Hey Mason_Wheeler if everyone followed your logic we'd have more infringements on our rights to distribute intellectual property than China.
But that's not what's being discussed here; we're talking about a case of something not being distributed, for well over a decade. That's a very different creature, enough so that I would call that a false analogy.

I also like how you are blowing up the issue into some sort of "fight the power" bullshit for a game-making tool.
I'm sorry, but if you think I'm blowing this problem out of proportion, you're not paying enough attention to what's going on in the world around you.

Actually what's lost is a potential for someone to make a profit on the ideas and software that they spent hours on end creating with the intent of being sold. That's simple, not extraordinary at all.
Finally, someone who actually makes an honest attempt to bring a real argument to the table! You are a refreshing change of pace.

Unfortunately, you're also incorrect, on several different levels. First off, remember that this was not being sold in English-speaking markets for well over a decade. So there was no potential to lose until that abruptly changed. It was created with the intent of being sold... in Japanese markets. Non-Japanese-speaking audiences had no good reason not to treat it as abandonware.

Second, look at what's happened since the authorized version was released: it's been selling plenty of copies, (bringing in revenue from people who would have never known about it if it hadn't been for the unauthorized translation,) and everyone's abandoning their use of the unauthorized translation in favor of the authorized release. Study after study after study has shown that this is completely typical of piracy in pretty much every media market: when an authorized release is available for a reasonable price, piracy withers and dies even though it's still available (and still available for free.)

That right there puts the lie to accusations of "thievery." Why would a thief freely choose to pay for something he could steal, or (in many cases) already had stolen and has no use for more than one of? It suggests that piracy is not a moral failing on the part of the audience and never has been; where it occurs it is always a symptom of market failure on the part of the publisher. It's basic supply and demand at work: fail to supply a product that's in demand for a reasonable cost, and someone else will supply it. To argue that this is inherently immoral is to argue that basic economics is inherently immoral.

It's important to realize that the notion of "intellectual property" is incredibly new in historical terms, and the way in which it's currently (ab)used is newer still. Copyright was invented in the 18th century as a way to rein in the abuses of publishers who would print popular books without any compensation to the author, depriving the author of the opportunity to make a living from his work. In the US Constitution, it's specifically stated that the purpose of copyright is "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts," and that was a good idea while it lasted. But ever since the 1970s, parasitic publishing interests (you know, the people copyright was intended to protect against) have been turning the whole idea inside out and perverting it into a tool to allow them to prey on not only authors, but the general public.

There's nothing "inevitable" or "inherently correct" or "morally right" about the current state of intellectual property laws. Its gradual metamorphosis and corruption can be traced through a long string of bad laws and bad court cases over the years, most particularly the last four decades, and it could have gone very differently at any number of points. I'd recommend the book "Digital Copyright" by Jessica Litman if you'd like to know the story in more detail. Also, the study "The Sky is Rising", and the updated version from a few years later, "The Sky is Rising 2", by Mike Masnick and Michael Ho, provide an interesting look into what's really happening to various entertainment-related industries who swear up and down to anyone who will listen that piracy is totally destroying them and putting them out of business. (Yeah, the title's a bit of a spoiler. It's still worth reading.)

Suffice it to say, there's far more to it than the excessively over-simplified, narrow scope of things being presented by the "copying = theft" crowd, and their narrative simply does not fit the facts. At all.
You... You're talking to yourself you idiot.
Hey guys, can we like move this topic of swearing and thievery out of the 2k3 topic? Like idk, split it away D:

It makes our hard work look like shit lolol
Unfortunately, we don't have split tools, but I can just say this: No more talk of anything outside 2k3 itself.

Theft, swearing and stupid anecdotes begone from this thread.
Theft, I think. Or toddler? Not sure. Maybe To? It confused me as well.
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
Mason_Wheeler, you might want to edit your post to fix the quoting mistake you made.

Anyway, I can get your reasoning in regards to why people do pirate and distribute things illegally, but it doesn't change the fact that it's just that, illegal. That's what Liberty (as callous as she behaved, but cut her a break. She wasn't feeling well and this is someone who actually does a damn lot for this community), I and so many others were getting at. You can find as much justification as you like, but the law is still the law, no matter how warped and flawed it may be. Stating that you are doing "nothing wrong" because you truly believe you aren't shouldn't apply, because in hard cold legal terms, you are.

This flawed reasoning was employed by those who spoke in favor of using the pirated version, as if somehow the law doesn't apply just because they're "right," so of course we started to make jeering remarks towards them. It's full blown ignorance and demonstrates a bloated sense of entitlement.

Honestly, this discussion shouldn't even have happened since Gretgor actually learned from his mistakes and moved on. You are taking this up from a loud-mouth buffoon (you know who you are) whose arguments demonstrated the exact same flaws I mentioned above.
You can find as much justification as you like, but the law is still the law, no matter how warped and flawed it may be. Stating that you are doing "nothing wrong" because you truly believe you aren't shouldn't apply, because in hard cold legal terms, you are.

