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Solitayre
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Close'Intentions vs Impact' to me is getting into some 'death of the author' territory where you could find whole essays on the subject, and probably belongs in its own thread. And if you guys want to talk about that I think it would be a very interesting discussion that I'd probably want to take part in, but we should probably decouple it from this discussion.
Yes, I know this whole page was basically a derail already but we should try to keep some organization.
Yes, I know this whole page was basically a derail already but we should try to keep some organization.
author=Corfaisusauthor=WetMattosEverything. What do you mean? How is it applicable? How can one create in a way that properly reflects what their work says with what they mean to say to everyone who might come across it? How do we stop people from being people or creating what we don't want to see? Is there a time and a place for nudie pics?author=Corfaisus*sighs*author=WetMattosLet's discuss this.
I don't care about your intention, i care about impact.
Also, I've gone back and corrected my mistake.
Thanks for the redaction.
Very well. What is there to be discussed?
How do we make the world a better place for all?
When does the hurting stop?
In order.
1) I can't judge you for your intentions because i can't know of your intentions, but i do feel the impact of your actions. As such, i can only evaluate things on their consequences and means, but not in their intended ends.
2) Most relevant in social justice conversations, honestly i apply it to everything with good results. Specially in the "so, this is hurtful, and you might want to reconsider the way you help" way, since being mentally ill makes us very inviting to yoga inductions, apparently.
3) Oh, boy. Listening. Studying. Exploring. Making mistakes in controlled environments with people who are willing to be vulnerable to eventually suggest ways to circunvent them - like me, now. Making mistakes nonetheless, owning both intention and impact, and correcting oneself in face of criticism. Understanding that some people won't get it anyway, but that doesn't mean you must wholly ignore them. Understanding that different people have different stakes involved in some content, and how that affect them, both socially and individually, and being mindful of those differences.
4) This is a bit of a pitfall question. Do we stop people from creating things we don't want to see? No, we don't. Does wanting to limit the creation of perceived harmful content is a desire of 'stopping people from being people'? Not at all, because this is not the only way to be a person.
5) Negotiation goes a long way. Every person has their own time and place for nudies, and asking about it - and subsequently respecting their answers and reactions - works very well :3
6) Among other things, creating media that better reflect people's realities and their lived experiences, so we can change our cultural narrative about some groups.
7) Never. Pain is a part of human experience. Though some pains can be subsided with community effort and social change.
Anything else you feel like listening me on? :D
author=Solitayre
'Intentions vs Impact' to me is getting into some 'death of the author' territory where you could find whole essays on the subject, and probably belongs in its own thread. And if you guys want to talk about that I think it would be a very interesting discussion that I'd probably want to take part in, but we should probably decouple it from this discussion.
Yes, I know this whole page was basically a derail already but we should try to keep some organization.
At this point, i'm just cherishing the fact that we have been mostly civil, and fostering this position in hopes that the next time we enter a conversation about social justice, we have precedents on it :3
author=Yellow Magicauthor=Max McGeeI'm with Liberty on this one, in that I honestly don't see the harm in just changing a character's skin colour from white to anything and leaving everything else as is. +X% diversity without any real 'pandering'.
@Yellow_Magic:
As a professional writer I realize that this resembles mystical thinking, but to me, characters have an inherent truth to them. So no, white is not the "default" race for a character I think of. The default race for a character I think of is whatever race they are when I think of them. This is not something that I don't think about, exactly, but it's also very much not something that I plan ahead of time.
When my mind creates a character, it does so holistically. That character then has a race, a gender, an identity, maybe normative, maybe not, but in any case part of that character's holistic truth. I realize that this is...not a perfectly clear explanation. But thinking that anyone is anything by default is...kind of antithetical to the way I make art? Likewise, so is planning to have a "diverse" and "inclusive" cast...that's anathema to the way I create too. Characters don't exactly come from my brain fully formed, but they do come out with the basic shapes, race, gender, and so forth. There is no default.
The fact of thinking of a character that is a minority is not offensive to me, it's natural. It's the idea of planning in advance that X, Y, Z of your characters will be X, Y, Z minorities for the sake of being perceived as sufficiently "diverse" or "inclusive" to bow to political correctness that I find abhorrent, because it seems very dishonest.
