HINT-GIVING ITEMS IN PUZZLE-HEAVY GAMES
Posts
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
For almost all players of puzzle games, their enjoyment in a game comes from overcoming challenges. There's no satisfaction in getting past a puzzle if you didn't actually solve it. If there's no challenge, if the game solves its own puzzles while I watch, then I feel no sense of accomplishment.
However, I totally understand that some players are better at puzzles than others, and that it's frustrating, not fun, to get stuck for hours. Unlike other challenges, you can't practice until you get better, or grind until you get stronger, or retry until you get lucky. You just have to find the thing you missed. And so I understand why The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds included the hint goggles, an item that tells you how to solve any puzzle in the game.
But I still fucking hate those stupid hint goggles, and they ruin the game for me.
I'm fine with there being difficulty settings in a game, and I'm fine with those settings applying to puzzles as well as combat. But I'm not fine with designers removing all the challenge entirely for everyone - forcing everyone into easy mode. That's what the hint goggles do. If Nintendo would just let people choose between easy mode and hard mode when they start playing, and made hard mode apply to puzzles as well as combat, it would have worked so much better.
Functionally, the hint goggles work like a togglable easy mode setting. But the difference is they're not presented that way to the player. They're found in a treasure chest and equipped like the hookshot or boomerang. They're presented as a tool that's just as valid a way to solve puzzles as any other tool. And so, psychologically, it makes solving the puzzles with the hookshot or boomerang far less satisfying, because instead of feeling like you're good at the game, it feels like you're just not making use of the puzzle-solving tools you're given. It's like not using the shield or not picking up health refills - instead of feeling like you're beating a harder version of the game, it just feels like you're playing badly.
Someone was trying to explain to me that the hint goggles were perfect and that a difficulty setting would ruin the game for a variety of reasons that sounded like bullshit to me, but I'd love to hear an explanation of this viewpoint from someone capable of expressing their thoughts more coherently.
My counterpoint to him was that a difficulty setting can change any aspect of the game you can imagine, as long as that aspect makes the game more or less difficult. It doesn't have to just be numerical changes to combat, nor would that be appropriate for a game like Zelda where the combat is only a portion of the challenge. It would probably be appropriate for a game like Zelda to have multiple difficulty sliders - one for puzzles and one for combat - since many players only have trouble with one of the two. A "hard puzzle mode" that was togglable in the menu that disabled the hint goggles would not only be plausible but would be extremely appropriate for a puzzle game like Zelda or Portal, since the hint goggles do undeniably make all the puzzles easier. Normal mode could play like the game currently does, while easy mode also illuminates the next object that must be interacted with to solve the puzzle.
The player's mindset when choosing a difficulty setting is different than their mindset when choosing equipment and talent upgrades and assigning skill points. You feel like a better or smarter player if you become stronger through your choices in those aspects of gameplay, but you feel like a worse player if you become stronger by choosing a lower difficulty setting. There's no logical reason for this except for the way they're presented - picking the perfect stat build in Dragon Age is presented as a challenge to be overcome, while the difficulty setting isn't. The hint goggles in A Link Between Worlds aren't a puzzle to solve but they're also not a difficulty setting - they're somewhere in between. Finding the right place to use them isn't particularly challenging but it's still presented in a way that feels like exploration and discovery. As a result the player feels encouraged to use them to find the hidden hint ghosts, the same way they're encouraged to find the hidden squid babies.
The hint goggles are presented like a power-up, like a heart container or a bigger bomb bag, that players should be expected to use once they get. But while the game's combat is designed to still be challenging and satisfying even if the player finds the power-ups, the game's puzzles are designed with the assumption that the player isn't using the hint ghosts, and using them feels like skipping challenges instead of overcoming them. This bad feeling might be necessary for novice players, but should ideally be limited as much as possible.
Link Between Worlds charges you a "play coin" every time you use the hint goggles, which you get by carrying your 3DS around with you in sleep mode. 1 coin every 100 steps, up to 10 coins a day. The play coins end up being a joke since the player almost certainly will have more than enough to use the hint goggles on every single puzzle in the game, especially if they are a novice who plays slowly. To talk for a minute about a different situation, I think fixing this issue would actually make the game fun for novice players without affecting expert ones. If there were five or ten hint coins in the game and they were hidden in secret chests throughout Hyrule, that would actually be really cool. It would make the player feel like even when they got stuck and used the hint goggles, they still solved a puzzle to get past that point, it was just a different puzzle. Giving players that feeling of "I figured it out!" is super important - it's the one way that puzzle games provide fun. Allowing players to use the hint goggles in a way that felt satisfying instead of just neutral would be tremendously beneficial. This is what I think Nintendo was actually going for by making them be a usable tool in the game instead of a menu setting, but the infinite currency that's obtained by not playing zelda caused it to fall flat.
