ROLL THE BONES ~ GACHA IN (TRULY) FREE GAMES

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Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15170
I play a few games with a "gacha," or a lottery you feed premium currency into for random game power. The two I've played the most over the past two years are Tower of Saviors (basically, the good version of Puzzle and Dragons) and Final Fantasy: Record Keeper.

In ToS, you get a playable monster from a giant pool from the gacha; all of the monsters are generally usable and are all considered the same rarity (that said, a few specific monster sets have a slightly lower pull rate than others; there are sometimes events that make them a more common draw). In FFRK, you get 3* or 4* equipment (meh/acceptable, respectively) from a wide pool but then have a ~10% chance each roll to get really good 5* equipment from the specific banner you're rolling on. For example, during the current Shadow from FF6 event, one banner has a few new and old FF6 5*s, including Shadow's unique item. The other banner has a few shared items, but is the only way to get Mog's unique item (but not Shadow's).

Understandably, I think, I prefer ToS's method. An argument could be made for pulling on banners to get exactly the sort of stuff you want, but they're only available for 7-10 days at a time... so I'm still not sold.

Anyway, let's say you wanted to make a truly free (not freemium) RPG with a gacha. How would you design it? Would it be how you get characters and their skillets? Would you only get equipment or special items from it? Would you have a normal linear RPG setup, or would it be more of a "boss rush" style of game? How would you gain the currency used? Would it replace any traditional RPG systems (i.e. no normal shops, only the gacha) or be independent? I'm curious to hear your thoughts!
Having a machine that lets you buy a random item could be interesting, as long as it's not too important to the game.

Since the player is not paying real money, you can get away with giving lower-quality prizes more often. Paying 200 gold (one or two random encounters' worth) for a gacha play only to get a Potion is reasonable. Paying 1$ real cash only to get a Potion sucks.

My idea would be a choice of 3 machines. Machine A costs 200 gold and randomly gives (from most to least common) a Potion, Hi-Potion, Elixir, or Rare equipment. Machine B costs 1000 gold and gives a Max Potion, Elixir, Rare equipment, or a permanent stat booster. Machine C costs 5000 gold and either gives Rare equipment, Legendary equipment, Permanent stat booster, or Ultimate equipment. The more expensive machines have a higher chance of giving rarer prizes. Also, I made up all these numbers so change them if you think they're unbalanced.

The gachas should not require too many plays to get everything, since they don't cost premium currency and therefore you don't stand to gain anything from having players repeatedly use them. Forcing players to spend 10 hours grinding for gold so they can play the most expensive gacha 1000 times until they get the Ultimate Sword required for 100% completion is not fun, but getting a sword that is 2X stronger than what the player should have early on in the game can be interesting.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
Many freemium games have other more reliable ways of getting stuff, and then let players use these gacha systems as a way to augment their power beyond what they'd normally get, at the cost of dollars. In Age of Ishtaria (RPG where you collect an army of waifus) for example, you can draw waifus from the gacha, but every event also has at least one top-tier waifu you can earn through proper gameplay, and several lower-tier characters.

Final Fantasy Record Keeper, notably, essentially includes no methods at all of getting top-tier equipment other than the gacha machine. This is extremely irritating.

I think FFRK's method would translate very poorly to a truly free game. The player's inability to succeed purely through their own effort does not create compelling gameplay. The game is set up that way to intentionally frustrate them in order to get their cash. However, the method that Age of Ishtaria uses makes more sense to me in a free game - include lots of the same normal skill-based and grind-based methods of getting upgrades that are already present in all RPGs, and then let the player have the luck-based method on top to augment it. This changes the player's expectations of the system from "I need to roll well on this gacha system to do well at the game" to "If I get lucky at this gacha system I can skip doing work in a different part of the game."

A game that actually does this is Diablo 3. After beating the game at max level, the player can go into Adventure Mode where they earn a special currency (blood shards) by doing various randomized tasks. This special currency can be spent to buy random items. The player has some limited control over what type of item they're buying, but not over how good it is. The fact that everything else in Diablo 3 is also randomized helps this system feel right at home - it would perhaps be less welcome in a game that had less in common with roguelikes. I can't possibly imagine the system making much sense in a linear JRPG with linear upgrades.
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
One of the more loathsome aspects of the gatcha is the act of "re-rolling." The super whalebait freemium games in Japan like PAD, Monster Strike, and even Terra Battle are pretty notorious for this - if your first "free" pull isn't on a short list of high-tier characters, then you're better off making a new account and starting completely over for another free pull, because some time in the near future, you're going to hit a soft wall where you need that extra leg-up in power to continue progressing without putting real dollars or more time into another attempt.

It's about as dumb as it sounds, but people swear by it. FFRK sort of gets a pass by (since recently) guaranteeing a five star item for your first relic draw.

That said, in a truly free game, the best option to not interfere with gameplay systems will always be the "cosmetics only" approach. It could be clothing items or weapon skins, or even something like what Guild Wars 2 did, where different shades of dye for your armor are treated as distinct, collectible items. I've spent at least an hour in Disgaea 5 just recoloring all my dudes' sprites, so I know I'd personally get hopelessly lost in such a system.
I had planned something like this: You'd start the game and pick three classes of twenty to make up your party. After two or three dungeons you'd recruit a fourth character but the player couldn't choose who. The fourth character/class would be determined by RNG and the original party composition. Each class had a weight based on its intended role(s) and whatever roles the game felt were lacking would be more likely to be picked as your fourth class.