That said, given about 80% of what's written in tumblry circles as critique of works that depict minorities, I totally understand why writers would want to sidestep the entire minefield of an issue by just writing people the same color they are. There doesn't seem to be any way of portraying female characters or whatever, minority x, that won't offend at least an overwhelmingly vocal minority. Look at arch-feminist Joss Whedon getting screamed off of twitter by a frothing mob of rabid radfems.
An individual is the sum of nature and nurture, their genes + their life experiences...one's race alone does not define them.
I'd like to see a game that offered you to do anything (and I mean anything). Sort of like Elder Scrolls on crack. Your character is designated as "male", "female" or "intersex" mainly for purposes of gameplay coupling. After designing your body, you can dress however you want, wear makeup, etc (but clothing doesn't always fit). You can also shave, crossdress, and even have lesbian relationships. I think this issue will diminish as gamers get used to the mindset that there are people different from the perfect skinny white people. Of course, they'll squawk for quite a while. But just as we don't humor bratty kids, we don't need to pander to these people. Just make it so they are pleased in other ways.
SnowOwl
5188
Wait, so if sexuality is a social construct, doesn't that mean that those church things where they repurpose homosexuals to be heterosexual is actually a thing that would work.
author=Corfaisus
If you want/need for things to get simple: my pee-pee yearns for a vagoo and boobles. If you got a pee-pee, that's okay, but I don't want to play with yours.
I still don't understand the counter argumentation to this point.
I find it hard to follow, mainly because it feels like the answers are starting at step 3.
(step 1 - acknowledging the now-status of an individual, step 2 - critically examining and perhaps questioning this standpoint and step 3 - offering an alternative way of approaching it and explaining it)
I realize we have slighty different perceptions of reality, and thus you lot may be engaged in concepts I am not.
But I'd say the thought that liking dicks or vaginas is a cultivated behaviour is not the standard view for many people. Not to mention that, regardless of how it came about, it will still remain as one's preference at this moment. Thus, you need to adress it from this view point to get across to the person of this viewpoint.
author=SnowOwl
Wait, so if sexuality is a social construct, doesn't that mean that those church things where they repurpose homosexuals to be heterosexual is actually a thing that would work.
I mean, define "work". It probably "works" because people are told that homosexuality is wrong, sinful, a slap in the face of God. If you tell someone to hate something long enough, they'll either listen to you, or either learn to hide it.
On a side note, I totally believe that a person's sexuality and sexual preferences can evolve over the course a lifetime. I don't know a ton about nature vs. nurture, sexuality as a social construct, or anything like that... but throughout life, a person's mentality changes. They become more (or less) open-minded, they become aware of things they didn't know about before, they have words they didn't have before, they find places and people they didn't know existed before. I think it'd be silly to assume that the way someone feels at 14 will necessarily be how they feel at 35, and that includes their sexuality and personal preferences.
emmych
817
author=SnowOwl
Wait, so if sexuality is a social construct, doesn't that mean that those church things where they repurpose homosexuals to be heterosexual is actually a thing that would work.
Sure, I'll bite on this one.
When people talk about things like sexuality and gender as social constructs, what we're talking about is heteronormativity -- the idea that being heterosexual is the default, "normal" thing to be -- and cisnormativity -- same deal, only replace heterosexual with cisgender.
People's genders and sexualities are very real things, but often times they are influenced by societal expectations. To use a personal example, I was convinced I was heterosexual until I was around 19 years old, and that I was cisgender until around last year. And this is despite, in hindsight, displaying some very not heterosexual behaviour and never really fitting the mold of being cis. This is an example of sexuality and gender as a social construct: I was taught that being straight and cis is Normal, so obviously that is what I had to be. I had never even considered that I could be queer or trans, because these were not valid options presented to me. It was only after some soul searching and learning about other things I could be that I ended up discovering who I truly was.
Reconditioning LGB folks to be straight is reinforcing that social construct, because the idea is the "cure" them and make them "normal."
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
In a perfect world we'd all be indiscriminately humping each other. I also just found out that I'm bisexual for liking women. Who knew? I must therefore be a woman.
Strange, I don't look or feel like a woman, whatever one of those are. Who am I? What's a name? Do I even exist?
I think I'm fictitious. Fuck it, I'm a dragon.
