look like it's zoomed out instead of just WTF illogic.
Darken
3952
Ugh yeah it's soooooooooo VAST it's big enough to convey just the right amount of props to give a homeliness. But then you'll just complain about the appropriate leg space or how unrealistic it is to have the beds too close to the kitchen.
It's funny because the 2nd example looks really spaced out, exactly the problem I was talking about. The whole point is to talk to NPCs, stock up on items, find items, and maybe trigger a cutscene. If you can find the right amount of density to justify that space great but there's not much use of walking around that dumb item shop over there. Honestly it's hard to say about it all since I need to actually walk around in the town itself, it's something you have to get a feel for. But the point is you shouldn't be making the exterior of the house big because it has to line up, you should be making its size based on other factors, like say a castle is big because we're familiar with castles being big compared to houses, but the inside of it doesn't have to tile per tile line up with it. I mean you can do it, but it's just a matter of preference.
Why is it important? A series of abstract representations sounds about right for every game/media out there, my point isn't to excuse the badness moreover there's nothing bad about it. No one is going to take a measuring tape to everything. The people who count the number of ships in the final scene in Return of the Jedi in each shot only to realize it doesn't add up are missing the whole point of the film. You need enough subject matter to convey interesting imagination not something OMG SO BELIEVABLE I FORGOT I WAS PLAYING.
It's funny because the 2nd example looks really spaced out, exactly the problem I was talking about. The whole point is to talk to NPCs, stock up on items, find items, and maybe trigger a cutscene. If you can find the right amount of density to justify that space great but there's not much use of walking around that dumb item shop over there. Honestly it's hard to say about it all since I need to actually walk around in the town itself, it's something you have to get a feel for. But the point is you shouldn't be making the exterior of the house big because it has to line up, you should be making its size based on other factors, like say a castle is big because we're familiar with castles being big compared to houses, but the inside of it doesn't have to tile per tile line up with it. I mean you can do it, but it's just a matter of preference.
author=Lockez
Having a sense of scale definitely matters. It helps make the game feel like a world instead of a disconnected series of abstract representations of areas. That's important! You're saying "the game sucks in one way, therefore it's ridiculous to suggest preventing it from sucking in other ways!" That's terrible logic. That's such an obvious logical fallacy that I can't even believe you'd say it. I know you're smarter than that.
Why is it important? A series of abstract representations sounds about right for every game/media out there, my point isn't to excuse the badness moreover there's nothing bad about it. No one is going to take a measuring tape to everything. The people who count the number of ships in the final scene in Return of the Jedi in each shot only to realize it doesn't add up are missing the whole point of the film. You need enough subject matter to convey interesting imagination not something OMG SO BELIEVABLE I FORGOT I WAS PLAYING.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
If that were really true then you might as well not put any furniture or doodads in any of your maps either, as long as they convey the vital information. But you know that's bad, right? The player will subconsciously notice things that seem "off" when playing a game, and they won't stop and go "oh that's wrong," but each thing like that will slightly diminish their attachment to the world. They think of it more and more as a level instead of a place.
Realism? Three houses a town does not make. If it were a small town I'd use that space for farmland instead. I tend to keep my town maps around the same size but with different details to add to the story. You know, making use of what you have on hand graphically to enhance the story and all that jazz? It would be the same size with 7 houses as it would be with 16 so I don't see why it makes a difference. In fact, it reduces the amount of time to walk around because you have set paths instead of wandering all around being stupid like. Also, also, nooks and crannies in which to find treasure - because I don't just put them in houses.
Also, I like exploration in my games, and giving the sense of it. And world building. Saying a town is big and showing it is completely different. I find it hard to buy the whole "THIS IS A MAJOR CITY!" and see 5 houses. And I don't mean big as in THIS MAP IS 200 x 200!!! SO BIG, BIG CITY!!! That map is a whole 25x26. That's way better than the town you tried to sell me on with four fucking houses. :/
Sorry, no. Bad design. Show, don't tell.
