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CHALLENGING RPGS - WHERE ARE THEY?
Posts
LightningLord2
230
LightningLord2
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CloseI'm not here to discuss the things I liked about difficult RPGs or things they should do better - I'm here because I got absolutely nothing. RPGs I play are either highly challenging or fun, but never both.
Just to let you know, here's a short rundown of games you don't need to mention:
Dark Souls: Action combat ain't my thing, plus, terrible online interaction.
Darkest Dungeon: Too easy overall, battles are mostly dps races.
Disgaea: Combat is too much on numbers over skill.
Final Fantasy Tactics: Takes too long to get interesting classes and skills.
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: Doesn't fix any problems of the above and adds a new layer of suck on top of that.
Lords of Xulima: Too heavy on memorization and pixel hunting gameplay.
Nethack: Requires you to memorize the entire game to be good at it.
Also, any of these game categories unless the game makes a large effort to avoid the common flaws:
DOS-based RPGs: The resolution is too low to see anything.
ASCII graphic games: Similar to the above, it's too hard to recognize things.
Roguelikes: Too many luck factors, especially the ID game (if it's based on memorization, it still applies)
Fire Emblem: Permadeath punishes unit losses so harshly that tons of strategies become completely unviable. Awakening has Casual Mode, but no map variety and terrible balance.
Shining Force: Battles take way too long.
Pokémon Fangames: I like the main games, but most Fangames have a cringe-worthy plot and potentially other terrible flaws (copypast environments, narrative dissonance, lack of orientation and legend overdose are all things I encountered).
Just to let you know, here's a short rundown of games you don't need to mention:
Dark Souls: Action combat ain't my thing, plus, terrible online interaction.
Darkest Dungeon: Too easy overall, battles are mostly dps races.
Disgaea: Combat is too much on numbers over skill.
Final Fantasy Tactics: Takes too long to get interesting classes and skills.
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: Doesn't fix any problems of the above and adds a new layer of suck on top of that.
Lords of Xulima: Too heavy on memorization and pixel hunting gameplay.
Nethack: Requires you to memorize the entire game to be good at it.
Also, any of these game categories unless the game makes a large effort to avoid the common flaws:
DOS-based RPGs: The resolution is too low to see anything.
ASCII graphic games: Similar to the above, it's too hard to recognize things.
Roguelikes: Too many luck factors, especially the ID game (if it's based on memorization, it still applies)
Fire Emblem: Permadeath punishes unit losses so harshly that tons of strategies become completely unviable. Awakening has Casual Mode, but no map variety and terrible balance.
Shining Force: Battles take way too long.
Pokémon Fangames: I like the main games, but most Fangames have a cringe-worthy plot and potentially other terrible flaws (copypast environments, narrative dissonance, lack of orientation and legend overdose are all things I encountered).
Darken
3952
Any of the PS2 SMT games like Nocturne. Which I'm surprised you haven't brought up.
I think it's hard to make an RPG hard esp if it's turn based because it's just a matter of bullshit rng or pure knowledge about the mechanics. Once you know a couple things about how a game works you can render it easy every time. At least with action games you're pitting knowledge and skill together to be pretty convincing to at least require practice.
I think it's hard to make an RPG hard esp if it's turn based because it's just a matter of bullshit rng or pure knowledge about the mechanics. Once you know a couple things about how a game works you can render it easy every time. At least with action games you're pitting knowledge and skill together to be pretty convincing to at least require practice.
Yeah, seconding Nocturne, which is hard and a really awesome game, IMO. As for RPG Maker games, Soul Shepherd, while incomplete, is pretty darn challenging :D
I can't really recommend SMT games except Devil Survivor 2. They're normally just full of enemies with too much Strength stat until you figure out that anything with Almighty breaks the game open -- and any suparbaws fights are complete and utter bullshit. SMT is basically "hey look, elemental weaknesses exist! cool huh! lol let's take that away during the last 1/5 of each game"
(EDIT: i can't really recommend SMT games AS DIFFICULT, WELL-DESIGNED GAMES. many are worth playing for the experience of playing them, however!)
Grandia 3 starts off kinda easy but ramps up the difficulty over time -- and has the mechanics/depth to pull it off. The story is so bad it's funny but the characters and scenarios are goofy enough to be enjoyable.
It's one of my favorite PS2 games, partially because of how much skill you have to show to come out victorious. Ack, I love this game!
It's like Chrono Trigger and FFX had a baby. Huuahhhh! I feel the power!
