THE OFFICIAL ENGLISH 2K3 VERSION IS OUT!

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Holy geez, guys.

It's nobody's business whether Gretgor wants to support the program.

We have these empty moralisms about how it's the right thing to do.

...Is it?

Many years ago, according to the stories told by the people of ancient Greece, there lived two brothers who were not like other men, or like the gods and goddesses of Mount Olympus. They were the sons of one of the Titans who had fought against Zeus and been sent in chains to the prison of the Lower World.


The name of the elder of these brothers was Prometheus (which means Forethought). Prometheus was always thinking of the future and making things ready for what might happen tomorrow, or next week, or next year, or even in a hundred years time. The younger was called Epimetheus (which means Afterthought). Epimetheus was always so busy thinking of yesterday, or last year, or a hundred years ago, that he never worried at all about what might come to pass in the future.

Prometheus did not want to live amongst the clouds on Mount Olympus. He was too busy for that. While the gods were spending their time in idleness, drinking nectar and eating ambrosia, he was planning how to make the world wiser and better than it had ever been before.

So instead of living on Olympus, Prometheus went out amongst men to live with them and help them and he quickly noticed that they were no longer happy as they had been during the golden days when Kronos, the titan, was king. He found them living in caves and in holes of the earth, shivering with the cold because there was no fire, dying of starvation, hunted by wild beasts and by one another—the most miserable of all living creatures.
"If they only had fire," said Prometheus to himself, "they could at least warm themselves and cook their food; and after a while they could learn to make tools and build themselves houses. Without fire, they are worse off than the beasts."

Prometheus went boldly to Zeus and begged him to give fire to the people, so that so they might have a little comfort through the long, dreary months of winter.

"I will not!" said Zeus, "Not one spark will I share with them! For if men had fire they might become strong and wise like us, and after a while they would drive us out of our kingdom. Besides, fire is a dangerous tool and they are too poor and ignorant to be trusted with it. It is better that we on Mount Olympus rule the world without threat so all can be happy."

Prometheus didn't answer, but he had set his heart on helping mankind, and he did not give up. As he was walking by the seashore he found a tall stalk of fennel. He broke it off and then saw that its hollow center was filled with a dry, soft substance which would burn slowly and stay alight for a long time. He carried the stalk with him as he began a long journey to the top of Mount Olympus.
"Mankind shall have fire, despite what Zeus has decided," he said to himself. And with that thought, he snuck quietly into Zeus' domain and stole a spark from Zeus' own lightning bolt. Prometheus touched the end of the long reed to the spark, and the dry substance within it caught on fire and burned slowly. Prometheus hurried back to his own land, carrying with him the precious spark hidden in the hollow center of the plant.

When he reached home, he called some of the shivering people from their caves and built a fire for them, and showed them how to warm themselves by it and use it to cook their food. Men and women gathered round the fire and were warm and happy, and thankful to Prometheus for the wonderful gift which he had brought to them.

One chilly winter evening, Zeus gazed down from Mount Olympus and noticed fires burning cheerfully at the hearths of men and women in every village across the land. It did not take him long to realize that Prometheus had disobeyed him and given fire to men.

Zeus was very angry and ordered that Prometheus be chained to the side of a mountain to suffer there for all eternity. And there Prometheus stayed, thinking of the future, happy in the knowledge that he had given fire to men until he was one day rescued by Hercules, the mortal son of Zeus... But that is a story for another day!

We have a product that was free because the original maker abandoned it. The general public, from my understanding, tweaked it and released it to keep up with previous versions. They did so for years, free. That is, original makers abandoned it, and someone else shared it. No, not stole it, they improved upon the product for free.

If you left your wife alone for 10 years, not calling, emailing, or visiting while you go fight in a war would it be reasonable to believe that she should stay married to you? Heck no! That's neglect. She would file for divorce, because apparently you like to fight more than you like her. How about leaving your job for 3 years to go join the PeaceCorps? No, again. They will give your job to other people. So here, a company basically has a product that as far as I know, was completely unavailable for at least a few years except as a free version. Which the providers of said free version dutifully provided. Original people catch wind of this, and decide "hmmmm we're missing a marketing opportunity." So back to the original analogy. If you left for years with no word, would you expect your wife to remain faithful? She might, but you would be in the minority. And depending on how you did this, it's possible even if she was a decent woman this would still possibly be the case if she thought you died or ran off. Ditto for a job. It would be unjust to expect someone to remain faithful, anyone who is should be praise and anyone who isn't is excused. In fact, if they really cared about us, they could have done so years ago, and kept up wuth the updates.