You do you, I just draw the line at totally discarding the reality of sex, gender and attraction to incriminate me for being cis-male, heterosexual and someone who can and seeks to acknowledge and understand the privileges that come with being on the "winning side" of the gene pool.
Also, there's a sizable gap between beauty and attraction that I don't think got through in the last page. Just because someone doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean they're calling you "ugly" or "some inhuman freak who'll never be accepted".
Strange, I don't look or feel like a woman, whatever one of those are. Who am I? What's a name? Do I even exist?
I think I'm fictitious. Fuck it, I'm a dragon.
You do you, I just draw the line at totally discarding the reality of sex, gender and attraction to incriminate me for being cis-male, heterosexual and someone who can and seeks to acknowledge and understand the privileges that come with being on the "winning side" of the gene pool.
Also, there's a sizable gap between beauty and attraction that I don't think got through in the last page. Just because someone doesn't find you attractive doesn't mean they're calling you "ugly" or "some inhuman freak who'll never be accepted".
Frankly, if you accept the fact that you find it horrible to think about being with someone of the opposite gender because you're gay, surely you can understand the fact that some people feel the same way about being with the same gender. You are attracted to your fellow gender? Good for you, but others ain't. It's really as simple as that. If you believe that homosexuality is a thing (because, let's face it, it is) then you have to also believe that straight is a thing. Because it also is.
People can be attracted to one person over another. They can be attracted to penis over vagina (or vice versa). They can be attracted to blue eyes and long legs or a muscly chest and brown, wavy hair. They can be attracted to a laugh, a smile, a frown, a dimple, the sound of a voice or the smell of a person. Those are all things that are different for each and every person. You might like smaller women who fit under your arm or taller women who look like they could lift a truck. You might like wiry men who have great reflexes or bulky men who make protein shakes and read Billy Shakes. It's all personal preference.
If you aren't attracted to hairy chests or breasts or green eyes or a certain type of sexual organ that is your preference. It doesn't give you the right to say that everyone must be attracted to others exactly as you are, though, just as it doesn't give them the right to say that you MUST be attracted to what they are.
If you maintain that gay is as natural as straight and that you are attracted to the same gender, then you must also maintain that there are people out there for whom the opposite is true. It's as simple as that. Seriously.
I'm pan - I could care less about the gender aspect, though I do lean more towards male than female (then again, it does depend on the person. There are some men out there I would never, ever, ever think about in a sexual manner and some women I would drop everything for.) For me it's about the person themselves, but I'm not stupid enough to think that just because that works for me it means that it will work for everyone. Because everyone is different. Everyone.
As Corfaisus said, there's a huge difference between 'You are female and I am not attracted to females' and 'hell naw, you freak, I wouldn't be seen dead as your partner'. When it comes to trans it is very confusing for both sides of the relationships. I've seen both sides of this kind of situation.
- One couple I know have been married for about 20 year before the then-husband realised that they were really a woman. Understandably, this caused some issues in the home because the wife had no notion that this was coming, had always known her then-husband as male and there was a lot of work to adjust accordingly. Even more-so since they have a young daughter. It took a lot of work. They split up for a while and while they're no longer together as a couple, they're still very close and share custody. The love is still there on both sides, but neither can compromise - Sandy is a woman in her heart and mind (and now body) and Lisa is straight as the day is long. Love doesn't always conquer all, sadly, but they are still very good friends and both adore their daughter and would do anything for her and each other. It's sad that two people who love each other so much can't be together because they no longer -fit- in their own minds, but they're still there for each other, still support each other and still care.
- The other couple aren't together anymore despite their trying. The then-wife had been hiding for years that they'd felt wrong in their own body - from everyone. The husband was a bit more flexible in his thinking so when his then-wife came out as a man, he supported him 100% and tried to do his best to keep things together. They went to counselling and tried to work for their relationship but it just fell apart around them. Jacob (the husband) just couldn't reconcile the idea of his then-wife being a man, and though he absolutely loved Liam, he just couldn't stay. So he left. And moved halfway across the world in order to get away. Last I heard Jacob was remarried to a wonderful woman. Liam has since found another half who adores him to bits. They're both happier as they are now than they were together - sometimes trying to make it work just isn't enough and there might be something better out there for both of them. In this case, there was.