Sorry for the giant wall of text! I'm interested to hear what other people think about players having problems with puzzles and needing hints, other players having problems with hints and needing puzzles, and how you reconcile those needs.
However, I totally understand that some players are better at puzzles than others, and that it's frustrating, not fun, to get stuck for hours. Unlike other challenges, you can't practice until you get better, or grind until you get stronger, or retry until you get lucky. You just have to find the thing you missed. And so I understand why The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds included the hint goggles, an item that tells you how to solve any puzzle in the game.
But I still fucking hate those stupid hint goggles, and they ruin the game for me.
I'm fine with there being difficulty settings in a game, and I'm fine with those settings applying to puzzles as well as combat. But I'm not fine with designers removing all the challenge entirely for everyone - forcing everyone into easy mode. That's what the hint goggles do. If Nintendo would just let people choose between easy mode and hard mode when they start playing, and made hard mode apply to puzzles as well as combat, it would have worked so much better.
Functionally, the hint goggles work like a togglable easy mode setting. But the difference is they're not presented that way to the player. They're found in a treasure chest and equipped like the hookshot or boomerang. They're presented as a tool that's just as valid a way to solve puzzles as any other tool. And so, psychologically, it makes solving the puzzles with the hookshot or boomerang far less satisfying, because instead of feeling like you're good at the game, it feels like you're just not making use of the puzzle-solving tools you're given. It's like not using the shield or not picking up health refills - instead of feeling like you're beating a harder version of the game, it just feels like you're playing badly.
Someone was trying to explain to me that the hint goggles were perfect and that a difficulty setting would ruin the game for a variety of reasons that sounded like bullshit to me, but I'd love to hear an explanation of this viewpoint from someone capable of expressing their thoughts more coherently.
My counterpoint to him was that a difficulty setting can change any aspect of the game you can imagine, as long as that aspect makes the game more or less difficult. It doesn't have to just be numerical changes to combat, nor would that be appropriate for a game like Zelda where the combat is only a portion of the challenge. It would probably be appropriate for a game like Zelda to have multiple difficulty sliders - one for puzzles and one for combat - since many players only have trouble with one of the two. A "hard puzzle mode" that was togglable in the menu that disabled the hint goggles would not only be plausible but would be extremely appropriate for a puzzle game like Zelda or Portal, since the hint goggles do undeniably make all the puzzles easier. Normal mode could play like the game currently does, while easy mode also illuminates the next object that must be interacted with to solve the puzzle.
The player's mindset when choosing a difficulty setting is different than their mindset when choosing equipment and talent upgrades and assigning skill points. You feel like a better or smarter player if you become stronger through your choices in those aspects of gameplay, but you feel like a worse player if you become stronger by choosing a lower difficulty setting. There's no logical reason for this except for the way they're presented - picking the perfect stat build in Dragon Age is presented as a challenge to be overcome, while the difficulty setting isn't. The hint goggles in A Link Between Worlds aren't a puzzle to solve but they're also not a difficulty setting - they're somewhere in between. Finding the right place to use them isn't particularly challenging but it's still presented in a way that feels like exploration and discovery. As a result the player feels encouraged to use them to find the hidden hint ghosts, the same way they're encouraged to find the hidden squid babies.
The hint goggles are presented like a power-up, like a heart container or a bigger bomb bag, that players should be expected to use once they get. But while the game's combat is designed to still be challenging and satisfying even if the player finds the power-ups, the game's puzzles are designed with the assumption that the player isn't using the hint ghosts, and using them feels like skipping challenges instead of overcoming them. This bad feeling might be necessary for novice players, but should ideally be limited as much as possible.
Link Between Worlds charges you a "play coin" every time you use the hint goggles, which you get by carrying your 3DS around with you in sleep mode. 1 coin every 100 steps, up to 10 coins a day. The play coins end up being a joke since the player almost certainly will have more than enough to use the hint goggles on every single puzzle in the game, especially if they are a novice who plays slowly. To talk for a minute about a different situation, I think fixing this issue would actually make the game fun for novice players without affecting expert ones. If there were five or ten hint coins in the game and they were hidden in secret chests throughout Hyrule, that would actually be really cool. It would make the player feel like even when they got stuck and used the hint goggles, they still solved a puzzle to get past that point, it was just a different puzzle. Giving players that feeling of "I figured it out!" is super important - it's the one way that puzzle games provide fun. Allowing players to use the hint goggles in a way that felt satisfying instead of just neutral would be tremendously beneficial. This is what I think Nintendo was actually going for by making them be a usable tool in the game instead of a menu setting, but the infinite currency that's obtained by not playing zelda caused it to fall flat.