Some of us might think now is the proper time to pay for the product. But the fact of the matter is, we have no business playing the guilt trip card. Because this is plain and simple abandonment. Both abandonment of the product, and abandonment of the potential customers. And we've moved on to a better one, so to speak, one that treated us right. Whether it is free or not, is moot, because it has working plugins and better features.

So yea, we have a paid version. I've tried it, they dropped the ball, and I got stuck paying for a product that didn't have plugins, and was an uninstall of many of my patches and upgrades. Worse, I had to reinstall all of them because I deleted the 2003 of the game prematurely. After enough people raised a stink they agreed to make some upgrades but... I could argue that they've still done nothing to improve, since I don't happen to have a working Steam account, and the main site still doesn't have the update. In other words, they've left us people who for whatever reason can't use Steam (I don't have a working Paypal account either, not for lack of trying) in the cold, while they move on to MV. Also, despite plugins being "legal" it's still unavailable as there isn't a plugins system for the official 2003.
Gretgor
Having gotten my first 4/5, I must now work hard to obtain... my second 4/5.
3420
Does the original RM2K3 count as abandonware? If that's so, then I believe it's not exactly illegal to use it, right?

I mean, how long must a product be "abandoned" before it counts as "abandonware"? Everything is so complex :(

While I do understand where you come from (and respect your opinion), buying the engine still felt like the right thing to do (and I just did, like, a few hours ago).

It was, to me, more or less a way to thank the developers for pretty much saving my teenage years from being a complete waste, incentivating me to learn programming and all that. And when it came down to it, having the official version made me feel more "empowered" right from the get go.

I thank you for standing up in my favor, but now I already bought the official version, and I don't regret it. Still, I think you do have some valid points there that I failed to consider! Sorry if I made things confusing, and thanks anyway.

I'm happy with my decision to buy (for the above mentioned reasons), but I can appreciate that the subject is way more nuanced than I anticipated.
kentona
I am tired of Earth. These people. I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives.
20832
I hardly consider a product released in December 2002 and then translated into English illegally in 2003 as being "abandoned".
TFT
WHOA wow wow. two tails? that is a sexy idea...
368
cherry, do you have plans to further update this? or was the last patch the final one?

love the quality of life changes, just curious.
It's not abandonware, as has been stated by EB! many times - especially since it has still been for sale in the Japanese market all this time. Meaning, the illegal version is just that - an illegal version, just edited to be in English. The fact of the matter is, people trying to argue that are self-entitled twats who just want to excuse their own bad behaviour. It's not an excuse that works, though, because it is straight out a lie.

It is just like saying "Oh, I'm gonna take Fallout 3, convert it to the Klingon language then distribute it to anyone who wants it for free. Because it's not in Klingon and the creators have no known desire to change it to Klingon and besides, it's an older game, so it must be abandonware!!! That's okay, right? :DDD"


That said, how nice is the whole layout now? Being able to read the eventing is just so nice! And not only that, but not having tiny-ass windows in the animation areas and having an actual Help File that has examples and, hell, plug-ins!!! Oh, and of course the speed fix and the custom title thingy and~<3

Gretgor
Having gotten my first 4/5, I must now work hard to obtain... my second 4/5.
3420
I definitely feel a lot less eye strain when trying to read long event codes, especially for the puzzles and stuff, that usually use a ton of variable/switch operations. I really want to start my new game already, but the path I'll take in said new game depends radically on some feedback in my former projects, and I promise I'll put said former projects to the test in here.
author=Liberty
It's not abandonware, as has been stated by EB! many times - especially since it has still been for sale in the Japanese market all this time. Meaning, the illegal version is just that - an illegal version, just edited to be in English. The fact of the matter is, people trying to argue that are self-entitled twats who just want to excuse their own bad behaviour. It's not an excuse that works, though, because it is straight out a lie.

It is just like saying "Oh, I'm gonna take Fallout 3, convert it to the Klingon language then distribute it to anyone who wants it for free. Because it's not in Klingon and the creators have no known desire to change it to Klingon and besides, it's an older game, so it must be abandonware!!! That's okay, right? :DDD"


That said, how nice is the whole layout now? Being able to read the eventing is just so nice! And not only that, but not having tiny-ass windows in the animation areas and having an actual Help File that has examples and, hell, plug-ins!!! Oh, and of course the speed fix and the custom title thingy and~<3


But it was. And that's the point.

