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GRINDING IN RPGS
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LightningLord2
230
LightningLord2
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CloseI probably talk about something that already has a topic, but I'm probably gonna get a warning for thread necroing, so here we go:
What shouldn't be discussed is whether grinding itself is good or bad, but rather which aspects of grinding are and why grinding is fun in one game and not in another.
To have some discussion basis, I provide a few things people commonly grind for:
Levels: Probably the most iconic form of grinding. As most RPGs provide Experience Points for battling, some players choose to fight enemies frequently to be able to increase their levels with them. With that, there's usually a stat increase that improves your odds against the enemies. While beating enemies can be done indefinitely, most games provide a level cap that makes further grinding for experience points useless.
Money: Mostly related to the above. This time, you look for a resource you can spend on consumables and equipment. Money grinding inherently has diminishing returns as you buy the good weapons and armor and only have consumables to spend it on. However, large reserves may be useful for later use.
Boosts: Levelling up doesn't just give you stats - sometimes, the desired result for grinding is a new skill or even a new form (Pokémon and Fire Emblem have that). This is generally more limited than levels, as those boosts tend to be less frequent.
Common Drops: Repeatedly beating an enemy that drops a certain item often or always. Usually, it is required to collect several of those to complete a quest, finish a crafting recipe or simply stockpile them as they're usable in battle.
Rare Drops: Related to the above. On the plus side, you only need one of these items. The catch is that the enemy only drops this very rarely. Most of the time, this is a powerful piece of equipment.
Rare Enemies: Kinda like the above. But instead of a rare item, this very enemy shows up rarely. It is often searched for one of the above, a fun battle (WarMECH, for instance) or for 100% completion.
Enemy Traits: Some RPGs allow you to learn your opponent's abilities, so you seek out an enemy who has it. However, this isn't solely related to that - you may want to experience a certain effect of the enemy's attack, maybe you even want that enemy to fight on your side.
???: Feel free to mention any kind of grinding I haven't covered yet.
What shouldn't be discussed is whether grinding itself is good or bad, but rather which aspects of grinding are and why grinding is fun in one game and not in another.
To have some discussion basis, I provide a few things people commonly grind for:
Levels: Probably the most iconic form of grinding. As most RPGs provide Experience Points for battling, some players choose to fight enemies frequently to be able to increase their levels with them. With that, there's usually a stat increase that improves your odds against the enemies. While beating enemies can be done indefinitely, most games provide a level cap that makes further grinding for experience points useless.
Money: Mostly related to the above. This time, you look for a resource you can spend on consumables and equipment. Money grinding inherently has diminishing returns as you buy the good weapons and armor and only have consumables to spend it on. However, large reserves may be useful for later use.
Boosts: Levelling up doesn't just give you stats - sometimes, the desired result for grinding is a new skill or even a new form (Pokémon and Fire Emblem have that). This is generally more limited than levels, as those boosts tend to be less frequent.
Common Drops: Repeatedly beating an enemy that drops a certain item often or always. Usually, it is required to collect several of those to complete a quest, finish a crafting recipe or simply stockpile them as they're usable in battle.
Rare Drops: Related to the above. On the plus side, you only need one of these items. The catch is that the enemy only drops this very rarely. Most of the time, this is a powerful piece of equipment.
Rare Enemies: Kinda like the above. But instead of a rare item, this very enemy shows up rarely. It is often searched for one of the above, a fun battle (WarMECH, for instance) or for 100% completion.
Enemy Traits: Some RPGs allow you to learn your opponent's abilities, so you seek out an enemy who has it. However, this isn't solely related to that - you may want to experience a certain effect of the enemy's attack, maybe you even want that enemy to fight on your side.
???: Feel free to mention any kind of grinding I haven't covered yet.
author=LightningLord2
I'm probably gonna get a warning for thread necroing
We don't care about thread necroing if it is relevant. I mean discussing grinding is always relevant isn't it? But then again, a fresh start with new members might be a more open way of discusisng the topic.
Also, as to why grinding is fun for me, I'm a hoarder and a completionist, and spending time with my beloved characters whacking away at enemies while collecting interesting items and building the characters feels very good. I never do it when grinding only offers levels and potions though, that's dreadful.
Grinding in the harvest Moon style, I could do for hours-- have, done for hours, with no regrets.