Last Scenario is moderately challenging throughout, but where it really shines is oodles and oodles of post-game content that enhance the narrative while offering a chance to really show your skills. And don't worry -- the final boss is still a tough cookie even if you're L99. I know from experience.
Also, it's free!
Rance 7/Sengoku Rance is a porno/hentai game for straight men. I (and, coincidentally, some other gay friends of mine) love this game and find it an inspiration for my (our) own projects. So, if you're 18+ and don't mind a ninja catgirl pulling a vial of poison out of her vagina, I highly recommend this turn-based strategy/jrpg hybrid.
Seriously, if you can handle (or enjoy) the porn and an incredibly dark story, then I highly recommend this game. It's one of the best strategy games I've played. It has the social aspects of Persona mixed with complex battles and an intriguing, non-linear narrative.
(EDIT: i can't really recommend SMT games AS DIFFICULT, WELL-DESIGNED GAMES. many are worth playing for the experience of playing them, however!)
Grandia 3 starts off kinda easy but ramps up the difficulty over time -- and has the mechanics/depth to pull it off. The story is so bad it's funny but the characters and scenarios are goofy enough to be enjoyable.
It's one of my favorite PS2 games, partially because of how much skill you have to show to come out victorious. Ack, I love this game!
It's like Chrono Trigger and FFX had a baby. Huuahhhh! I feel the power!
Last Scenario is moderately challenging throughout, but where it really shines is oodles and oodles of post-game content that enhance the narrative while offering a chance to really show your skills. And don't worry -- the final boss is still a tough cookie even if you're L99. I know from experience.
Also, it's free!
Rance 7/Sengoku Rance is a porno/hentai game for straight men. I (and, coincidentally, some other gay friends of mine) love this game and find it an inspiration for my (our) own projects. So, if you're 18+ and don't mind a ninja catgirl pulling a vial of poison out of her vagina, I highly recommend this turn-based strategy/jrpg hybrid.
Seriously, if you can handle (or enjoy) the porn and an incredibly dark story, then I highly recommend this game. It's one of the best strategy games I've played. It has the social aspects of Persona mixed with complex battles and an intriguing, non-linear narrative.
Rine
1378
I will have to disagree with some of the assertions about SMT games not being challengingly fun. I tend to enjoy them oodles as well as having a serious challenge from them. The main-lines (Nocturne, Strange Journey, 4) tend to focus more on building a balanced team as opposed to just leveling up, especially since levels don't improve you that much, and demons level up much slower.
I will second Sengoku Rance, as well as another Alicesoft game, Big Bang Age, as great tactical RPGs. Big Bang Age has far more management difficulty and resource juggling, so probably best to start with Rance between the two.
Another great series, especially its 3rd and 4th incarnations, is Epic Battle Fantasy. Tends to mostly balance towards elemental damage/skill combos than pure stats, and each fight tends to be a small puzzle as to what to use to kill them efficiently/without using up too many items. Adjustable difficulty also lets you take on true challenges on Epic, without being utterly broken.
Last set I'll mention is RSPOD (aka, the penny arcade games), 3/4. They both utilize limited non-random fights, and very well designed combat systems that require absolute mastery to beat beyond the normal difficulties, but not pure optimization or stats. A lot of it tends to be learning the timing system, and balancing recurring effects with straight damage. It also heavily encourages you to come up with combos of classes/monsters. In the same vein, but a little more stat based, Cthulhu Saves the World is amazingly fun and pretty difficult without being stupid on higher settings. Plus limited random encounters unless you want them.
I will second Sengoku Rance, as well as another Alicesoft game, Big Bang Age, as great tactical RPGs. Big Bang Age has far more management difficulty and resource juggling, so probably best to start with Rance between the two.
Another great series, especially its 3rd and 4th incarnations, is Epic Battle Fantasy. Tends to mostly balance towards elemental damage/skill combos than pure stats, and each fight tends to be a small puzzle as to what to use to kill them efficiently/without using up too many items. Adjustable difficulty also lets you take on true challenges on Epic, without being utterly broken.
Last set I'll mention is RSPOD (aka, the penny arcade games), 3/4. They both utilize limited non-random fights, and very well designed combat systems that require absolute mastery to beat beyond the normal difficulties, but not pure optimization or stats. A lot of it tends to be learning the timing system, and balancing recurring effects with straight damage. It also heavily encourages you to come up with combos of classes/monsters. In the same vein, but a little more stat based, Cthulhu Saves the World is amazingly fun and pretty difficult without being stupid on higher settings. Plus limited random encounters unless you want them.