Preaching is for church and for religion forums. A person should do the right thing not because someone else told them so, but because they see a good reason to do so (like wanting to please a girl, is as good a reason as any).

If Gretgor wants to pay for it, not pay for it, that's not wrong.

I mean, how long must a product be "abandoned" before it counts as "abandonware"? Everything is so complex :(

It's not a timeframe.

author=wikipedia
Definitions of "abandoned" vary, but in general it is like any item that is abandoned - it is ignored by the owner, and as such product support and possibly copyright enforcement are also "abandoned". It can refer to a product that is no longer available for legal purchase, over the age where the product creator feels an obligation to continue to support it, or where operating systems or hardware platforms have evolved to such a degree that the creator feels continued support cannot be financially justified.

At the time when there were "illegal" versions of it, correct me if I'm wrong but it was being ignored by the author, had no working English copy (don't care that it was sold in Japan, if a person in Afghanistan wants a product that can't be accessed there, they usually find it another way. It is effectively a matter of fair use jurisdiction and whether or not to pursue something outside their zone, which they are not serving anyway except when it is convenient for them), and no product support. That counts.

Suppose a small niche group buys games in a small country. That's great and all, but if one looks online and most sores high and low, and the console is not even on Ebay, then from the perspective of your country, you have at least a legal leg to stand on.

It is technically illegal now, but if you've paid for a legal version, you have paid your dues, and are within rights to use whatever version you want.
No. It wasn't. And anyone saying so is talking out of their collective arses.

It is wrong, actually. It's called theft. As I already said, people can do what they want, but don't try to pretend that when you steal something you have no right to, that means it's right. ffs.

It was never abandonned, by ALL of those definitions, you plonker. It was not ignored by the owner, product support AND copyright infringement was still ongoing inside Japan (the country in which it was fucking released) and it was still for sale. So, yeah, it was not abandonned.
Give it a rest.

Look, whether you think it was illegal of not, the fact of the matter is I seem to remember only finding free versions, like, ever.

This is a tort (a personal offense), yes. But it is not a theft, you are downloading from someone else who committed a crime. Maybe. How is that different from unknowingly buying a DVD which is actually fake? This is a third party issue, at most. Theft is a crime when there is a victim. So is Enterbrain a victim?

...Let's review.

The idea of theft only applies when there is a version being sold in the area. The implication is that you are taking sales for the item. The idea of theft also applies if there is a physical object to hold. But here, we have an item that is not taking sales because it was not being sold here. There would not be sales lost, because there would not be sales anyway! If it was being sold, I never saw it. To add to this, you are not taking a physical object. You are downloading something that is available for free. If someone invites you in to their home, would you call that rent theft on your part? No, that's absurd! You would call them a kind person, welcoming of strangers, and try to do your best to live up to their kindness.

Theft is two things (a)Abuse of free goods; for instance, if you work at the library and they offer free copies to the librarians but you run off too many copies, it is costing them money and you ought to pay them back, or (b) taking something that belongs to others when you do not need it to live. What theft isn't is this: taking something freely offered by other people (and indeed they not only provided free downloads but often had other links to tools and utilities, wanting to be helpful more than anything), whether or not it was theirs to give (since you have no way of knowing this). If the above person is a squatter, and is opening their home to other homeless, this still doesn't make you a squatter. It makes you a dupe, maybe. But not a thief.

OpenOffice is free. Microsoft Word is not making money. Am I stealing money from Word? No, because I won't buy the license for a word processor anyway.
Americans refused to buy tea from the British. Does that make them thieves? No, it makes them vandals, because they smashed up the ships and dumped the tea.

We have, what, 80 or 90 years on this Earth? Life is really too short to act as moral watchdogs of everyone else. Especially when you seem to know nothing about either need or the actual morality you smugly throw around. Until you've been tempted to steal, you don't know the difference between stealing and having kindness done to you. Enterbrain was not being stolen from. Whether it is now, is mainly due to the fact that people who haven't bought the product when offered the retail version. Yes, that is the distinction.
The $20 price tag is a bit steep for a 13-year-old piece of software that has an increasingly niche appeal with every new RM release.
author=bulmabriefs144
Look, whether you think it was illegal of not, the fact of the matter is I seem to remember only finding free versions, like, ever.
That's nice, doesn't make it legal. Just because some random hobo gives you something on the street doesn't mean the cops won't get your for possession of a stolen item, after all.

