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THE ULTIMATE LEGEND OF ZELDA THREAD.
Posts
Isrieri
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CloseIf I have a beef with ALBW its the dungeons. They don't feel like labyrinths, or have any sense of space, or dread, or mystique. Certainly not like Twilight Princess had. Go load the game up and look at the dungeon maps. They're all essentially a giant square room with walls dividing it up.
That's a very nitpick complaint though. The dungeons feel very "video-gamey" but that doesn't mean that the puzzles aren't well-designed nor that they aren't fun to play through. And its not like square rooms comprising your entire dungeon is something I can really get mad at, considering...y'know.
Lorule Castle gets me pumped for the finale. And the final boss was superb.
Locke does bring up a valid point with the items and how since you can have them all the devs assume you never have them. I didn't think about it that way before and is a real let-down. But the way I see it: Its baby steps. The only reason they did that was so you could play dungeons in any order. And they pulled that off. Next time, they'll expand to having all the items in one dungeon hopefully maybe.
This is precisely the root of my personal disappointment: The tools available to you for combat were plentiful and well-implemented and fighting flowed well and it was fun to hit things. But I can't consider it anything but wasted potential because all the enemies are so duuuuumb. I mean, I know the AI in Zelda foes has never been up to snuff ever, and if it did the game would get frustrating very quickly, but this was the game that felt as though it could have benefited the most from buffing them up a bit. You've got the combat skills you can learn to take on smarter foes, and have myriad tools to fall back on to cheese the hell out of some trickier enemies (bomb arrows on ice spear dudes is hella fun) but the game just makes that "the way" and not a weakness to be exploited or make you feel clever for using. It totes sucks. The funnest combat of the game was probably the Cave of Ordeals because at least they tossed them in some interesting enemy combos and made health scarce.
Don't get me wrong, its still fun to be a whirling dervish of death. But I had such hopes for the game's foes and they didn't live up to that. I mean say what you want about OOT but at least the skeletons had the decency to strafe. Yes I am being a tad unreasonable with my expectations. A full grown man like myself is basically disqualified from calling Zelda too easy.
I WAS just a teenager at the time though SO ITS STILL VALID.
That's not the worst of it my friend. No one ever seems to realize it, but the game relies 150% on Z Targeting. All you have to do to kill those annoying gobby bastards and most of the directional-blocking foes is just not target them. They'll hold their weapons back like a bunch of idiots and just let you spin-attack them all the live-long day. The core gameplay mechanic relies on you being a goody two-shoes.
If I recall correctly you can even cheese the Lizalfos with this. And they were hands down the most engaging enemy. Skyward Sword did impress with me with them, at the least.
Pretty true, and it sucks that every boss ever after OOT has you do that crap. But they had the benefit of being intimidating bosses at the time. There was a real menace to walking into a boss room and seeing that giant goddamn dragon monster or the creepy crawly parasite you had to actually look up on the ceiling to find. Or the scary ghost ganon that SHOT LIGHTNING BOLTS UP YOUR ASS in very claustrophobic conditions. And Deadhand. That guy.
Not the most challenging but they were cool bosses. The bosses in the newer games are just silly sometimes. (Not that there aren't a few winners now and again. The final fight with Ganon in Wind Waker is my favorite Ganon fight)
The LTTP bosses are superior gameplay wise, so that's why it got Best Gameplay from me.
But its so adventurous! The wind at your back! The seagulls! The endless horizons! If the whole game was JUST sailing around and exploring islands I would have loved it all the more. But nooo Zelda games have to have dungeons. I concede this: They could have really benefited from putting the islands closer together. There was no reason not to make the game a giant archipelago.
The biggest thing the dungeons have going for it is that they don't always give you a key to immediately use on a locked door that prevents your progress to the next linear room. There were sometimes multiple locked doors you could choose to open and explore that room with. It didn't come up often, but the option was clearly there. It put the exploration of the dungeons in your hands. The reason they're so well designed is that they give you that non-linearity and allow you to get lost. But the tools are there so that you can find your own bearings if you use your noggin.