They're challenging on only a superficial level. Debuff them, hit them with a weakness or almighty. =| Strange Journey has great music but that's about it... those horrible dungeons... still, if I have any sort of "waifu" it would be the SJ main character's eyebrows.
I liked Epic Battle Fantasy 2/3 a lot but 4 didn't capture me. The BATTLE part was great in the previous installments... I didn't need to wander around.
Cthulhu Saves the World and Breath of Death IV (all by the same group, also did the penny arcade games mentioned too I think, but I never played those) are pretty decent games but I never beat them. Take that as you will.
I liked Epic Battle Fantasy 2/3 a lot but 4 didn't capture me. The BATTLE part was great in the previous installments... I didn't need to wander around.
Cthulhu Saves the World and Breath of Death IV (all by the same group, also did the penny arcade games mentioned too I think, but I never played those) are pretty decent games but I never beat them. Take that as you will.
LightningLord2
230
I played a ton of Epic Battle Fantasy 4 - but bear in mind that any difficulty below "epic" does not truly bring out the challenge of the game.
For SMT games, they seem to be more interesting on a narrative perspective, have a cool soundtrack or both. Also, the challenge seems to be more on party building than actually battling (I don't like making battles less relevant, but the fusion system in SMT is awesome).
I played Soul Shepherd already - while the skill building is cool, I easily find myself bottlenecked because I can't get the random enemies to drop new souls.
Sengoku Rance could possibly be worth looking into - I don't think I can easily access it, though. I already know that I can look into eroges, since I played Shrink High (which is mostly on exploration, though).
Grandia 3 and Last Scenario are interesting - though I didn't have the best experience with Playstation RPGs so far (GBA is Tactical RPG Master Race).
The Penny Arcade game looks iffy because of a timed hits mechanic, Cthulhu Saves the World looks rather meh overall and Breath of Death VII already sounds like it's going to ride on clichés that don't exist outside of JRPG parodies.
For SMT games, they seem to be more interesting on a narrative perspective, have a cool soundtrack or both. Also, the challenge seems to be more on party building than actually battling (I don't like making battles less relevant, but the fusion system in SMT is awesome).
I played Soul Shepherd already - while the skill building is cool, I easily find myself bottlenecked because I can't get the random enemies to drop new souls.
Sengoku Rance could possibly be worth looking into - I don't think I can easily access it, though. I already know that I can look into eroges, since I played Shrink High (which is mostly on exploration, though).
Grandia 3 and Last Scenario are interesting - though I didn't have the best experience with Playstation RPGs so far (GBA is Tactical RPG Master Race).
The Penny Arcade game looks iffy because of a timed hits mechanic, Cthulhu Saves the World looks rather meh overall and Breath of Death VII already sounds like it's going to ride on clichés that don't exist outside of JRPG parodies.
Shinan
4314
Crusader Kings 2 is pretty challenging. Depending on what you set as your end goal. (and your starting location)
Temple of Elemental Evil was pretty challenging the bits I played of it. I assume it falls into the trap of many games based on DnD in that it becomes easier over time (see also: Any Infinity Engine game)
Xenonauts on a higher difficulty is really hard. (it's no cakewalk on easier difficulties either, but a lot more manageable, for me, who doesn't do challenge very well)
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl is pretty challenging and there's loads of scary moments that come from the fact that you are not sure that you can get out of a situation alive.
Temple of Elemental Evil was pretty challenging the bits I played of it. I assume it falls into the trap of many games based on DnD in that it becomes easier over time (see also: Any Infinity Engine game)
Xenonauts on a higher difficulty is really hard. (it's no cakewalk on easier difficulties either, but a lot more manageable, for me, who doesn't do challenge very well)
S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Shadow of Chernobyl is pretty challenging and there's loads of scary moments that come from the fact that you are not sure that you can get out of a situation alive.
Rine
1378
@LL2: The Penny Arcade games only have timed hits in 1/2, 3/4 are by a completely different company and are completely different in style. Zeboyd games also does Cthulhu saves the world and BODVII
LightningLord2
230
@Shinan: ToEE was extremely lackluster in most parts. The only notable thing it had that it was actually faithful to D&D in being truly turn-based. S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and Crusader Kings don't really fit the bill on what kind of game I'm looking for. Xenonauts however looks great and I want to try it in the future.
@Sated: I haven't really looked into those particular RM games, except Legionwood 2 - I stopped playing after getting stuck somewhere after the first boss, at which point the game still hasn't given me a single interesting thing about the characters.