This is a tort (a personal offense), yes. But it is not a theft, you are downloading from someone else who committed a crime. Maybe. How is that different from unknowingly buying a DVD which is actually fake? This is a third party issue, at most. Theft is a crime when there is a victim. So is Enterbrain a victim?
Because you do know? And yes, EB is the victim since it's their stuff being stolen. Please learn to fucking read.

The idea of theft only applies when there is a version being sold in the area.
No, it doesn't. If you go into someone's house and steal their shit and keep it, it is still theft. If you download a movie online, you can still be charged with it because you still stole it.

But here, we have an item that is not taking sales because it was not being sold here.
It was still being sold. Thus it was still being stolen. You could still purchase it from Japan - and some did. Legally. Don't delude yourself into thinking that there was no harm in it - there was a loss of sales.

If it was being sold, I never saw it.
Yeah, because you not seeing something sold means that it never was and that it was okay to steal. FFS.

To add to this, you are not taking a physical object.
Movies, games, music. Still get in trouble for that. Stealing is stealing and by any normal person's standards that is wrong.

You are downloading something that is available for free.
Yeah, just like going to piratebay and downloading something there is free. It's still illegal.

If someone invites you in to their home, would you call that rent theft on your part?
Yes... because Enterbrain totally INVITED people to steal their shit.
<- SARCASM BTW
Your anecdote makes no sense whatsoever.

Theft is two things (a)Abuse of free goods;
It is not and NEVER WAS a free good. Get that through your thick brain for the sake of fuck.

What theft isn't is this: taking something freely offered by other people
It is theft when the people offering the item stole it!

whether or not it was theirs to give
No, pretty fucking sure it's still theft.

(since you have no way of knowing this)
Everyone knows it was stolen and illegal. Literally everyone. The only people who didn't were newbs and they learned very fast that it was stolen. What are you trying to even argue? That not knowing something means that when you learn better you're acquitted of all wrong-doing? Um. no. it doesn't.

If the above person is a squatter, and is opening their home to other homeless, this still doesn't make you a squatter. It makes you a dupe, maybe. But not a thief.
Bad analogy yet again. A better one would be 'if this person stole a car and then told you you could have the steering wheel'... and yes, you can still get into trouble for that. Especially if you learn after the fact that it was stolen and didn't do anything to rectify that.

OpenOffice is free. Microsoft Word is not making money. Am I stealing money from Word? No, because I won't buy the license for a word processor anyway.
What even is this analogy? That doesn't work either! At all. What?

This is more like 'if I use unity to make games EB doesn't make money!!!' which is true, because you're not STEALING EB's product. There's a huge difference between using something else that is for free, and stealing something that is not for free and pretending it is 'because I say so', which is what your argument amounts to, btw.


Americans refused to buy tea from the British. Does that make them thieves? No, it makes them vandals, because they smashed up the ships and dumped the tea.
A-Are you even capable of any kind of rational thought at all? I mean, really? How does that even compare?!

author=umwhat
We have, what, 80 or 90 years on this Earth? Life is really too short to act as moral watchdogs of everyone else. Especially when you seem to know nothing about either need or the actual morality you smugly throw around.
You need to chill the fuck out, dude. You are taking this discussion to crazy-town, especially since you're the one who knows not of which they speak.

author=what
Until you've been tempted to steal, you don't know the difference between stealing and having kindness done to you.
What does this even have to do with anything at all?

Enterbrain was not being stolen from.
Except that they were. Obviously. As anyone with half a brain could tell.

Whether it is now, is mainly due to the fact that people who haven't bought the product when offered the retail version. Yes, that is the distinction.
I think you're missing some words there in your rush to get down a diatribe that means less than nothing to the discussion in question. Like, seriously. What?







author=Mobh
The $20 price tag is a bit steep for a 13-year-old piece of software that has an increasingly niche appeal with every new RM release.
The pricetag is partly for the program but mostly for the license to use the resources commercially. That said, there have been sales - I've seen it as low as $2 - and there probably will be more.

It has also seen a pretty large upgrade from the initial version and there's still a lot of people who love the engine more than the newer ones. A lot of the people who bought it did so for nostalgia and in thanks, but also because of the varied resource components out there that already exist for it, as well as the resources within the engine, which they can now use in other RM engines. Frankly, I think it's a good buy, but again, there have been sales and will be more if anyone wants to nab it at a cheaper pricetag.
It's not theft. It's duplication. Nothing tangible was actually taken from EB. You can talk about the loss of potential profits, and that's assuming that the people who downloaded the illegal English version would've actually bought it.