This freedom to use keys on multiple locked doors is the reason the Water Temple is so hated; they hid one of the keys in a pretty sneaky spot. And the entire world bitched about it and they've never let us have that freedom again. OOT kids all bitch about the Water Temple but we secretly love and cherish it. It built character.
Here's the solution Nintendo: Give us an item that counts the total keys in a dungeon. Bam. Problem solved forever why aren't they paying me for this.
That's a very nitpick complaint though. The dungeons feel very "video-gamey" but that doesn't mean that the puzzles aren't well-designed nor that they aren't fun to play through. And its not like square rooms comprising your entire dungeon is something I can really get mad at, considering...y'know.
Lorule Castle gets me pumped for the finale. And the final boss was superb.
Locke does bring up a valid point with the items and how since you can have them all the devs assume you never have them. I didn't think about it that way before and is a real let-down. But the way I see it: Its baby steps. The only reason they did that was so you could play dungeons in any order. And they pulled that off. Next time, they'll expand to having all the items in one dungeon hopefully maybe.
author=LockeZ
Twilight Princess is the only game in the series where the swordplay has any more depth than swing sword, charge up sword for circle swing, jump attack for double damage. You got all kinds of neat combat abilities like finishing moves and counterattacks and rolling strikes and stuff. And it was the first and last game where the tools were also integrated into combat well - you could use them all effectively while locked on, and even use some of them from horseback while locked on. I loved it.
This is precisely the root of my personal disappointment: The tools available to you for combat were plentiful and well-implemented and fighting flowed well and it was fun to hit things. But I can't consider it anything but wasted potential because all the enemies are so duuuuumb. I mean, I know the AI in Zelda foes has never been up to snuff ever, and if it did the game would get frustrating very quickly, but this was the game that felt as though it could have benefited the most from buffing them up a bit. You've got the combat skills you can learn to take on smarter foes, and have myriad tools to fall back on to cheese the hell out of some trickier enemies (bomb arrows on ice spear dudes is hella fun) but the game just makes that "the way" and not a weakness to be exploited or make you feel clever for using. It totes sucks. The funnest combat of the game was probably the Cave of Ordeals because at least they tossed them in some interesting enemy combos and made health scarce.
Don't get me wrong, its still fun to be a whirling dervish of death. But I had such hopes for the game's foes and they didn't live up to that. I mean say what you want about OOT but at least the skeletons had the decency to strafe. Yes I am being a tad unreasonable with my expectations. A full grown man like myself is basically disqualified from calling Zelda too easy.
I WAS just a teenager at the time though SO ITS STILL VALID.
Far better than the bullshit horrible Skyward Sword bullshit where it tracked your remote terribly, and then did everything a third of a second after you did it.
That's not the worst of it my friend. No one ever seems to realize it, but the game relies 150% on Z Targeting. All you have to do to kill those annoying gobby bastards and most of the directional-blocking foes is just not target them. They'll hold their weapons back like a bunch of idiots and just let you spin-attack them all the live-long day. The core gameplay mechanic relies on you being a goody two-shoes.
If I recall correctly you can even cheese the Lizalfos with this. And they were hands down the most engaging enemy. Skyward Sword did impress with me with them, at the least.
author=LightningLord2
Bosses in OoT and Minish Cap are sluggish, easily predictable and merely require spamming whatever item you found in the dungeon until the opponent falls over,
Pretty true, and it sucks that every boss ever after OOT has you do that crap. But they had the benefit of being intimidating bosses at the time. There was a real menace to walking into a boss room and seeing that giant goddamn dragon monster or the creepy crawly parasite you had to actually look up on the ceiling to find. Or the scary ghost ganon that SHOT LIGHTNING BOLTS UP YOUR ASS in very claustrophobic conditions. And Deadhand. That guy.
Not the most challenging but they were cool bosses. The bosses in the newer games are just silly sometimes. (Not that there aren't a few winners now and again. The final fight with Ganon in Wind Waker is my favorite Ganon fight)
The LTTP bosses are superior gameplay wise, so that's why it got Best Gameplay from me.
author=LockeZ
Wind Waker has the worst exploration. I mean, that's obvious. Fuck the ocean. Never playing that game again. The sailing is so bad. It makes the game completely unplayable.