Just make it addictive in some way and you've got me grinding gillions. I think grinding being a necessity unless it's a game thats based around that is bad. Like in Harvest Moon it works because it isn't the sort of game with a large overarching plot. All the plot elements are pretty static.
I'll do a more in-depth think and thesis on this later, I've got school tomorrow so I don't have time to get into this.
Just make it addictive in some way and you've got me grinding gillions. I think grinding being a necessity unless it's a game thats based around that is bad. Like in Harvest Moon it works because it isn't the sort of game with a large overarching plot. All the plot elements are pretty static.
I'll do a more in-depth think and thesis on this later, I've got school tomorrow so I don't have time to get into this.
I actually love it. As long as two things (seeming contradictions) are in place.
- The player feels that the grind is worth it. Grind should also result in fast leveling. If you spend more than an hour leveling to 10, something is wrong with your grind. So levels should be doable, and you should get definite perks for leveling (more skills, etc). I have seen too many games, where people hate grind to the point that not only is it not present, but it has no point, since levels don't add much to stats.
- As much as you level, it should never reduce a challenge to a non challenge. That is, rats at level 1 hit for 5-50 damage, but poison is 10% hp. At level 99, rats still do 5-50 damage (out of 9999) BUT POISON IS 10% HP! At the beginning of the game, the bigger issue was the flat attack, and the poison was maybe 9 damage out of 99; still deadly, but something you didn't have to worry about short of an antidote. Now each turn under poison needs a high potion at least to heal outside backtracking to the inn. Bosses should have tactics that take stuff like this into account, representing a challenge at any level.
author=BowelMovement
Just make it addictive in some way and you've got me grinding gillions.
This. This right here.
If the gameplay is programmed well enough (e.g., any of the Mana games; I spent so much time in those games just fighting random enemies and it was always fun) and you get plenty of bonuses for each/every other level, I have no problem grinding whatsoever. It's when the combat is unchanging and stagnant where it becomes a problem, imo.
LightningLord2
230
Making a Skinner box is one way to engage the player, but it's an approach I find highly unethical. Exciting is fun, addictive is when you can't enjoy it but do it anyways.
I disagree with that, LL. Addictive can be a lot of fun. It's how you make it that matters, not the actual job' you're doing. If you have a peppy tune, an interesting battle system and fast, challenging battles, then you'll have fun killing 20 sheep. If you've boring music, annoying skills and enemies that are badly balanced, then it becomes a hassle.
You can have addictive play with fun. You can have addictive play with no fun. Addictive play, by itself, isn't a bad thing.
You can have addictive play with fun. You can have addictive play with no fun. Addictive play, by itself, isn't a bad thing.
LightningLord2
230
Personally, I believe the grind is fun when it feels natural to get the goodies and boost yourself. It becomes a problem when you have to go out of your way to do this, though exploring a branched path is still alright to me.
Infinite
2103
Well, my definition of "grinding" is running in circles waiting for random encounters... I think it's flawed design in some scenarios. In a game like Pokemon, when you're looking to catch a certain Pokemon it's fair, but when you need to level up to beat a Gym leader, it sucks. Being forced to grind to make progress is not fun. If it's to achieve some type of side goal, then it's not as bad.
Mysticphoenix
411
Grinding for ranking. Some online game will rank players who killed the most specific type of enemy.
Rine
1378
I'm a bit mixed on grinding. I have played games where I loathed the game for making me grind, and I have played games where I grinded intentionally and enjoyed it. Three major things come to mind:
A) If the grinding is forced for the story, for no other reason than 'you need bigger numbers to beat this story boss', its an immediate huge strike against the game. Excepting games where that is the point entirely (Disgaea), a typical JRPG should be balanced well enough that any competent player can fight almost every random encounter, do a few sidequests, and never have to grind. This is one of the reasons I find it insanely hard to go back to old dragon quest or final fantasy games. The NES days tended to be purely 'grind till you can go to the next area, grind till you can buy your stuff, grind till you can beat the boss'. The first time they got it right was FFIV, where if you play straight through and go to the final boss without running from many encounters, he's very doable. If you do the sidequests for all the best stuff, he's still hard but easier.