Not that I'm defending pirates, but it's all about convenience. It's probably the reason why you didn't start studying Japanese in order to use the legitimate version of Rm2k3 back in the day.
author=mobh
Not that I'm defending pirates, but it's all about convenience.


Yeah asking for your mom's credit card is a bit of hassle.
In our world where information and software can be stolen, it is theft. The pure definition of the word circa 1990 no longer holds true, just as the pure definition of the word gay has come to mean something else altogether. In our world, duplication without permission is theft. Anyone who argues against that is wrong. Pure and simple. Just as someone taking someone's game and putting it on another site without their permission is theft, so too is duplicating something and distributing it to others without legal rights.

You can copy every word out of a book, write it on a computer and sell it online and it is still theft. Pure and simple.

You don't own it, you don't own the rights to say whether it is allowed to be distributed in a certain way, thus doing so - taking for yourself or passing on to others, is illegal.


I have no issue with someone taking the program and using it for themselves - I did the same for a long time, until a legal English version was released - but I do have issue with people arguing that it isn't wrong to do so.

I own up to the fact that I took something illegally - stealing it - and used it for many years. It doesn't quite make up for it to purchase it again, but I rest assure that I am now doing the right thing. Thus, to do the right thing I was beforehand doing the wrong thing - because theft is wrong. And anyone trying to argue that unlawful duplication isn't theft needs to rectify their idea of what theft is in the modern age.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
6003
If you dumbasses don't want to buy RM2K3 then come up with a better justification. You're not on some moral high ground here. Paying for RPG Maker results in the continued development of RPG Makers. You're either too poor or too cheap to do that, and you're trying to convince yourselves as much as convince anyone else that it's okay.

If you just wanted to steal it, you'd do so without making a fuss - what you're looking for in your post is affirmation from others that you're still a good person.

If you really can't afford to help fund the development of tools that help other people make games, and yet you still want to make your own, then I understand. I support the creation of art above anything, and if that's your only option, then go ahead and steal the software and make your game. But you'd better make your games good enough to be worth it. Bulma, you have failed in this regard. You ought to go back and pay Enterbrain double, once for the software and a second time as an apology for associating your games with their brand.
Technically, software piracy is a type of fraud rather than theft as no property is lost by the makers. Stealing actual physical copies would be theft.

Still, I don't like pirating software either way - the only time where I can turn a blind eye is when there's no legal way of obtaining the software. In fact, it was likely that RPG Maker 2000 being pirated resulted the newer makers to be localized in the first place!

I generally don't want to take a side, though - when people talk about piracy, they'll either dismiss it as completely fine or go insane lengths to prevent/punish it.
Liberty, you're losing more and more credibility with every post, because by pushing the "theft" line, you're associating yourself with the sleazy types who tried to push stuff like SOPA on us. Remember the first rule of holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging.

Copying is not theft. It's so simple that even a child could understand it, literally.
author=Mason_Wheeler
Liberty, you're losing more and more credibility with every post, because by pushing the "theft" line, you're associating yourself with the sleazy types who tried to push stuff like SOPA on us. Remember the first rule of holes: when you find yourself in one, stop digging.

Copying is not theft. It's so simple that even a child could understand it, literally.


Basically part of what I said - the only reactions to piracy tend to be apathy or gross exaggeration. I can't identify with either.
author=Liberty
In our world, duplication without permission is theft. Anyone who argues against that is wrong. Pure and simple. Just as someone taking someone's game and putting it on another site without their permission is theft, so too is duplicating something and distributing it to others without legal rights.


So now it's about distribution? I thought we were talking about possession here. In any case, I'm not drinking that Kool-Aid.

At this point I suppose I should point out that I have paid for licensed copies of 2k3, XP, VX, Ace, and MV.
It's about stealing and distribution, and yes, stealing it is theft. Distribution is part of that and only came up because the mind of Bulma goes off on crazy tangents.

Anyone who doesn't understand the change that the 21st Century has had on the word probably needs to go back to the 1900s when it only dealt with taking physical things.

You can steal ideas, you can steal corporeal things that are not physical. That is a theft. The only ones losing credibility are idiots who think that calling things by another name makes it a-okay, especially when at the core it is taking something that you have no right to have - aka THEFT.

Trying to break it down into other areas just to excuse the theft of something is stupidity at it's finest because anyone with half a brain knows that taking something you do not own or have the right to own is stealing.