But its so adventurous! The wind at your back! The seagulls! The endless horizons! If the whole game was JUST sailing around and exploring islands I would have loved it all the more. But nooo Zelda games have to have dungeons. I concede this: They could have really benefited from putting the islands closer together. There was no reason not to make the game a giant archipelago.
author=LightningLord2
I also like the dungeon design in A Link to the Past as it is always clear which way to go next - in OoT, it's very frequent to run into dead ends, traverse extremely complicated floors (dat forest temple) and you don't get a map + compass until you beat most of the dungeon already.
The biggest thing the dungeons have going for it is that they don't always give you a key to immediately use on a locked door that prevents your progress to the next linear room. There were sometimes multiple locked doors you could choose to open and explore that room with. It didn't come up often, but the option was clearly there. It put the exploration of the dungeons in your hands. The reason they're so well designed is that they give you that non-linearity and allow you to get lost. But the tools are there so that you can find your own bearings if you use your noggin.
This freedom to use keys on multiple locked doors is the reason the Water Temple is so hated; they hid one of the keys in a pretty sneaky spot. And the entire world bitched about it and they've never let us have that freedom again. OOT kids all bitch about the Water Temple but we secretly love and cherish it. It built character.
Here's the solution Nintendo: Give us an item that counts the total keys in a dungeon. Bam. Problem solved forever why aren't they paying me for this.
author=LockeZ
The slow-down time thing is a secret that takes a while to discover, you'll probably go through the first third of the game without knowing about it, which is by design. Around the time you learn about it, the paths to get to each dungeon are becoming much longer. If you're playing the game the first time and not using a walkthrough, you should definitely expect to spend a solid ten hours redoing stuff you did already. Even though the later sections of the game are longer, I think it's the worst during the first parts of the game, because you're still figuring out how the time-rewinding works, and experimenting with what gets reset and what doesn't, and spending time learning the basic gameplay, and talking to everyone, and exploring every nook and cranny, and getting lost, and constantly forgetting about the time limit.
I actually did totally miss that possibility the first time around as a kid, but I soon got stuff done - barely, but I did it. And could beat the game without worry.
But yeah, you can easily have to redo a lot of things early on, but it also made for real tension fighting that time limit, so that was cool, too.
I can imagine it being a pain if you don't have that kind of enjoyment to make up for it.
Twilight Princess was too easy all around, such a shame, really. Still ridiculously fun, but could have been aiming for the top.
.. also. The sea in Wind Waker is still haunting me .. I am so close to completion. But I can't spend another minute in that boat.
LightningLord2
230
author=IsrieriI stated it before, but you do need to think about what to do with your items - while most Zelda games just ask you to use your temple item, ALBW requires you to master them.
If I have a beef with ALBW its the dungeons. They don't feel like labyrinths, or have any sense of space, or dread, or mystique. Certainly not like Twilight Princess had. Go load the game up and look at the dungeon maps. They're all essentially a giant square room with walls dividing it up.
That's a very nitpick complaint though. The dungeons feel very "video-gamey" but that doesn't mean that the puzzles aren't well-designed nor that they aren't fun to play through. And its not like square rooms comprising your entire dungeon is something I can really get mad at, considering...y'know.
Lorule Castle gets me pumped for the finale. And the final boss was superb.
Locke does bring up a valid point with the items and how since you can have them all the devs assume you never have them. I didn't think about it that way before and is a real let-down. But the way I see it: Its baby steps. The only reason they did that was so you could play dungeons in any order. And they pulled that off. Next time, they'll expand to having all the items in one dungeon hopefully maybe.
author=IsrieriGood idea, bad execution, basically, but LttP bosses are more frightening as you play them. Just the first Dungeon suddenly drops half a dozen statues on you out of nowhere that are immune to your sword and the third makes you constantly worry about falling. OoT's bosses are more akin to the animatronics in a haunted house - they look creepy until you realize they can't do anything to harm you.author=LightningLord2Pretty true, and it sucks that every boss ever after OOT has you do that crap. But they had the benefit of being intimidating bosses at the time. There was a real menace to walking into a boss room and seeing that giant goddamn dragon monster or the creepy crawly parasite you had to actually look up on the ceiling to find. Or the scary ghost ganon that SHOT LIGHTNING BOLTS UP YOUR ASS in very claustrophobic conditions. And Deadhand. That guy.