Also, I like exploration in my games, and giving the sense of it. And world building. Saying a town is big and showing it is completely different. I find it hard to buy the whole "THIS IS A MAJOR CITY!" and see 5 houses. And I don't mean big as in THIS MAP IS 200 x 200!!! SO BIG, BIG CITY!!! That map is a whole 25x26. That's way better than the town you tried to sell me on with four fucking houses. :/
Sorry, no. Bad design. Show, don't tell.
Darken
3952
author=Lockez
If that were really true then you might as well not put any furniture or doodads in any of your maps either, as long as they convey the vital information. But you know that's bad, right?
A lot of that is in the creative territory on how far the artist/designer wants to take things. Again it's the preference thing I mentioned, one person might go all out on adding extraneous things in forest area but hopefully it's to convey something more exciting than... proper scale.
author=Lockez
The player will subconsciously notice things that seem "off" when playing a game, and they won't stop and go "oh that's wrong," but each thing like that will slightly diminish their attachment to the world. They think of it more and more as a level instead of a place.
Even considering things like atmosphere, music, style, lore, do a much better job of getting people attached to places inside a video game cartridge? I'm really not convinced these slight details actually help the game. You're the only one I know who complains about these things.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Seeing a town with 11 buildings and one with 5 buildings is the same... they're both ridiculously tiny. Both of them had damn well better be trying to convince me that the town extends for several miles outside of the traversable area.
author=LibertyIt doesn't make a difference! That's my whole point! You claim that your only reason for bullshitting the scale is to prevent the size of the town from increasing, but you can fix the problem without increasing the size of the town at all!
It would be the same size with 7 houses as it would be with 16 so I don't see why it makes a difference.
Really I see that as a pet peeve, Locke, because I don't mind entering a town and seeing 2 houses and a lumberjack. I don't need to see him eat for the game to say he's a person. Games aren't real. I suspend disbelief.
Maybe you don't. Then go find something like the Sims maybe. It's not a terrible sin that games don't have 100 houses the size of hobbit homes.
Maybe you don't. Then go find something like the Sims maybe. It's not a terrible sin that games don't have 100 houses the size of hobbit homes.
No, I don't think you get it - in a town by me, 7 houses would be the same room as 16, because I'd still fill up the excess area with details that cannot be moved in. In this case it was more houses to show a population. With a township it would be farmland. But that's ME.
The map you showed as better is huge in comparison, and bloated too much. It's far too big and part of that is the houses being made so large. If I'd used a map that size it'd only ever be for a dungeon or a city, never for a hick town in the middle of nowhere. There's far too much room. And believe, I've tried the 'same size out as in' dealio - getting the same size and still being small is bullshit hard to do, especially when you want details too.
If you want details and world lore, your towns to look like actual towns that have a population, show but not tell, then your idea doesn't work. If you want simple, basic, boring-ass towns whose whole purpose is to stock up on items and that's all, then make a menu.
The map you showed as better is huge in comparison, and bloated too much. It's far too big and part of that is the houses being made so large. If I'd used a map that size it'd only ever be for a dungeon or a city, never for a hick town in the middle of nowhere. There's far too much room. And believe, I've tried the 'same size out as in' dealio - getting the same size and still being small is bullshit hard to do, especially when you want details too.
If you want details and world lore, your towns to look like actual towns that have a population, show but not tell, then your idea doesn't work. If you want simple, basic, boring-ass towns whose whole purpose is to stock up on items and that's all, then make a menu.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
@Cash: Oh lord, I certainly did not mean to imply I want bigger towns. Please no. The towns in FF13 are just the right size for me - they don't exist and are replaced by a series of shop menus that can be accessed at save points.
But if you're going to do something, do it right.
@Liberty: But... the town I showed as "better" was the smaller of the two. The overall town size was smaller, the buildings themselves were the same size, and there was less space between buildings. What aspect of it seemed "huge in comparison" to you?
But if you're going to do something, do it right.
@Liberty: But... the town I showed as "better" was the smaller of the two. The overall town size was smaller, the buildings themselves were the same size, and there was less space between buildings. What aspect of it seemed "huge in comparison" to you?
