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THE BAD END
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
LockeZ
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CloseAn ending that's the result of a path the player actually chooses isn't a "bad ending," I don't think, just a different ending. I actually love the alternate ending you can get 2/3 of the way through the game in Suikoden 2. I think it's probably the best ending, in fact! The story ends in an unexpected and untraditional way but I found it extremely satisfying. You stand up to everyone who wants to control and manipulate you, go against the world's expectations, and carve your own path to happiness. Nothing against the "real" ending, but the quick ending was the most interesting.
The type of "bad ending" that annoys me is when it's based on shit that's completely arbitrary. Later in Suikoden 2, you flag yourself for a bad ending if you don't press X at a specific split-second (when nothing is prompting you). In Disgaea, killing your own party members with AOE attacks is extremely easy to do and seemingly results in no penalty since they revive after the battle, except at the end of the game it secretly gives you a bad ending. In FF9 you miss out on a chunk of the ending if you didn't collect 13 hidden coins scattered around the globe for some trivial, non-plot-related sidequest.
There's no link between these actions and the extremely negative result you get, and in several cases you can't go back and get the good ending without playing the entire game over. It's like the Zodiac Spear in FF12 except even worse. At least with the Zodiac Spear, the worst thing that happens is you feel like you missed out on some completionism and some extra power. With the bad endings, the game is telling you that you failed to really beat it. That's way worse. It feels like the entire time you played the game was wasted. It feels almost exactly like a Game Over screen, except somehow even more patronizing.
There are definitely games where this type of bad ending is used properly. The bad ending in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is similarly telling you that you failed to really beat the game. But the reason it's telling you so is because you actually did fail to really beat the game. The different endings in Super Metroid work the same way - which one you get is based directly on how well you played. The taunting, incomplete endings in these games are both a clue that you missed something and an incentive to complete the harder challenges.
The type of "bad ending" that annoys me is when it's based on shit that's completely arbitrary. Later in Suikoden 2, you flag yourself for a bad ending if you don't press X at a specific split-second (when nothing is prompting you). In Disgaea, killing your own party members with AOE attacks is extremely easy to do and seemingly results in no penalty since they revive after the battle, except at the end of the game it secretly gives you a bad ending. In FF9 you miss out on a chunk of the ending if you didn't collect 13 hidden coins scattered around the globe for some trivial, non-plot-related sidequest.
There's no link between these actions and the extremely negative result you get, and in several cases you can't go back and get the good ending without playing the entire game over. It's like the Zodiac Spear in FF12 except even worse. At least with the Zodiac Spear, the worst thing that happens is you feel like you missed out on some completionism and some extra power. With the bad endings, the game is telling you that you failed to really beat it. That's way worse. It feels like the entire time you played the game was wasted. It feels almost exactly like a Game Over screen, except somehow even more patronizing.
There are definitely games where this type of bad ending is used properly. The bad ending in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night is similarly telling you that you failed to really beat the game. But the reason it's telling you so is because you actually did fail to really beat the game. The different endings in Super Metroid work the same way - which one you get is based directly on how well you played. The taunting, incomplete endings in these games are both a clue that you missed something and an incentive to complete the harder challenges.
author=LockeZ
In FF9 you miss out on a chunk of the ending if you didn't collect 13 hidden coins scattered around the globe for some trivial, non-plot-related sidequest.
This isn't true.
author=Feldschlacht IVauthor=LockeZThis isn't true.
In FF9 you miss out on a chunk of the ending if you didn't collect 13 hidden coins scattered around the globe for some trivial, non-plot-related sidequest.
Yes, it is. Having Cinna's Hammer in your inventory, an item you get from Queen Stella in Treno for giving her all thirteen stellazzio, gives you an extended ending sequence. Fortunately, LockeZ is wrong about this not being completible after a certain point in time. Without the hammer, you can't get Ark, Dagger's ultimate Eidolon, which you don't need for the extended ended, but I thought you might like to know what the hammer is useful for. You get Ark from Pumice, which needs to be synthesized from two pumice pieces. There are three places you can get the pumice piece. One of them is only available disc three. If miss it, you can only get a second piece by fighting Ozma in the Chocobo Air Garden and praying it's among his random drops. Once you have the hammer and two pumice pieces, you go to Memoria at the Iifa Tree. There's a place where Quina thinks there's water and starts swimming. After s/he's done, search the area and you'll find the optional boss, Hades. He's almost as hard as Ozma. If you beat him, he'll agree to synthesize for you. Get the pumice from him and you'll be able to summon Ark.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah. The other two I mentioned are the ones you can't go back and do. FF9's you can, at least.