Bosses in OoT and Minish Cap are sluggish, easily predictable and merely require spamming whatever item you found in the dungeon until the opponent falls over,
Not the most challenging but they were cool bosses. The bosses in the newer games are just silly sometimes. (Not that there aren't a few winners now and again. The final fight with Ganon in Wind Waker is my favorite Ganon fight)
The LTTP bosses are superior gameplay wise, so that's why it got Best Gameplay from me.
author=IsrieriSeeing the obstacles in a room and thinking about how to get past it is fun. Running through countless, identical-looking hallways which lead you in circles while mixing in slow death traps is not. Not even a walkthrough was enough for me to make sense of the Fire Temple. I probably would have went through if I searched for more hours, but I decided against it as it was no fun anymore.author=LightningLord2The biggest thing the dungeons have going for it is that they don't always give you a key to immediately use on a locked door that prevents your progress to the next linear room. There were sometimes multiple locked doors you could choose to open and explore that room with. It didn't come up often, but the option was clearly there. It put the exploration of the dungeons in your hands. The reason they're so well designed is that they give you that non-linearity and allow you to get lost. But the tools are there so that you can find your own bearings if you use your noggin.
I also like the dungeon design in A Link to the Past as it is always clear which way to go next - in OoT, it's very frequent to run into dead ends, traverse extremely complicated floors (dat forest temple) and you don't get a map + compass until you beat most of the dungeon already.
This freedom to use keys on multiple locked doors is the reason the Water Temple is so hated; they hid one of the keys in a pretty sneaky spot. And the entire world bitched about it and they've never let us have that freedom again. OOT kids all bitch about the Water Temple but we secretly love and cherish it. It built character.
Don't get offended by my opinions ;)
I felt the dungeons to be unintuitive, some rooms where you only needed to kill enemies seemed to be there just to artificially add more time to the game, other rooms you just destroy everything to find a switch or push a block to open a door and those seem really lame.
There's that dungeon with the coloured walls where you hit a switch to change which walls are up/down, you don't really need to think about when to hit the switch, you just keep going and using all switches you come across, it's like the walls didn't even need to be there, just busy work.
Some dungeons seemed like a string of rooms with no flavour.
All Zeldas have a lot of backtracking in dungeons (until you discover the correct route), but since I didn't enjoy the combat it made it more of a chore to backtrack and fight the same enemies again.
My major complain was that it wasn't fun for me.
Link moves really slow, while you can sort of strife in all directions (including diagonals) you can only really strike your sword in the main four cardinal directions.
If an enemy moves to "north-east" you'll probably miss the sword strike, then you have to move away from the enemy and reposition yourself in a big moving arc (so you don't get hit) to be in a straight line next to it and try again.
Sometimes it feels like an action RPG Maker 2000/2003 game.
Changing secondary items was also cumbersome (menu), specially when you had to do it often, that was also a drag when solving puzzles in dungeons.
Sometimes I felt I was taking hits and it wasn't my fault.
That's the thing, the only other 2D Zelda game I've played was Four Swords Adventures and since it uses the same puzzles I was underwhelmed.
There was no discovery for me, although I can't say those puzzles were much more fun when I solved them in Four Swords Adventures.
Puzzles in 3D Zeldas are also simple, but I find them to be satisfying to complete.
These puzzles were innovative when the game came out, though.
I did hear it was a really good game, some people even call this the best Zelda ever.
My expectations were high.
This happened before with other games, but I actually liked those games.
author=Link_2112
Can you provide specific examples and explain why? It's not much different from other games' design.
I felt the dungeons to be unintuitive, some rooms where you only needed to kill enemies seemed to be there just to artificially add more time to the game, other rooms you just destroy everything to find a switch or push a block to open a door and those seem really lame.