B) Grinding to enable a tactic is however, for me at least, much more fun. The newer SMT games tend to do this well, as you can see what is ahead of you demon wise (IE, I have two more levels until I can get this new demon fusion), so you know you have a set goal to work towards. It also does help that levels give you more than just numbers, and you need more than just numbers to win. Your team is good, but the newest boss uses lightning, and the only healer demon you have is weak to lightning...but if you get two more levels, you can fuse a new healer demon who is immune to lightning. Final Fantasy Tactics, and the A series also do this, as you either are levelling up to get new jobs/skills, or you're doing side quests while you do so. Those are goals I can grind behind.
C) Games that are intended to have grinding, but let you figure out cool tricks and give you places specifically for that though, tend to be much easier for me to adjust to. These tend to be the games where you can get huge numbers, and have all kinds of optional bosses to wreck for fun. Disgaea again is a good example. These are the kind of games I tend to play, put on a podcast, and zone out for a while. No real need to think too hard, but I know I can do this route, level up, or do one more dungeon run. Especially if a good grinding run can be done in a short sitting, I can get one through while home for lunch, or with a short time left before work.
Edit: I know it gets plenty of love, but I really should mention Chrono Trigger is another game that does balancing very well. You pretty much never need to grind for that game, even for the optional stuff. Everything is very well balanced, and enemies are dangerous but not too much so until you get to NG+. Even on NG++++etc, Lavos is still a bit dangerous, and you have the extra challenge of trying to do it at certain times/certain teams.
A) If the grinding is forced for the story, for no other reason than 'you need bigger numbers to beat this story boss', its an immediate huge strike against the game. Excepting games where that is the point entirely (Disgaea), a typical JRPG should be balanced well enough that any competent player can fight almost every random encounter, do a few sidequests, and never have to grind. This is one of the reasons I find it insanely hard to go back to old dragon quest or final fantasy games. The NES days tended to be purely 'grind till you can go to the next area, grind till you can buy your stuff, grind till you can beat the boss'. The first time they got it right was FFIV, where if you play straight through and go to the final boss without running from many encounters, he's very doable. If you do the sidequests for all the best stuff, he's still hard but easier.
B) Grinding to enable a tactic is however, for me at least, much more fun. The newer SMT games tend to do this well, as you can see what is ahead of you demon wise (IE, I have two more levels until I can get this new demon fusion), so you know you have a set goal to work towards. It also does help that levels give you more than just numbers, and you need more than just numbers to win. Your team is good, but the newest boss uses lightning, and the only healer demon you have is weak to lightning...but if you get two more levels, you can fuse a new healer demon who is immune to lightning. Final Fantasy Tactics, and the A series also do this, as you either are levelling up to get new jobs/skills, or you're doing side quests while you do so. Those are goals I can grind behind.
C) Games that are intended to have grinding, but let you figure out cool tricks and give you places specifically for that though, tend to be much easier for me to adjust to. These tend to be the games where you can get huge numbers, and have all kinds of optional bosses to wreck for fun. Disgaea again is a good example. These are the kind of games I tend to play, put on a podcast, and zone out for a while. No real need to think too hard, but I know I can do this route, level up, or do one more dungeon run. Especially if a good grinding run can be done in a short sitting, I can get one through while home for lunch, or with a short time left before work.
Edit: I know it gets plenty of love, but I really should mention Chrono Trigger is another game that does balancing very well. You pretty much never need to grind for that game, even for the optional stuff. Everything is very well balanced, and enemies are dangerous but not too much so until you get to NG+. Even on NG++++etc, Lavos is still a bit dangerous, and you have the extra challenge of trying to do it at certain times/certain teams.
emmych
817
I hate grinding when it's mandatory and slotted into the game. If I fight every encounter I bump into while going from point A to point B, I should be able to beat the boss at point B. If I have to stop and grind for thirty minutes because the game is built that way, I get frustrated and stop wanting to play the game. If I have to stop and grind for thirty minutes because I'm BAD at the game, then, well, that's fine.
But yeah. Grinding is something I'm chill with so long as I'm making the choice to grind, not because it's a scheduled part of the game.
But yeah. Grinding is something I'm chill with so long as I'm making the choice to grind, not because it's a scheduled part of the game.
LightningLord2
230
I made the observation that, in most games, a forced grind is a result of shallow gameplay rather than poor progression. In games with a good amount of depth, you can use a simple (or sometimes very convoluted) strategy to bypass the high stats of a boss most of the time.
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