So are we talking about morality, or are we talking about laws? All this moving of goal posts gets confusing fast! Also, what do you believe I'm doing wrong? When the authorized version of RM 2003 became available, I purchased it. (If you don't believe me, Kentona's one of my friends on Steam. He can verify it.)
Yeah, remember how four posts above I said to drop the topic as it's off topic?
Drop it.
The most useless Final Fantasy class is the Thi--



LET'S REJOICE now rm2k/3 are stable and beautiful babies. The latest 2k3 patch was awesome! Now not only it isn't blurry anymore, I have a lot of control over how it renders stuff!
WHOA wow wow. two tails? that is a sexy idea...
cherry, do you have plans to further update this? or was the last patch the final one?

love the quality of life changes, just curious.

Having gotten my first 4/5, I must now work hard to obtain... my second 4/5.
Theft, I think. Or toddler? Not sure. Maybe To? It confused me as well.
I thought it was Titanic, for some reason.
Stand back. Artist at work. I paint with enthusiasm if not with talent.
Whats the T word?

EDIT: Ninja'd.
The most useless Final Fantasy class is the Thi--



They're so much better once they get the Mug ability:
This thread is hilarious for all the wrong reasons

My boring contribution is that I still use the pirated version of Ace for 99% of my Ace shit. I have the steam version and I use it to create a new project so the defaults aren't in Japanese then I close it and go back to the pirated because I prefer its localization over the official one. I guess the tooltips were never done but w/e, I don't need them anyways unlike the official release where I can never remember what MGR or FDR or so are without them.

I also can't open my project in RM2k3 and have to stick to my resource edited RT2k3 because my enemies have stats over the official caps and afaik they still haven't been increased. Opening the game in RM2k3 snaps stats back to their caps and like hell I'm going to rebalance everything for that.

I also have a pirated copy of XP because I long since lost my registration information for it (iirc they quit working one day after a reinstall and I just grabbed a key generator instead of dealing with customer service but it's been so long I don't remember clearly).

I have this same situation.
I have RMACE and RMXP on sream, RM2k3 RMweb version, RM2k HB non DRM version and I buy usage RM95 and RM95 value boxs version one week ago.

And I not use ACE - I didn't like it.
In RMXP I use pirat version because official version has bug with messages (only 3 lines in window), sream version can't open 2 and more projects in one moment (this is annoyed while copy scripts etc), in nonofficial version a lot of restrictions are repair.
RM2k3 - old version has a lot of patches and has old corrupt full screen mode. New version is super but has stupid way fonts (I am not English), less patches (this isn't it guilt). And finally I have RMweb version (I really hate sream by experience with RMXP in it) so I don't give 1.11 version - this is very sad.
RM2k - I like this battle system, but program is neglected, HB version is old english version, this is also unavailable in official site. This hasn't patch eula, so I can't use my language (polish) font in this version.

RM95 - My favorite version, I buy it because I think that this is better than new RM version. But use this in for example english is broke license (a lot of texts is in exe file). Stifu's 1.23xp version has repair also a few option, which is corrupt in oryginal version...

This is all. I am really disappointed english distribution RMs, this is unfortunately must use pirat version. I still wait for 1.11 RM2k3 version.
I think you just have to redownload the RMW version to get the newest patch added to it - that is, I'm pretty sure they update the download each time they add a patch, so just redownload and fill in the necessary information (key and email address) and it'll work. >.<)b
Is there even a reason that RM2K is not included in the RMW store? I mean, they tell us buying directly from their site helps their bottom dollar, and prefer people visit them over Steam, but when you can't get the updates you need or a product they're selling without going through Steam, that creates a large disconnect between them and their customers.

Otherwise, a lot of people still have questions about the plug-ins for 2K3 (which ones can be used, will more be allowed, will there be future updates) that haven't been addressed.

I won't justify other people's rants over what's legal or not. Yes, it was only released here recently, and before that wasn't available. And yes, plenty of good games came out as a result of the illegal versions. But it may have been better had the illegal versions never been released at all since it's created such a huge diversion; the downside being, the popularity of it would not have been there and the legal versions probably wouldn't have come out.

However, I feel that more people will feel stronger about supporting the legal versions of 2K3 and 2K if they feel they are being valued as customers, which also includes addressing their concerns and questions instead of ignoring them.
As I said, it's not the fact that people used them that the discussion was about, but whether it was wrong to do so. Everyone with a working set of morals knows it was wrong, not matter their reason for doing so. They don't have to feel guilty about the whole thing but pretending that they were in the right to do so is pretty stupid.

That aside, I believe the IGMC, coupled with the release of MV and support issues from both of those areas pushed the whole 'releasing 2k' on the site out of their minds. They have been pretty damn busy in the last few months, after all.
I am absolutely thankful and happy for archeia and cherry's work on bringing 2k/3 to the western world, being able to legally pay for this is amazing.
I am also really thankful for the people who unnoficially translated it to English and sparked the fire of RPG Making back in the days. Their curiosity and passion, completely devoid of any commercial interest, was able to create communities that would last to this day. There is an option today, now. The unnoficial translation is no longer the only option. The end of an era, the beginning of another one. (Or is it? I've yet to see any people post anything 2k/3 related at all on RMW's forums >____________> i wanna see new 2k/3 games from those guys!)
The 524 is for 524 Stone Crabs
(Or is it? I've yet to see any people post anything 2k/3 related at all on RMW's forums >____________> i wanna see new 2k/3 games from those guys!)

Too many HD generation newbs on that board, that is why.