There's that dungeon with the coloured walls where you hit a switch to change which walls are up/down, you don't really need to think about when to hit the switch, you just keep going and using all switches you come across, it's like the walls didn't even need to be there, just busy work.
Some dungeons seemed like a string of rooms with no flavour.
All Zeldas have a lot of backtracking in dungeons (until you discover the correct route), but since I didn't enjoy the combat it made it more of a chore to backtrack and fight the same enemies again.
My major complain was that it wasn't fun for me.
author=Link_2112
How is the battle clunky/awkward?
Link moves really slow, while you can sort of strife in all directions (including diagonals) you can only really strike your sword in the main four cardinal directions.
If an enemy moves to "north-east" you'll probably miss the sword strike, then you have to move away from the enemy and reposition yourself in a big moving arc (so you don't get hit) to be in a straight line next to it and try again.
Sometimes it feels like an action RPG Maker 2000/2003 game.
Changing secondary items was also cumbersome (menu), specially when you had to do it often, that was also a drag when solving puzzles in dungeons.
Sometimes I felt I was taking hits and it wasn't my fault.
author=Link_2112
How are those puzzles any less simplistic than just about every other 2D Zelda game?
That's the thing, the only other 2D Zelda game I've played was Four Swords Adventures and since it uses the same puzzles I was underwhelmed.
There was no discovery for me, although I can't say those puzzles were much more fun when I solved them in Four Swords Adventures.
Puzzles in 3D Zeldas are also simple, but I find them to be satisfying to complete.
These puzzles were innovative when the game came out, though.
author=Link_2112
It sounds like you heard lots of hype about how great the game was and expected it to be so much more amazing than other Zelda games, but it's basically the same and you're knocking it because of that.
I did hear it was a really good game, some people even call this the best Zelda ever.
My expectations were high.
This happened before with other games, but I actually liked those games.
seacliff217
2734
I've beaten all the main Zelda games... at least the ones that are on the (totally uneeded) timeline. But since the opinions of each Zelda games vary greatly in this thread alone, I won't say much about my opinions on each game besides the fact I don't hate any of them.
Now for my in depth SS rant everyone seems to be required to do:
I will say Skyward Sword is one of the weakest in the series. The motion controls worked very well for me, sure, but the battle system screams unused potential. 85% of all the enemies in the game are fought the same way, waiting then attacking in a certain direction. The most interesting enemy in the game was probably the giant spiders, because you have multiple ways to fight them, not to mention both ways encourages you to expose the enemy's weakpoint rather then the enemy exposing it to you while you are waiting.
The writing is several steps down from Twilight Princess and is honestly the most overrated aspect of the game. Time travel felt extremely forced into the plot, littering the story with holes near the ending. People praise the game for the relationship between Link and Zelda, while honestly it's not much better than a mediocre romance manga. Zelda hardly develops as a character, while Fi does all of her development in the last possible minute with no driving force.
Not to say the game did do a couple of things right in my eyes. Groose is probably one of my favorite characters in the franchise. His development may of been predictable, but he's one of the only characters besides link in a Zelda game who felt like action needed to be taken. (Though I can argue he doesn't do much, it's still more than what anyone else does in OOT)
Another praise is the area design (not so much the dungeon design, they were above average though) Outside of the padding in Faron Woods, it felt nice to have some action outside a dungeon.
Lastly, Ghirahim was a pretty fun boss that evolves each time you fight him. But I think they put too much effort into his fight since the other bosses were at best average. Especially in design.
That's all I wanted to say about SS, feel free to agree or disagree. Just keep in mind I won't lash at your opinions as long as you respect mine. :P
Now for my in depth SS rant everyone seems to be required to do:
I will say Skyward Sword is one of the weakest in the series. The motion controls worked very well for me, sure, but the battle system screams unused potential. 85% of all the enemies in the game are fought the same way, waiting then attacking in a certain direction. The most interesting enemy in the game was probably the giant spiders, because you have multiple ways to fight them, not to mention both ways encourages you to expose the enemy's weakpoint rather then the enemy exposing it to you while you are waiting.