Sorry for the giant wall of text! I'm interested to hear what other people think about players having problems with puzzles and needing hints, other players having problems with hints and needing puzzles, and how you reconcile those needs.
I think the Hint Coin idea would be a cool idea! I'm not huge on puzzles (because I'm terrible at them XD) but I played the first two Professor Layton games, and liked how you had to use Hint Coins to unlock hints, but they wouldn't just tell you the answer or even make it obvious (generally). The first hint would be really vague, and then the second hint would be more specific, while the last one would generally give away or almost give away the twist.
That really worked for me, as sometimes I just needed a nudge in the right direction while other times I was completely clueless.
That really worked for me, as sometimes I just needed a nudge in the right direction while other times I was completely clueless.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
How did you get the coins? How did it limit them? What was the interface like for using them? Did the ability to use the coins seem like part of the puzzle, or more of a metagame option?
If I remember correctly, they were hidden in little nooks and crannies with little to no visual clue that anything was there. You had to play a little game with the developer and poke suspicious windows and objects with your stylus, hoping coins would be there. I must admit, perhaps not the best way to earn them, but they did allow you to exit a puzzle and go hunting for them if you were really stuck.
I believe the only limit on them was the amount that were stashed in the game. As finding all of them wasn't super easy (for me, at least), I didn't feel like I ever had a huge excess of them, but that may have been because I didn't look as hard for them if I had a nice handful of them saved up.
The ability to use the coins was a bit metagame-y, now that you mention it. Because they became an option in every puzzle, I guess I started not thinking about them as odd. I believe there was a tab you tapped to bring up the option to use them.
It's been several years since I've played these games. Anyone with a fresh take (or a better memory) have any more info on them?
I believe the only limit on them was the amount that were stashed in the game. As finding all of them wasn't super easy (for me, at least), I didn't feel like I ever had a huge excess of them, but that may have been because I didn't look as hard for them if I had a nice handful of them saved up.
The ability to use the coins was a bit metagame-y, now that you mention it. Because they became an option in every puzzle, I guess I started not thinking about them as odd. I believe there was a tab you tapped to bring up the option to use them.
It's been several years since I've played these games. Anyone with a fresh take (or a better memory) have any more info on them?
Honestly, I don't mind hint items as long as they're completely optional and adequately explained. Sometimes you just need a hint or two.
Tiers of hints are good, too. Like a very small hint that you can choose to expand on if you want. Sometimes all you need is that one small tip to get the brain working.
Tiers of hints are good, too. Like a very small hint that you can choose to expand on if you want. Sometimes all you need is that one small tip to get the brain working.
The hint coins weren't really limited as you could save, throw down three (the maximum you can spend on each puzzle), write down the hints and reload...
An idea for exploration puzzles could be if you had multiple ways to get past obstacles, with the higher level skills or more out of the way treasures being able to get past obstacles more easily. So basically, allowing you to grind/farm to help you overcome puzzles as well.
PS: I never knew the hint goggles even existed - I missed them completely and no guide I looked on ever mentioned them.
An idea for exploration puzzles could be if you had multiple ways to get past obstacles, with the higher level skills or more out of the way treasures being able to get past obstacles more easily. So basically, allowing you to grind/farm to help you overcome puzzles as well.
PS: I never knew the hint goggles even existed - I missed them completely and no guide I looked on ever mentioned them.
Yeah, that's how the hint coins in Layton worked, Unity. I think I would have preferred the player just being given a set number of them for each portion of the game--maybe ten or so, and you would never be able to get more than that. It was a little annoying stabbing the screen with the stylus over and over again. I'd like it even more if I could trade them all just to solve those damn slide puzzles, where the hints are most meaningless anyway.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Finding every hidden chest but missing the hint goggles. Isn't it ironic, don't you think? It's like rai-ee-ain on your wedding day.
Pro tip for game designers: don't hide the hint-giving feature, don't make players explore and search for that shit, the people who need it are the ones who aren't willing or able to do that. Holy shit that's basic, Nintendo.
Pro tip for game designers: don't hide the hint-giving feature, don't make players explore and search for that shit, the people who need it are the ones who aren't willing or able to do that. Holy shit that's basic, Nintendo.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Honestly, if you're not cool with at least brute force the hint coins by tapping a bunch of places on the screen, probably you should not be playing a game that involves puzzles in the first place.
I tend not to care for the automatically-bestowed hint options in puzzle games; I dislike the ability to just breeze through it. I suppose if it were some kind of option to be switched on and off, it would work better for me.
But then, I'm the type of person who is good at Layton and only occasionally need hints when I have no idea what the creator is trying to communicate. (That hasn't actually happened in Layton that I recall, but is infamous in some other games.)
