OF GAMES, REPRESENTATION, AND WOMEN'S CHEEKBONES

author=WetMattos
That, or both me and Solitayre are pointing out that the Liberal approach to this conundrum probably won't do us any good, for it does not aim to correct preexisting power imbalances in favour of the stigmatized - which is a central point in most Social Justice thinking - and that we might have to take sides if Social Justice is what we want to debate.

It's fair enough if Soli, like yourself, feels strongly about these issues, and he has all the right in the world to call people out on it. It's just that the idea of him outright banning people, or changing the rules to say, idk, NO dissenting opinions allowed (even if said dissenting opinions include stuff like mentioning how they're against sexuality) that, quite frankly, scares me.

author=Yellow Magic
It's fair enough if Soli, like yourself, feels strongly about these issues, and he has all the right in the world to call people out on it. It's just that the idea of him outright banning people, or changing the rules to say, idk, NO dissenting opinions allowed (even if said dissenting opinions include stuff like mentioning how they're against sexuality) that, quite frankly, scares me.

I can't ban anyone or change any rules, nor would I ever implement a rule that says 'you must agree with me or be banned.'

author=SnowOwl
Please stop it with the whole martyr thing, it's not helping any sort of discussion. Act like adults. If you want respect, don't act like a coddled baby needing protection.
And yes, I do believe that each and every person has the right to an opinion, as long as they state it in a respectful manner. If you don't, you're the one in the wrong.

I think you need to do some serious reassessing if, in the face of what people like WetMattos are bringing up, this is your response.

I'm pretty sure people are reading into Soli's posts more than what he'se said. I've seen nothing about banning people and I know for fact that he's super supportive of NOT doing that, so people, stop putting those kinds of words in his mouth. Soli definitely is not supporting an all and all ban or silence of anyone with different opinions. Hell, he's one of the mods who has been very supportive of not restricting things too much.

If anyone's all for banning (words, 'code' and, yes, people) it'd be me, so chill peeps.

Soli, I just see a difference between willful and deliberate snidery and someone just sharing their belief without the intention of hurting others, is all. Certain people did the dirty - using code and deliberately skirting the site laws to technically be 'okay' - while someone else just commented their own beliefs - without the intention of causing harm, just to be part of the conversation. It's my thought the the first is definitely not okay, but that the second was... not okay exactly (more the fact that person thinks that than the fact they shared - but then without them sharing there's no way to correct that kind of thinking or talk it to bits and pieces - like I tried to do when talking about all the other kinds of sins that are worthy of death and how silly the idea of it is (and how people shouldn't get upset about being called a sin when literally a hundred other stupid stuff is considered a sin too)) but worth exploration and talking about - not the lambasting that was given.

That said, you and I have differences of opinions on that, but we can both agree that the rules need work and that how it's currently running isn't going to work with topics like this anymore. It hasn't since #GG started up and certain bodies of the site began only posting in threads like this, shitting them up and causing mayhem.

Sure, except that almost every time they're used on this site, in topics like this it's a in the capacity of an implied insult.

That's great, except I wasn't being transphobic. I honestly do not care about a person's gender and if someone says that they identify as something then that's that. That is what they are, in my book. (Granted, I slip up when referring sometimes - especially when I've known them as another gender before-hand, but that is a constant battle and something I know about and am working on.)

Please don't presume to think you understand how my mind works. Yes, I was brought up by highly religious people, but my own grandmother is gay as the day is long, and I've never been one to care about other peoples' opinions when it comes to deciding things and how I react to them. So, quite frankly, I'm not being -phobic in any way, shape or form. I will call people out for bullshit, though, regardless of race, gender, sexuality or whatever.

I'm well aware of my own biases. Comes from examining yourself and asking yourself questions about your own state of mind and why you react to things a certain way. Something I've been doing since I was a child, when I first realised I wasn't exactly normal (mental condition) and again when I realised my sexuality was quite different. I searched for my own answers and examined my own thoughts because I had no-one else but myself to do so with. I highly recommend more people do that, btw.

Examine your own biases and why they exist.
Challenge them and understand them.
No-one is perfect, no, but understanding yourself can help you move forward and become a more rounded person.
Never presume that what you know of yourself is true for others. Even if you share the same experiences there will be differences and you can never 100% know another person no matter how much they tell you about yourself (but that's just half the fun!).

You alluded to that being a default position for someone who was brought up from a certain kind of social environment and that as such they are unlikely to see what they do as transphobic... but they are. That's pretty much what you insinuated. And you may be right about that a lot of the time, but there are always going to be cases where that is not true.

I'll bet my left pinky that you were raised in a culture that was transphobic and have been exposed to transphobic ideas for decades. A few years of being friends with trans people or typing the words "I support them 100%" does not change that.

That sounds rather accusatory. 'You come from a transphobic culture so saying x doesn't change the fact you have transphobic ideals ingrained in you. You're transphobic, you just don't realise it.'

plus "I have friends from X group, therefore I can't possibly be X-ist/phobic" is like... that's a great way to open your mouth a mile wide for both feet to fit into.