The writing is several steps down from Twilight Princess and is honestly the most overrated aspect of the game. Time travel felt extremely forced into the plot, littering the story with holes near the ending. People praise the game for the relationship between Link and Zelda, while honestly it's not much better than a mediocre romance manga. Zelda hardly develops as a character, while Fi does all of her development in the last possible minute with no driving force.
Not to say the game did do a couple of things right in my eyes. Groose is probably one of my favorite characters in the franchise. His development may of been predictable, but he's one of the only characters besides link in a Zelda game who felt like action needed to be taken. (Though I can argue he doesn't do much, it's still more than what anyone else does in OOT)
Another praise is the area design (not so much the dungeon design, they were above average though) Outside of the padding in Faron Woods, it felt nice to have some action outside a dungeon.
Lastly, Ghirahim was a pretty fun boss that evolves each time you fight him. But I think they put too much effort into his fight since the other bosses were at best average. Especially in design.
That's all I wanted to say about SS, feel free to agree or disagree. Just keep in mind I won't lash at your opinions as long as you respect mine. :P
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
To be fair, any storyline equivalent to a mediocre comic book is infinitely better than 99% of video games, and better than 90% of story-driven video games. The bar is low. Your typical plot in a story-heavy video game is equivalent to an episode of a preschool cartoon, and that's the level of quality of almost every part of the story in almost every Zelda game. Any greater depth you read into it is what you imagined, because a video game draws you into its story in a way that other mediums don't and gets you far more connected with it. So when something in a video game is as well-written as a young adult story instead of a preschool story, it's definitely noteworthy and respectable.
author=LockeZ
Majora's Mask has the worst budget. All that reused shit from Ocarina of Time is just pathetic.
Wind Waker has the worst exploration. I mean, that's obvious. Fuck the ocean. Never playing that game again. The sailing is so bad. It makes the game completely unplayable.
Twilight Princess has the best everything in every category.
This whole post is wack. Imo twilight didn't even feel like a Zelda game. All I could think of was that everything felt Final Fantasy-ish :(
LightningLord2
230
author=arcanauthor=LockeZThis whole post is wack. Imo twilight didn't even feel like a Zelda game. All I could think of was that everything felt Final Fantasy-ish :(
Majora's Mask has the worst budget. All that reused shit from Ocarina of Time is just pathetic.
Wind Waker has the worst exploration. I mean, that's obvious. Fuck the ocean. Never playing that game again. The sailing is so bad. It makes the game completely unplayable.
Twilight Princess has the best everything in every category.
Didn't TP have those segments where you were trapped in an area and had to collect a bunch of shiny things to move on?
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah. I like to block those from my memory when talking about how good it was.
Skyward Sword had the same thing. Because apparently they got such a good response from players and reviewers about those segments?????
They weren't that bad, I guess. In Twilight Princess they were all out in the open in a straight line, and they were used to lead you down the correct path from one end of the zone to the other the first time you arrived. It was like having a quest tracker. Which was... unnecessarily hand-holdy, but at least not totally pointless. In Skyward Sword they put them in zones you'd already explored, in hidden places, which felt even more like filler but was also less insulting. And then you were timed and could lose them all, which was ridiculous, Zelda games should let you just wander around and explore and find shit. At least you didn't have to hunt all over the world for them like the fucking squidbabies in A Link Between Worlds (though the squidbabies are optional).
Skyward Sword had the same thing. Because apparently they got such a good response from players and reviewers about those segments?????
They weren't that bad, I guess. In Twilight Princess they were all out in the open in a straight line, and they were used to lead you down the correct path from one end of the zone to the other the first time you arrived. It was like having a quest tracker. Which was... unnecessarily hand-holdy, but at least not totally pointless. In Skyward Sword they put them in zones you'd already explored, in hidden places, which felt even more like filler but was also less insulting. And then you were timed and could lose them all, which was ridiculous, Zelda games should let you just wander around and explore and find shit. At least you didn't have to hunt all over the world for them like the fucking squidbabies in A Link Between Worlds (though the squidbabies are optional).
seacliff217
2734
author=LockeZ
To be fair, any storyline equivalent to a mediocre comic book is infinitely better than 99% of video games, and better than 90% of story-driven video games. The bar is low. Your typical plot in a story-heavy video game is equivalent to an episode of a preschool cartoon, and that's the level of quality of almost every part of the story in almost every Zelda game. Any greater depth you read into it is what you imagined, because a video game draws you into its story in a way that other mediums don't and gets you far more connected with it. So when something in a video game is as well-written as a young adult story instead of a preschool story, it's definitely noteworthy and respectable.