Neither party should be trapped by a change in the person they love. They can try to get it to work and I'm sure there are couples out there who have successfully done so, but sometimes when things change the spark just goes. It's not something that is only seen in trans marriages - any change in a marriage can doom it, even if you try. An injury, a mental condition, a child, loss of a job, falling in love with someone else, an obsession, many many things can and have broken marriages. A lot of the time it's something as simple as the person you loved not being who you thought they were - and again, I'm not talking trans. There are many different ways people lie to each other or change over the course of time. People change and become incompatible. So when a big change like the realisation of a different gender comes about, it's sort of inevitable that there's going to be consequences to that change.
People are not and should not be forced to stay together when something changes between them, no matter how big or small that change is. Every day there are couples who fall apart because the spark is no longer there for whatever reason. That doesn't mean they should be condemned for their lack of desire - it's just the way some things fall out. Some stay with the one they love despite that lack of attraction and usually that ends pretty badly. Sometimes it gets better and they work through it but a lot of the time it ends in things like abuse, bad feelings and cruelty.
Sometimes it's better to just let go and move on to find someone who loves you for the you you have become. And one last time, I'm not just talking trans here.
One last thought - love is not always enough. You can't force someone to accept you even if they love you. Sometimes you just have to let them go - not only for them, but for yourself.
People can be attracted to one person over another. They can be attracted to penis over vagina (or vice versa). They can be attracted to blue eyes and long legs or a muscly chest and brown, wavy hair. They can be attracted to a laugh, a smile, a frown, a dimple, the sound of a voice or the smell of a person. Those are all things that are different for each and every person. You might like smaller women who fit under your arm or taller women who look like they could lift a truck. You might like wiry men who have great reflexes or bulky men who make protein shakes and read Billy Shakes. It's all personal preference.
If you aren't attracted to hairy chests or breasts or green eyes or a certain type of sexual organ that is your preference. It doesn't give you the right to say that everyone must be attracted to others exactly as you are, though, just as it doesn't give them the right to say that you MUST be attracted to what they are.
If you maintain that gay is as natural as straight and that you are attracted to the same gender, then you must also maintain that there are people out there for whom the opposite is true. It's as simple as that. Seriously.
I'm pan - I could care less about the gender aspect, though I do lean more towards male than female (then again, it does depend on the person. There are some men out there I would never, ever, ever think about in a sexual manner and some women I would drop everything for.) For me it's about the person themselves, but I'm not stupid enough to think that just because that works for me it means that it will work for everyone. Because everyone is different. Everyone.
As Corfaisus said, there's a huge difference between 'You are female and I am not attracted to females' and 'hell naw, you freak, I wouldn't be seen dead as your partner'. When it comes to trans it is very confusing for both sides of the relationships. I've seen both sides of this kind of situation.
- One couple I know have been married for about 20 year before the then-husband realised that they were really a woman. Understandably, this caused some issues in the home because the wife had no notion that this was coming, had always known her then-husband as male and there was a lot of work to adjust accordingly. Even more-so since they have a young daughter. It took a lot of work. They split up for a while and while they're no longer together as a couple, they're still very close and share custody. The love is still there on both sides, but neither can compromise - Sandy is a woman in her heart and mind (and now body) and Lisa is straight as the day is long. Love doesn't always conquer all, sadly, but they are still very good friends and both adore their daughter and would do anything for her and each other. It's sad that two people who love each other so much can't be together because they no longer -fit- in their own minds, but they're still there for each other, still support each other and still care.
- The other couple aren't together anymore despite their trying. The then-wife had been hiding for years that they'd felt wrong in their own body - from everyone. The husband was a bit more flexible in his thinking so when his then-wife came out as a man, he supported him 100% and tried to do his best to keep things together. They went to counselling and tried to work for their relationship but it just fell apart around them. Jacob (the husband) just couldn't reconcile the idea of his then-wife being a man, and though he absolutely loved Liam, he just couldn't stay. So he left. And moved halfway across the world in order to get away. Last I heard Jacob was remarried to a wonderful woman. Liam has since found another half who adores him to bits. They're both happier as they are now than they were together - sometimes trying to make it work just isn't enough and there might be something better out there for both of them. In this case, there was.