On the other hand, the game doesn't even give you any indication that you missed part of the ending. You would never know you got a "bad ending." I... guess that's better, at least to me? On the plus side, you don't feel like a piece of shit when you beat the game. On the minus side, you're missing out on a really cool scene and have no way of realizing it. But at that point, because the ending is designed to still be satisfying without it, I guess it's not any different than a hidden scene anywhere else in the game?
On the other hand, the game doesn't even give you any indication that you missed part of the ending. You would never know you got a "bad ending." I... guess that's better, at least to me? On the plus side, you don't feel like a piece of shit when you beat the game. On the minus side, you're missing out on a really cool scene and have no way of realizing it. But at that point, because the ending is designed to still be satisfying without it, I guess it's not any different than a hidden scene anywhere else in the game?
Yeah, I wouldn't call the short ending a bad ending by any stretch of the imagination. I would actually call the long ending a bonus ending.
author=piano
Yes, it is. Having Cinna's Hammer in your inventory, an item you get from Queen Stella in Treno for giving her all thirteen stellazzio, gives you an extended ending sequence.
No, what I meant was (aside from the already mentioned fact that it's not missable), it's hardly a 'chunk'. It's barely a scene, and it's actually what, a line or so? It's the most inconsequential consequence ever. To call the the 'default' ending you obtain without the hammer the 'bad ending' or even a relatively lacking one seems totally wack, homie.
The extra scene you get is so minor it's like an easter egg within an easter egg.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
It's more than one line, isn't it? It's a big chunk of the ending of the play that your party performs at the beginning of the game. I can't remember how much but I thought it was a couple entire scenes.
It's just a few extra lines in that play at the end, which while a little entertaining, really has nothing to do with the ending, closure of the story, or the plot at large.
Unless you really liked 'I Want To Be Your Canary', you're not missing anything narrative or theme wise without it.
Unless you really liked 'I Want To Be Your Canary', you're not missing anything narrative or theme wise without it.
Desertopa
775
I can confirm that after all the shit I went through to get that scene, the whole thing was so inconsequential that it was basically over before I even realized it was happening. I am not about to forget that feeling of being ripped off.
There are two games I've played which made extensive use of bad endings where I felt like it really improved the tone of the game. In Fate/Stay Night, there are about twenty bad endings for every good ending in the game, but the endings follow quickly upon making the relevant choices, so you don't have to worry constantly about whether you screwed yourself over in the past and are just waiting to find out. It adds a sense of tension to the choices, and reinforces the idea that the protagonists are walking a razor's edge. As a visual novel choices are the only interactivity it has, so you'd think that this style would be a major feature of the medium, but in fact, the only other game I've played which carried off the same effect was Radiant Historia, a JRPG. The story hinged on a time travel/timeline hopping mechanic, with countless different points where the protagonist has to make decisions which may lead to disaster and may only be resolvable with knowledge or resources from other timelines, and as a result, all the "bad ends" actually do occur over the course of the game in the protagonist's personal timeline. The whole story is built around the idea that only an extremely narrow line through time leads to the desired result.
Not all games are as mechanically suited to it, but I really like the idea of using bad ends this way. Having bad endings which are more numerous than the good endings (but without giving the player the chance to get locked into them) helps cultivate the sense that the odds are stacked against the protagonists, and they have to be really careful about their choices.
There are two games I've played which made extensive use of bad endings where I felt like it really improved the tone of the game. In Fate/Stay Night, there are about twenty bad endings for every good ending in the game, but the endings follow quickly upon making the relevant choices, so you don't have to worry constantly about whether you screwed yourself over in the past and are just waiting to find out. It adds a sense of tension to the choices, and reinforces the idea that the protagonists are walking a razor's edge. As a visual novel choices are the only interactivity it has, so you'd think that this style would be a major feature of the medium, but in fact, the only other game I've played which carried off the same effect was Radiant Historia, a JRPG. The story hinged on a time travel/timeline hopping mechanic, with countless different points where the protagonist has to make decisions which may lead to disaster and may only be resolvable with knowledge or resources from other timelines, and as a result, all the "bad ends" actually do occur over the course of the game in the protagonist's personal timeline. The whole story is built around the idea that only an extremely narrow line through time leads to the desired result.
Not all games are as mechanically suited to it, but I really like the idea of using bad ends this way. Having bad endings which are more numerous than the good endings (but without giving the player the chance to get locked into them) helps cultivate the sense that the odds are stacked against the protagonists, and they have to be really careful about their choices.