I guess you've proven your point, Zelda isn't exactly known to have the deepest of plots.
But I feel like whenever I criticize Skyward Sword, especially it's plot, I find myself using very similar reasons that I used when I wrote an anime review for Sword Art Online. :P
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Its plot was pretty stupid. But, I mean.
Here is one of the most pivotal scenes from Ocarina of Time:
In ten minutes we have:
- You break into the castle like it's no big deal, no wonder Ganondorf defeated these idiots
- Zelda doesn't even care, beyond one second of surprised gasping that you pulled it off
- Princess Zelda tells you the history of her nation's secret omnipotent treasure and instructions on how to steal it, just because you say you're from the forest
- An eight year old child knows everything bad that's going to happen, but none of the adults will listen to her because they're adults and everyone knows adults are stupid
- Holy shit her dialogue is stiff. I mean I know she's a princess, but she's the title character and this is her only speaking scene in the first 98% of the game. She has absolutely no personality beyond "revealer of the backstory" and "person who tells you how to get the next three macguffins."
- The entire plot of the game is uncovered not by seeing it unfold, nor by logical deduction, nor by talking to someone knows about it for a believable reason, but because Zelda had a vision and "feels it in her heart" that this is the correct way to interpret it. What ridiculously lazy storytelling.
- Zelda doesn't even HAVE the Triforce of Wisdom yet, why is she getting visions? OOPS FORGOT TO HAVE A REASON FOR THAT
- I'm reasonably sure the only reason Link even came here was that a tree told him to go to the castle an hour and a half ago. The tree didn't even say why, just that our destiny would be explained. All of this nonsense is completely out of left field.
- "Now, we are the only ones who can protect Hyrule!" said the princess to a random eight year old boy who broke into her room two minutes ago and has no particular abilities except "being from the forest," while her highly trained and well-armed bodyguard who would do anything that Zelda asked stood by and watched wordlessly, apparently not part of this equation
I love the hell out of Ocarina of Time, it's one of my favorite games ever. But oh my God. This is legitimately one of the best scenes in the game. And it's SO BAD.
Here is one of the most pivotal scenes from Ocarina of Time:
In ten minutes we have:
- You break into the castle like it's no big deal, no wonder Ganondorf defeated these idiots
- Zelda doesn't even care, beyond one second of surprised gasping that you pulled it off
- Princess Zelda tells you the history of her nation's secret omnipotent treasure and instructions on how to steal it, just because you say you're from the forest
- An eight year old child knows everything bad that's going to happen, but none of the adults will listen to her because they're adults and everyone knows adults are stupid
- Holy shit her dialogue is stiff. I mean I know she's a princess, but she's the title character and this is her only speaking scene in the first 98% of the game. She has absolutely no personality beyond "revealer of the backstory" and "person who tells you how to get the next three macguffins."
- The entire plot of the game is uncovered not by seeing it unfold, nor by logical deduction, nor by talking to someone knows about it for a believable reason, but because Zelda had a vision and "feels it in her heart" that this is the correct way to interpret it. What ridiculously lazy storytelling.
- Zelda doesn't even HAVE the Triforce of Wisdom yet, why is she getting visions? OOPS FORGOT TO HAVE A REASON FOR THAT
- I'm reasonably sure the only reason Link even came here was that a tree told him to go to the castle an hour and a half ago. The tree didn't even say why, just that our destiny would be explained. All of this nonsense is completely out of left field.
- "Now, we are the only ones who can protect Hyrule!" said the princess to a random eight year old boy who broke into her room two minutes ago and has no particular abilities except "being from the forest," while her highly trained and well-armed bodyguard who would do anything that Zelda asked stood by and watched wordlessly, apparently not part of this equation
I love the hell out of Ocarina of Time, it's one of my favorite games ever. But oh my God. This is legitimately one of the best scenes in the game. And it's SO BAD.