Neither party should be trapped by a change in the person they love. They can try to get it to work and I'm sure there are couples out there who have successfully done so, but sometimes when things change the spark just goes. It's not something that is only seen in trans marriages - any change in a marriage can doom it, even if you try. An injury, a mental condition, a child, loss of a job, falling in love with someone else, an obsession, many many things can and have broken marriages. A lot of the time it's something as simple as the person you loved not being who you thought they were - and again, I'm not talking trans. There are many different ways people lie to each other or change over the course of time. People change and become incompatible. So when a big change like the realisation of a different gender comes about, it's sort of inevitable that there's going to be consequences to that change.
People are not and should not be forced to stay together when something changes between them, no matter how big or small that change is. Every day there are couples who fall apart because the spark is no longer there for whatever reason. That doesn't mean they should be condemned for their lack of desire - it's just the way some things fall out. Some stay with the one they love despite that lack of attraction and usually that ends pretty badly. Sometimes it gets better and they work through it but a lot of the time it ends in things like abuse, bad feelings and cruelty.
Sometimes it's better to just let go and move on to find someone who loves you for the you you have become. And one last time, I'm not just talking trans here.
One last thought - love is not always enough. You can't force someone to accept you even if they love you. Sometimes you just have to let them go - not only for them, but for yourself.
emmych
817
It's great that people wanna talk about forcing people to be attracted to or be in relationships other people, but like... no one was arguing for that. I think literally everyone here can agree that forcing people who are not interested in each other to be together is a bad thing, and that forcing someone to stay in a relationship they are no longer comfortable with is also a bad thing. No one is going to be happy! It is unfair to the partner that doesn't want to be there!
Going back to the actual point I made: I was discussing that attraction and desire has not developed in a vacuum. There is a reason certain bodies are gendered in certain ways. There is a reason trans people are seen as "weird" or "undesirable". A lot of times, a preference you have may not be simply a preference: it is a product of societal conditioning wrt who acceptable partners are and who aren't acceptable.
Note that nothing about this is saying "if you identify as x you must date people REGARDLESS OF GENDER OR GENITAL CONFIGURATION," it is simply a request to sift out how much of your desires have been influenced by external forces, since this is literally a thing that happens to every single human being that is alive. It is entirely valid if your desires do not change after you have done this! But at least you'll know that you aren't writing off entire groups of people you'd otherwise be interested in because of some Thing you happened to pick up as you grew. Really, I can't see why someone WOULDN'T want to do this, since... yeah, either you end up where you started, or end up having some potential cool relationships with people you otherwise woulda written off because you weren't "supposed" to be attracted to them.
Going back to the actual point I made: I was discussing that attraction and desire has not developed in a vacuum. There is a reason certain bodies are gendered in certain ways. There is a reason trans people are seen as "weird" or "undesirable". A lot of times, a preference you have may not be simply a preference: it is a product of societal conditioning wrt who acceptable partners are and who aren't acceptable.
Note that nothing about this is saying "if you identify as x you must date people REGARDLESS OF GENDER OR GENITAL CONFIGURATION," it is simply a request to sift out how much of your desires have been influenced by external forces, since this is literally a thing that happens to every single human being that is alive. It is entirely valid if your desires do not change after you have done this! But at least you'll know that you aren't writing off entire groups of people you'd otherwise be interested in because of some Thing you happened to pick up as you grew. Really, I can't see why someone WOULDN'T want to do this, since... yeah, either you end up where you started, or end up having some potential cool relationships with people you otherwise woulda written off because you weren't "supposed" to be attracted to them.
The fact that all this talk - without any validation or acknowledgement of his standpoint, for it being the case aside the hidden stuff - came up after Corfaisus talked about how a penis simply isn't his thing, it definitely seemed like that is not a valid way to think about it.
A "cool if you figured it out yourself, but be careful that it's not a general thing, as many simple didn't think about it because ..." would've done the trick.
Just noting that.
What is this thing we are supposed to do? Acknowledging that society has an influence and thinking about it again?
I mean, "trying to sift out how much my desire has been influenced" .. does NOT give me any starting point. If it so happened, it's been completely unconscious, so .. how DO you do that? How DO you uncover what's underneath?
It's really the point I've been trying to make before. You give me a social construct, you give me reasons why it exists and how it works, and you tell me to see and deconstruct it for myself. None of which is tangible advice to get into action. To ask questions. To get to the bottom of yourself. I won't be able to change society as a whole, nor how society works, nor how the norm in this regard is - simple because regarding it as the norm will save a lot of people quite a lot of work of constructing and figuring out anew.