@Sated: I haven't really looked into those particular RM games, except Legionwood 2 - I stopped playing after getting stuck somewhere after the first boss, at which point the game still hasn't given me a single interesting thing about the characters.
http://www.insanedifficulty.com/board/index.php?/files/category/1-mods/
this is a wonderful site for those craving a challenging RPG, or just a good reason to replay a favorite with a fresh experience
these mods/patches are thoughtful rebalances that change item functions, boss scripting, character moves, and anything else mechanically that will cause the game to demand thoughtful application of player tools to overcome the game's obstacles. you will never need to fight even 1 more battle than you would normally encounter. and the stories remain unaltered.
important to note is that these aren't like those awful romhacks where some guy just quadrupled all the monster stats so the only 'challenge' is how much you're willing to grind to get back on parity
for some of these mods, years of thought, editing, and playtesting go into them
ones i've checked out so far;
FF6 "Brave New World" - complete and still being updated. esper bonuses disassociated from levels. character 'builds' become very important with stats, equipment, magic, etc. the version I played 2 years ago was satisfying but the difficulty fell off a bit towards the end, possibly addressed by now
Chrono Trigger "Lavos' Awakening" - required stretching of player skill to the limit of CT's systems, ability to solve problems in boss fights with constantly adapting team comps, turn timing, ability usage, etc. Memorably, I tried 5 completely different approaches to fighting queen zeal's first form before I won
there's one annoying little oversight with the dragon tank's tuning at the beginning of the game where it's impossible below around level 8 iirc but the rest of the game and all these other mods don't require grinding at any point otherwise. i may have been skipping a bunch of encounters anyway
FF7 Hard Type - didn't play this one myself but a friend who I trust said it was good
FFX International - Punishment - currently playing this, makes a sleepwalk game appropriately hard but unlike the other mods random battles get tedious sometimes. wouldn't necessarily recommend as a challenge run but it's better than the original game. i don't really know if this game can ever get that interesting lol
Symphony of the Night - this game was such a joke that a hard patch kind of just bumps it up to 'normal mode', which is better than it was before
Xenosaga II - this game and Xenosaga 1 were already much harder than regular RPGs in their vanilla states and I particularly enjoy the battle system in 1. I've played through the first disc hard patch of 2 and it's nice. Looking forward to getting wasted by Orgula on disc 2
FFT 1.3 - this is the most famous one. features full class redesigns - for example archers get skills like 'interrupt shot' that actually do useful things instead of charge +1 charge +2 etc.
again the original game can be sleepwalked through. i am normally against the combination of fft-levels of rng and difficulty because lol just reload until the game lets you win with the same inputs BUT...
a certain amount of RNG in a team role-based game like FFT can test one's ability to build redundancies and contingencies and adaptability into their teams, so players who get extremely good at 1.3, and i mean extremely freaking good, can beat any map first try. this is the only game i've ever legitimately been unable to clear, although I haven't given up yet, just haven't had the time to really crack into the later maps.
Final Fantasy XII International - this one isn't a mod, but the international version has been fan translated and it features a redesigned license board and a built-in "Level 1 Hard Mode" similar to Igarashi's DS Castlevanias. It might be worth investigating
i play all this stuff instead of the garbage the industry vomits out these days XD
this is a wonderful site for those craving a challenging RPG, or just a good reason to replay a favorite with a fresh experience
these mods/patches are thoughtful rebalances that change item functions, boss scripting, character moves, and anything else mechanically that will cause the game to demand thoughtful application of player tools to overcome the game's obstacles. you will never need to fight even 1 more battle than you would normally encounter. and the stories remain unaltered.
important to note is that these aren't like those awful romhacks where some guy just quadrupled all the monster stats so the only 'challenge' is how much you're willing to grind to get back on parity
for some of these mods, years of thought, editing, and playtesting go into them
ones i've checked out so far;
FF6 "Brave New World" - complete and still being updated. esper bonuses disassociated from levels. character 'builds' become very important with stats, equipment, magic, etc. the version I played 2 years ago was satisfying but the difficulty fell off a bit towards the end, possibly addressed by now
Chrono Trigger "Lavos' Awakening" - required stretching of player skill to the limit of CT's systems, ability to solve problems in boss fights with constantly adapting team comps, turn timing, ability usage, etc. Memorably, I tried 5 completely different approaches to fighting queen zeal's first form before I won
there's one annoying little oversight with the dragon tank's tuning at the beginning of the game where it's impossible below around level 8 iirc but the rest of the game and all these other mods don't require grinding at any point otherwise. i may have been skipping a bunch of encounters anyway
FF7 Hard Type - didn't play this one myself but a friend who I trust said it was good
FFX International - Punishment - currently playing this, makes a sleepwalk game appropriately hard but unlike the other mods random battles get tedious sometimes. wouldn't necessarily recommend as a challenge run but it's better than the original game. i don't really know if this game can ever get that interesting lol
Symphony of the Night - this game was such a joke that a hard patch kind of just bumps it up to 'normal mode', which is better than it was before
Xenosaga II - this game and Xenosaga 1 were already much harder than regular RPGs in their vanilla states and I particularly enjoy the battle system in 1. I've played through the first disc hard patch of 2 and it's nice. Looking forward to getting wasted by Orgula on disc 2
FFT 1.3 - this is the most famous one. features full class redesigns - for example archers get skills like 'interrupt shot' that actually do useful things instead of charge +1 charge +2 etc.