I tend not to care for the automatically-bestowed hint options in puzzle games; I dislike the ability to just breeze through it. I suppose if it were some kind of option to be switched on and off, it would work better for me.
But then, I'm the type of person who is good at Layton and only occasionally need hints when I have no idea what the creator is trying to communicate. (That hasn't actually happened in Layton that I recall, but is infamous in some other games.)
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=SoozDepends now it's presented. I'm imagining them being like a "hidden pictures" puzzle, which is very appropriate. However it would be dumb and obnoxious for them to be unlocked by doing random tasks that aren't puzzles. In a puzzle game you should advance the game by doing puzzles.
Honestly, if you're not cool with at least brute force the hint coins by tapping a bunch of places on the screen, probably you should not be playing a game that involves puzzles in the first place.
In Zelda you unlock hint coins by taking your 3DS with you while jogging. What the actual fuck.
Might be because several games for 3DS have use for those play coins - Save the Crown being probably the prime example of the chance to blow through your coins in record time.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Sated
Hint items are silly. If you're not good enough to finish the game, you don't deserve to finish the game. If the game is good and you care about it, get better at it. If not, why do you care about finishing?
I disagree: there is a long tradition of puzzles in games that obviously made sense to the developers, but do not actually align with Earthling logic. Or, in something like the Layton series, there could be certain kinds of puzzles which a particular player just doesn't do well with. Situations like that make hint items essential.
author=Sooz
Honestly, if you're not cool with at least brute force the hint coins by tapping a bunch of places on the screen, probably you should not be playing a game that involves puzzles in the first place.
It's been a while since I've played, but isn't that the only way to get hint coins--tapping on everything like some crazed woodpecker? It just seemed like an unnecessary step. I get the idea they were going for--you're looking for clues--but, if that's the case, there should be more substance there (like, you know, actually finding clues that contribute to the overall narrative). Again, it's been a while since I've played a Layton game, so I might be misremembering; sorry if that's the case.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
author=Link_2112
Just don't use the Hint Goggles? I'm confused.
Counterpoint: my thirty paragraphs of explanation in the OP of why they make players feel shitty.
author=Sated
Hint items are silly. If you're not good enough to finish the game, you don't deserve to finish the game. If the game is good and you care about it, get better at it. If not, why do you care about finishing?
EDIT:
I don't play bullet-hell games because I'm not good enough at them. I don't expect some sort of item to help me get around that because I know that being good at them is a talent; I know that I suck at them, I know that I don't deserve to finish them, so I don't play them. It's the last part of the sentence I just wrote that results in developers adding "hint items" (or equivalents for other genres); they want people to play their game and so add these items to help players get through, not realising that all they do is dilute what makes their game good in order to make it more attractive to the "average" person. It's a race to the bottom and it should be discouraged.
Actually, I think it's the developer's job that, if he doesn't want the player to be assisted at difficult points, he should motivate the player to do better so that the game can be overcome. The developer isn't supposed to beat the player.
Also, I hate the attitude of players that any form of content that makes the game easier is "dumbing down" the game and ruins what the game is about. This is especially jarring when the complaints regard a completely luck-based aspect of the game or the need to look up guides for hidden obstacles that can't possibly be forseen.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Housekeeping
It's been a while since I've played, but isn't that the only way to get hint coins--tapping on everything like some crazed woodpecker? It just seemed like an unnecessary step. I get the idea they were going for--you're looking for clues--but, if that's the case, there should be more substance there (like, you know, actually finding clues that contribute to the overall narrative). Again, it's been a while since I've played a Layton game, so I might be misremembering; sorry if that's the case.
Well, they're not clues to the actual plot, they're just a bonus help mechanic. It's usually pretty easy to figure out where they're hidden, since there's a logic to it most of the time- the hiding places are usually little detail bits of the landscape like windows, boxes, etc.: The same kind of thing that could be harboring a hidden puzzle, so you would be clicking around anyhow. It's simple enough to get most of the coins by just looking for whatever might be interesting-looking; you only have to tap randomly if you're a crazy person like me who wants ALL THE COINS to hoard like Smaug with a DS.
Plus you usually get a cute animal mascot that'll point out where a coin is later on, so it's even easier.
I harbor no shame in being Smaug. Whenever a game tells me, "Hey, there are X number of Y's to collect," all of a sudden I have a keen interest in algebra.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
So this isn't just Layton Talk, what are good options for hinting?
In several games, I've seen the option of an NPC who could dispense hints, usually for a price.
I'm not sure how the hint goggles work, but would it be better if, instead of equipment, it were a setting that could be turned on or off at will?
In several games, I've seen the option of an NPC who could dispense hints, usually for a price.
I'm not sure how the hint goggles work, but would it be better if, instead of equipment, it were a setting that could be turned on or off at will?

