Please give me something I can use right now. Ask me a question that is pointing right at the issue.
I am perfectly content with how I live and how I feel, so please do not expect me to try to analyse myself, the world, gender origins, existance, labelling thereof, sexuality, deconstruct it, and then maybe start getting somewhere on a whim.
I know you're not asking that, but with the focus of explanations and such it appears that way. And the way it's discussed that appears to be the foundation for any introspective and sorry to say .. people won't automatically do it because somebody points at it.
Society has an influence. Certainly. Is interesting to read the "controversial" comments under some crossdressing hentai. Some straights are confused because they like it even with penis in plain view, some like it without worry and some simply do not like it.
I'd suppose imagining stuff like that. In which case I've long since done it.
A "cool if you figured it out yourself, but be careful that it's not a general thing, as many simple didn't think about it because ..." would've done the trick.
Just noting that.
author=emmych
it is simply a request to sift out how much of your desires have been influenced by external forces, since this is literally a thing that happens to every single human being that is alive. It is entirely valid if your desires do not change after you have done this!
What is this thing we are supposed to do? Acknowledging that society has an influence and thinking about it again?
I mean, "trying to sift out how much my desire has been influenced" .. does NOT give me any starting point. If it so happened, it's been completely unconscious, so .. how DO you do that? How DO you uncover what's underneath?
It's really the point I've been trying to make before. You give me a social construct, you give me reasons why it exists and how it works, and you tell me to see and deconstruct it for myself. None of which is tangible advice to get into action. To ask questions. To get to the bottom of yourself. I won't be able to change society as a whole, nor how society works, nor how the norm in this regard is - simple because regarding it as the norm will save a lot of people quite a lot of work of constructing and figuring out anew.
Please give me something I can use right now. Ask me a question that is pointing right at the issue.
I am perfectly content with how I live and how I feel, so please do not expect me to try to analyse myself, the world, gender origins, existance, labelling thereof, sexuality, deconstruct it, and then maybe start getting somewhere on a whim.
I know you're not asking that, but with the focus of explanations and such it appears that way. And the way it's discussed that appears to be the foundation for any introspective and sorry to say .. people won't automatically do it because somebody points at it.
Society has an influence. Certainly. Is interesting to read the "controversial" comments under some crossdressing hentai. Some straights are confused because they like it even with penis in plain view, some like it without worry and some simply do not like it.
I'd suppose imagining stuff like that. In which case I've long since done it.
Frankly, all through history there have been cases of people being told they can't be together due to the standards of their society... and they buck those trends anyway. Because of that attraction. It's seen time and time again in the past where a couple will get together despite society's views on their romance. And those who buckle to society's whims on that score know that they're buckling and are conflicted about it but choose to buckle.
Fair enough, if they're unsure about what they want thinking it over and looking at it from that point of view can help solidify why you feel so conflicted, but if you know where your attraction lies, then you know where your attraction lies, no matter what society has to say about it. The only thing that matters then is whether you choose to buckle or rebel. But very often when they say 'I don't like x/y/z' it's because they don't like x/y/z, not because society tells them not to.
Or they're lying to keep face in front of society, but in that case they need to sort out for themselves whether they're going to keep buckling or not. They already know that they're conflicted, that they like x/y/z - they just have an issue with letting themselves be free from the chains they strapped on themselves for whatever reason.
Fair enough, if they're unsure about what they want thinking it over and looking at it from that point of view can help solidify why you feel so conflicted, but if you know where your attraction lies, then you know where your attraction lies, no matter what society has to say about it. The only thing that matters then is whether you choose to buckle or rebel. But very often when they say 'I don't like x/y/z' it's because they don't like x/y/z, not because society tells them not to.
Or they're lying to keep face in front of society, but in that case they need to sort out for themselves whether they're going to keep buckling or not. They already know that they're conflicted, that they like x/y/z - they just have an issue with letting themselves be free from the chains they strapped on themselves for whatever reason.
It is extremely unethical and in fact immoral to withhold any information about your gender from your partner from minute one. This includes your actual biological sex and whatever-the-hell gender you currently identify as and everything in between.