The crux of OoT's plot is that Zelda screwed up, allowing Ganondorf to win. If I recall, she acknowledges later in the game that she messed up. The fact that Zelda's plan is stupid is intentional, and acknowledged by the game.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Yeah, I didn't even pick a particularly bad scene. I intentionally picked one of the better ones! I could've given you guys a montage of all of Tingle's scenes from across the series.
Also, her plan is this idiotic, and she's chosen by the Triforce as the person in Hyrule who most strongly represents wisdom.
Though, the way her plan screwed up actually has nothing to do with any of the above idiocies. Those are mostly all bad writing, rather than a bad plan. It only failed because the Master Sword put Link in stasis for seven years, which she couldn't have actually predicted. (Though maybe she could've, like, gone with him into the Temple of Time, like she said she would do in this scene. And then the writers apparently forgot about.)
Also, her plan is this idiotic, and she's chosen by the Triforce as the person in Hyrule who most strongly represents wisdom.
Though, the way her plan screwed up actually has nothing to do with any of the above idiocies. Those are mostly all bad writing, rather than a bad plan. It only failed because the Master Sword put Link in stasis for seven years, which she couldn't have actually predicted. (Though maybe she could've, like, gone with him into the Temple of Time, like she said she would do in this scene. And then the writers apparently forgot about.)
seacliff217
2734
I think what gets me on the edge about OOT plot is that Gannon goes to death mountain and asks for the spiritual stone. When Darunia refuses, all that Gannon does is block off a cave then leaves. Considering how powerful Gannon is, couldn't he just taken the stone by force? Same more or less goes for the other two stones. :P
I really like OOT as well, but I'll say this again: Zelda isn't exactly known for having deep plots.
I really like OOT as well, but I'll say this again: Zelda isn't exactly known for having deep plots.
People actually play Zelda for its plot? lol
It's all about the puzzle-solving and awesome dungeons.
It's all about the puzzle-solving and awesome dungeons.
LightningLord2
230
I want to think that you gain these Triforce pieces because of your abilities and not vice versa. At least for some abilities like Ganondorf's dark magic and Zelda's visions.
The bigger idiocy was that the whole takeover of Ganondorf can only happen if someone's stupid enough to pull out the Master Sword. One of the timeline splits even follows the plot where Link doesn't follow Zelda's advice and Ganondorf never gets to conquer Hyrule.
The bigger idiocy was that the whole takeover of Ganondorf can only happen if someone's stupid enough to pull out the Master Sword. One of the timeline splits even follows the plot where Link doesn't follow Zelda's advice and Ganondorf never gets to conquer Hyrule.
seacliff217
2734
author=LightningLord2Actually, going by Hyrule Historia. The reason why OOT never happened in that split is because OOT ALREADY happened in Link's perspective. The Link you play as in MM is the OOT Link after Zelda sent Link back after sealing Gannon. After returning to his home time period, he warns Zelda about what Gannon is up to... which leads us to the execution flashback in Twilight Princess.
One of the timeline splits even follows the plot where Link doesn't follow Zelda's advice and Ganondorf never gets to conquer Hyrule.
Then again, that's pretty much what your statement said... nevermind.
Just an FYI, I really don't care about the timeline, I just know a lot more about it than most people.
author=Ratty524I actually do know people who think Zelda stories are all deep and complex and stuff.
People actually play Zelda for its plot? lol
It's all about the puzzle-solving and awesome dungeons.
In cases where they think it's Complexity, I tell them to play Chrono Cross.
In cases of deepness and emotional, I tell them to play FF7. Though that's subjective.
LightningLord2
230
If you want complexity, try Kingdom Hearts. I bet not even Nomura can comprehend the plot.
EDIT: To get back on topic, what's the general opinion here on Triforce Heroes, the next upcoming Zelda game? It kinda looks really fun, especially with all the costume stuff.
EDIT: To get back on topic, what's the general opinion here on Triforce Heroes, the next upcoming Zelda game? It kinda looks really fun, especially with all the costume stuff.