again the original game can be sleepwalked through. i am normally against the combination of fft-levels of rng and difficulty because lol just reload until the game lets you win with the same inputs BUT...
a certain amount of RNG in a team role-based game like FFT can test one's ability to build redundancies and contingencies and adaptability into their teams, so players who get extremely good at 1.3, and i mean extremely freaking good, can beat any map first try. this is the only game i've ever legitimately been unable to clear, although I haven't given up yet, just haven't had the time to really crack into the later maps.
Final Fantasy XII International - this one isn't a mod, but the international version has been fan translated and it features a redesigned license board and a built-in "Level 1 Hard Mode" similar to Igarashi's DS Castlevanias. It might be worth investigating
i play all this stuff instead of the garbage the industry vomits out these days XD
I found my ass handed to me several times in Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II, even when I cheated a bit (for extra gold to buy decent equipment). Both have been re-released as Enhanced Editions, too. Pillars of Eternity is a new game of the same ilk, but I haven't bought it yet.
Diablo II Hell difficulty can be challenging, especially if you are lacking in elemental resistances, or are lacking in elemental or magical damage. But is an 'action roguelike' so you probably won't like it.
KOTOR I and II can have moderate challenge, but that can be overcome with careful min/maxing, so it might not be satisfying if you're not into that.
Diablo II Hell difficulty can be challenging, especially if you are lacking in elemental resistances, or are lacking in elemental or magical damage. But is an 'action roguelike' so you probably won't like it.
KOTOR I and II can have moderate challenge, but that can be overcome with careful min/maxing, so it might not be satisfying if you're not into that.
amerk
2539
The first Final Fantasy was a challenge, mainly because of the system's limitations and it was my first endeavor into playing an actual TB rpg. But even a veteran could find it challenging to some degree:
1. Lack of saves (only in towns and maybe tents or houses?)
2. Being able to wander into an area of tough monsters you are not equipped or leveled up enough to handle (you got the airship early on and was probably a bit more open and less linear than most others in the series)
3. You could set yourself up with a challenging class (all white mages)
Otherwise, the only other one I've grown frustrated with over time was the NES port remake of Final Fantasy III for the DS, but that was for all the wrong reasons.
1. Lack of saves (only in towns and maybe tents or houses?)
2. Being able to wander into an area of tough monsters you are not equipped or leveled up enough to handle (you got the airship early on and was probably a bit more open and less linear than most others in the series)
3. You could set yourself up with a challenging class (all white mages)
Otherwise, the only other one I've grown frustrated with over time was the NES port remake of Final Fantasy III for the DS, but that was for all the wrong reasons.
author=amerk
The first Final Fantasy was a challenge, mainly because of the system's limitations and it was my first endeavor into playing an actual TB rpg. But even a veteran could find it challenging to some degree:
1. Lack of saves (only in towns and maybe tents or houses?)
2. Being able to wander into an area of tough monsters you are not equipped or leveled up enough to handle (you got the airship early on and was probably a bit more open and less linear than most others in the series)
3. You could set yourself up with a challenging class (all white mages)
Otherwise, the only other one I've grown frustrated with over time was the NES port remake of Final Fantasy III for the DS, but that was for all the wrong reasons.
On that note, the first Dragon Quest really challenges your patience.
amerk
2539
Yes, the first DQ was probably the most grindiest rpg I've ever played, down to this day, which is sad, because it was also one of the shortest in terms of content.
author=amerk
Yes, the first DQ was probably the most grindiest rpg I've ever played, down to this day, which is sad, because it was also one of the shortest in terms of content.
I'm kind of mixed about DQs grinding. It handled it in a way that was deliberate and not so much an oversight. The game is at least forgiving with how you don't really lose progress after death. It was kind of designed like an MMO before the genre existed.