It is a terrible idea to deceive a partner about something as basic as your gender/sex from minute one: a lot of violence happens against transexual people because of exactly this. "Transexuality" is obviously something that it's really difficult for people to get their heads around. What really doesn't help people do so is having it be a "SURPRISE!" moment. Surprise dick is not something I would imagine that anyone who was not looking for dick in the first place is going to appreciate. Reacting violently is pretty understandable (although not as understandable as just running away from that person at top speed and never looking at or touching them again).
As Liberty suggested, homosexual people can actually find the idea of personally engaging heterosexual activity abhorrent. Likewise, heterosexual people can find the idea of personally engaging in homosexual activity abhorrent. It is not as simple as not liking chocolate ice cream. It is a form of violation.
...as has been mentioned by a few people a few times in a few ways, this seems to fly in the entire face of the long-standing liberal talking point that being gay is not a choice.
I feel like I should state for the record that I strongly disagree with the assertions about the fluid, socially constructed nature of sex, sexual preference and gender put forward by WetMattos, emmych, and others. I was exposed to these ideas in college and I reject them entirely. This is not based on any kind of religious bias, because I am not a religious person. They just fly directly in the face of all observable reality for me, and therefore don't hold any water.
In other words, exactly this. I am a straight cisgender man, and no amount of wild, surging acceptance of homosexuality and transexuality and no amount of bigotry against and repression of being cisgender and heterosexual would alter this. I am a dude who just likes chicks. Like a sizable segment of the population, I was born that way. It is not a socially constructed identity. It's basic biology.
It is a terrible idea to deceive a partner about something as basic as your gender/sex from minute one: a lot of violence happens against transexual people because of exactly this. "Transexuality" is obviously something that it's really difficult for people to get their heads around. What really doesn't help people do so is having it be a "SURPRISE!" moment. Surprise dick is not something I would imagine that anyone who was not looking for dick in the first place is going to appreciate. Reacting violently is pretty understandable (although not as understandable as just running away from that person at top speed and never looking at or touching them again).
As Liberty suggested, homosexual people can actually find the idea of personally engaging heterosexual activity abhorrent. Likewise, heterosexual people can find the idea of personally engaging in homosexual activity abhorrent. It is not as simple as not liking chocolate ice cream. It is a form of violation.
People's genders and sexualities are very real things, but often times they are influenced by societal expectations.
...as has been mentioned by a few people a few times in a few ways, this seems to fly in the entire face of the long-standing liberal talking point that being gay is not a choice.
I feel like I should state for the record that I strongly disagree with the assertions about the fluid, socially constructed nature of sex, sexual preference and gender put forward by WetMattos, emmych, and others. I was exposed to these ideas in college and I reject them entirely. This is not based on any kind of religious bias, because I am not a religious person. They just fly directly in the face of all observable reality for me, and therefore don't hold any water.
Fair enough, if they're unsure about what they want thinking it over and looking at it from that point of view can help solidify why you feel so conflicted, but if you know where your attraction lies, then you know where your attraction lies, no matter what society has to say about it. The only thing that matters then is whether you choose to buckle or rebel. But very often when they say 'I don't like x/y/z' it's because they don't like x/y/z, not because society tells them not to.
In other words, exactly this. I am a straight cisgender man, and no amount of wild, surging acceptance of homosexuality and transexuality and no amount of bigotry against and repression of being cisgender and heterosexual would alter this. I am a dude who just likes chicks. Like a sizable segment of the population, I was born that way. It is not a socially constructed identity. It's basic biology.
Okay Max, I need to say a couple things.
First, I want to preface this by saying that I don't think you hate trans people because you say things like this, or even that you hate women because you don't like feminism, or anything like that. If I have ever said anything that has given you that impression, that was wrong of me and it was not my intention.
But I need you to understand something here.
These are exactly the kinds of things it is definitely not okay to say in threads like this. Imagine how a trans person (of which there are several active in this thread) would feel, coming along and reading that you think violence against them is understandable if someone felt deceived, or even just that running away forever is the better reaction.
Now, I do agree with you that I think being 100% transparent with a potential partner is probably the best choice, for a lot of reasons. Even though I'm sure some people might say that it shouldn't matter, I just don't have that much faith in humanity.
But goddamn, please don't come into threads like this and take positions like 'violence against trans people is justified sometimes' because that is 100% not cool.
First, I want to preface this by saying that I don't think you hate trans people because you say things like this, or even that you hate women because you don't like feminism, or anything like that. If I have ever said anything that has given you that impression, that was wrong of me and it was not my intention.