And that is insinuating that my statement of having friends among such group means that I put my foot in my mouth.

As I said, while that can be true for a lot of people, not everyone is unaware of those hidden biases and have worked through them over their lives to get rid of them. There are always outliers and exceptions - in this case there are more and more every day as society slowly learns to get over those old prejudices, but if you only look for those who are of the first group, you might never find the ones who aren't and thus assume the world is built only one way.

Let me clear it up for future interactions with me, personally: you will know when I think you are saying/doing something transphobic (or whatever else comes up). I will spell out in a giant text wall (see this earlier post) and I'll quote exactly what I'm objecting to and will tell you why I feel that way.

I go out of my way to avoid implying or insinuating things since I'm a big fan of direct communication, especially when talking about like, idk, "serious" topics.

idk if I can be more specific but here goes

Thing I object to:

You were talking with someone who is trans, who did not call you transphobic but was still arguing with you and outright said she felt you didn't understand what LGBT people experience.

author = ElectricalKat
I don't think you understand what LGBT people experience if you really think saying what that poster said isn't supposed to construe as outright insulting.

Your response was about how hey, you did know b/c you fall under that umbrella. Alright, cool. That's true. But then you went on to reassure someone who did not accuse you of being transphobic that your response did not indicate you were transphobic or hated her because you have trans friends and support trans people 100%.

No one said you were being transphobic. Or if they did, I missed it.

author= Liberty
And Kat, when I said I'm flexi-sexual, that means I'm bi-sexual. As in part of LGBT. So, your insinuation that I'm somehow against it? Very, very wrong.

You also claimed EletricalKat was insinuating that you were against LGBT people, which is also not what she said, for the record. Her claim was that you didn't understand it, which is not the same as saying you're a bigot.

I mean if you want my two cents on that interaction? This kind of inter-community politics is one of the reasons I don't use the word "queer" to refer to LGBTQIA+ people anymore and keep using the ever-growing alphabet soup label. This kind of inter-community bullshit is also why I don't put too much stock in the idea that there is a cohesive LGBT+ community, but instead we have very distinct groups with (sometimes) common shit they deal with. It'd be cool if those communities could work together in solidarity, but the reality is that oftentimes they don't, and thinking of them as a cohesive group can often sweep those issues under the rug.

I also am not a fan of when people try to lump the T issues into the LGB because there are such widespread problems of supposedly "accepting" lesbian or gay communities that are actively hostile to trans folks. Similarly, there's a lot of shit bi folks get from the L and the G and can you see where I'm coming from there? I'm not saying that you're doing anything like that right this moment, but I do think you won't understand trans issues the same way someone who is trans would, even though yes you do fall under the LGBT umbrella. This is not an accusation. I am not accusing you. This is only partially directed at you and is something I wanted to mention for the sake of anyone who happens to read this and might wonder why I'm all hackles raised about how you responded to EletricalKat here.

So let me reiterate: no one claimed you were transphobic. But when talking to someone who was trans you went out of your way to reassure her you were not transphobic because you have trans friends.

Anytime someone starts dropping their hypothetical friends to reassure someone they aren't going to do anything bigoted, it raises a red flag to me. It raised extra red flags because you're insisting you're not transphobic and talking about it as if this is some kind of personality trait or identity someone has.

So going back to what I actually said:

'You come from a transphobic culture so saying x doesn't change the fact you have transphobic ideals ingrained in you. You're transphobic, you just don't realise it.'

I did not say "saying x". I said that holding up your trans friends as proof you are not transphobic is not a good thing to do. I also said that it's better to think of potential bigotry as a process you can unlearn rather than a trait you have/don't have. Aside from that, yeah actually. I do think that pretty much everyone has internalized bs they might want to try and sort through, including transphobia.

This doesn't make them the scum of the earth, it makes them someone who had plenty of time and opporunity to learn shitty messages. Many times, people go through their lives without ever having to stop and question things like "what makes a woman a woman?" because they have the "obvious" answers they've heard their whole lives.

When you think of something like transphobia (or racism, or sexism, or ableism...you get the idea) as a trait someone has, when they're criticized for something they did or said it tends to feel like even more of a personal attack or that you're criticizing someone as a person. I don't think it's a stretch to say most people think of themselves as "basically good" and will go a long way to preserve that idea about themselves. And aruging the basic goodness or badness of a person hardly gets you anywhere in the long run, anyways.

So instead, I prefer to think about these things in terms of what people actually do. This is better with regards to me, personally, but also how I approach other people. When I think about myself, it's a lot easier to look at something I did/said/whatever and realize wow, maybe it wasn't that good. Why did I do that? How can I change this now that I'm aware of it? That kind of thinking is WAY LESS STRESSFUL than "if I said a Bad thing this means I'm a Bad Person".

can i like....can I clear that up anymore? Is this understandable? do I need to go on? You will know exactly what I'm hollerin about when I start hollerin

I am not hollering about you being transphobic rn, I'm hollerin about your use of trans friends to tell us you are not transphobic when no one said you were in the first place