But I need you to understand something here.
author=Max McGee
It is a terrible idea to deceive a partner about something as basic as your gender/sex from minute one: a lot of violence happens against transexual people because of exactly this.
Reacting violently is pretty understandable
These are exactly the kinds of things it is definitely not okay to say in threads like this. Imagine how a trans person (of which there are several active in this thread) would feel, coming along and reading that you think violence against them is understandable if someone felt deceived, or even just that running away forever is the better reaction.
Now, I do agree with you that I think being 100% transparent with a potential partner is probably the best choice, for a lot of reasons. Even though I'm sure some people might say that it shouldn't matter, I just don't have that much faith in humanity.
But goddamn, please don't come into threads like this and take positions like 'violence against trans people is justified sometimes' because that is 100% not cool.
So many people observe and live with this fluidity at no harm to you and it's not observable? I'm cisgender too but I can understand and accept that not everybody fits an exact mold. Also, things change. Brains are wild places and we're still learning about the mind -- both physically and, well, mentally.
also yeah no i didn't choose to be gay sorry, it would be way easier to just be straight in this world of mindsets like yours =|
also yeah no i didn't choose to be gay sorry, it would be way easier to just be straight in this world of mindsets like yours =|
author=emmychMy earldom needed ties of marriage to the earldom across the quay. Though the dowry was expensive, I needed the other earl's support to fend off incursions from an aggressive Viscount to the south!
I think literally everyone here can agree that forcing people who are not interested in each other to be together is a bad thing
E:
oh, and Max that is actually NOT an understandable and okay reaction.
and sexuality and gender and sexual preference isn't some binary construct. I really hope that that is within your observable reality, because it is p.obvs.
No offense Max, but I can't believe I'm doing this.
While I think this statement
Is pretty bad, I think this statement
^ Is pretty much fact, and I think Max was just stating as much, and not endorsing it.
Do I think transparency on gender matters to a partner? Of course. It's incredibly both naive and presumptuous to assume that being trans shouldn't matter your partner, because gender is one of the most basic ways that people choose a partner, no matter their sexual identity. Even if someone was born a man and is later a woman, they're still transgender, and that's totally a thing that I feel their potential partners have a right to know and come to grips how they feel about it.
The underlying philosophy I sometimes get in discussions like these is that gender totally doesn't matter for anything and it shouldn't, but I think that's complete fucking bullshit. Gender, past and present, matters, and will matter to a lot of people in terms how they identify themselves and their choices in life and how they go forward in relationships.
The idea is to treat everyone with respect, no matter their gender, regardless of what they identify with, which is something I'm totally down with, but I don't think that people should feel some sort of guilt for choosing a partner based on a past, present, or possibly future gender identity and wanting total transparency on the matter. As this discussion proves, gender isn't arbitrary and it's totally something that's not cool being opaque about it in something like a relationship, where gender has more relevance than any other human interaction ever.
While I think this statement
Reacting violently is pretty understandable
Is pretty bad, I think this statement
It is a terrible idea to deceive a partner about something as basic as your gender/sex from minute one: a lot of violence happens against transexual people because of exactly this.
^ Is pretty much fact, and I think Max was just stating as much, and not endorsing it.
Do I think transparency on gender matters to a partner? Of course. It's incredibly both naive and presumptuous to assume that being trans shouldn't matter your partner, because gender is one of the most basic ways that people choose a partner, no matter their sexual identity. Even if someone was born a man and is later a woman, they're still transgender, and that's totally a thing that I feel their potential partners have a right to know and come to grips how they feel about it.
The underlying philosophy I sometimes get in discussions like these is that gender totally doesn't matter for anything and it shouldn't, but I think that's complete fucking bullshit. Gender, past and present, matters, and will matter to a lot of people in terms how they identify themselves and their choices in life and how they go forward in relationships.
The idea is to treat everyone with respect, no matter their gender, regardless of what they identify with, which is something I'm totally down with, but I don't think that people should feel some sort of guilt for choosing a partner based on a past, present, or possibly future gender identity and wanting total transparency on the matter. As this discussion proves, gender isn't arbitrary and it's totally something that's not cool being opaque about it in something like a relationship, where gender has more relevance than any other human interaction ever.