Thinking about it now if I stuck with it I'd probably pick three classes or so and let the player pick which one would be their fourth party member. Each potential class would be its own RNG, maybe two would try to pick a class to fit what the game things you're missing and the third would be weight so that it isn't a similar role as the first two classes to mix it up a bit. Have some RNG hijinx in party composition while still giving the player some input in who the fourth party member is.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15170
LockeZ
A game that actually does this is Diablo 3. After beating the game at max level, the player can go into Adventure Mode where they earn a special currency (blood shards) by doing various randomized tasks. This special currency can be spent to buy random items. The player has some limited control over what type of item they're buying, but not over how good it is. The fact that everything else in Diablo 3 is also randomized helps this system feel right at home - it would perhaps be less welcome in a game that had less in common with roguelikes. I can't possibly imagine the system making much sense in a linear JRPG with linear upgrades.


I totally forgot about blood shards! I agree with everything here.

Deltree
One of the more loathsome aspects of the gatcha is the act of "re-rolling." The super whalebait freemium games in Japan like PAD, Monster Strike, and even Terra Battle are pretty notorious for this - if your first "free" pull isn't on a short list of high-tier characters, then you're better off making a new account and starting completely over for another free pull, because some time in the near future, you're going to hit a soft wall where you need that extra leg-up in power to continue progressing without putting real dollars or more time into another attempt.

It's about as dumb as it sounds, but people swear by it. FFRK sort of gets a pass by (since recently) guaranteeing a five star item for your first relic draw.


Agreed. If I made such a game, I'd make rerolling extremely minimal (i.e. just personal preference) or do a set character from that tutorial roll. I think a great deal of that pressure can be alleviated with a short game that you replay, however, instead of a long-term experience like phone gacha games.

Deltree
That said, in a truly free game, the best option to not interfere with gameplay systems will always be the "cosmetics only" approach. It could be clothing items or weapon skins, or even something like what Guild Wars 2 did, where different shades of dye for your armor are treated as distinct, collectible items. I've spent at least an hour in Disgaea 5 just recoloring all my dudes' sprites, so I know I'd personally get hopelessly lost in such a system.


COWARD That works I guess, but I feel like it could be more interesting than that.

A lot of you are talking about just shoving a gacha into a jrpg and how to minimize the impact. What if you wanted it to have a major impact? How would you design a game around it, without having to fit the typical jrpg flow (and how would you redirect it)?
Deltree
doesn't live here anymore
4556
Well, a simple way would be to have the "FF5 crystals" method, and have a job system that's gated by collectible objects that are distributed randomly. They would have to be unique, interesting, and balanced enough to not fall into power tiers, if that's even possible. Optionally, they could also act as secondary jobs/skillsets that could be equipped by characters alongside their pre-determined primary roles.
Well, I think it has less prevalence in more traditional RPGs because crafting systems fulfill the role of "getting high end items not otherwise obtained in normal play" better than gachas. Farming for rare materials and the crafting what you want is more satisfying/less frustrating than farming for rare currency and rolling for a lucky piece of equipment that might suit your build.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I think, like most randomized systems in semi-linear games, you'd probably want most of these random pulls to be side-grades rather than upgrades.

Here are some ideas:
- Class system starts with 6 classes, with a dozen or more additional unlockable classes. Each class has a number of abilities that can be unlocked by grinding AP. Two types of random pulls: one that unlocks a new job (for the cost of 5 premium currency), and one that gives you a free ability in a random job you've unlocked (for the cost of 1 premium currency). This would help get the player to try a lot of different jobs that they might not necessarily touch under normal circumstances.

- Gacha pulls that give you new sidequests, rather than direct rewards. The sidequests give rewards when completed. With this system it would not be necessary for the rewards to be sidegrades. I really like this idea, assuming the sidequests are JRPG style sidequests that are unique and meaningful and each have their own dungeon, not just "kill five vultures."

- Equipment augment system. The gacha system gives you random gems that can be inserted in your gear for various bonus effects. Functionally this isn't that different from how random item drops from enemies work in a lot of modern RPGs. In order to keep the gacha pull system relevant as the game goes on, perhaps allow them to be combined into higher-quality gems.

- In a JRPG where the player has a large number of characters but can only bring a few with them in battle, create a gacha pull system that gives the player a powerful weapon for one random character. Other non-gacha weapons would be somewhat weaker and also require a lot more effort to obtain. Give the player a free gacha pull at the end of each dungeon, and possibly allow them to grind for one or two more. Instead of the gacha system granting the same rewards throughout the game, it would get new stronger rewards after each dungeon. This would strongly encourage the player to use different characters, since they would have no way to control or predict who would get a bonus weapon in the next dungeon. However a player who was confident could hold onto their currency and then pull a bunch of weapons near the end of the game.
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15170
I actually really like that last idea, lockez, especially for a short RPG (like 5-10 hours). That'd be a fun way to encourage the player to mix things up as the game goes on.

kentona: i get that entirely! this was meant to be more of a thought exercise about reforming the genre as a whole around the idea of a gacha, but i guess either i didn't explain it well or it was just a flop ;V

I just wanted to contribute. :<

But on a serious note, I feel that a gacha has to offer something better, or different, or be less frustrating, than what a crafting system could achieve for the same role. Just something to consider as we come up with a good gacha! and then I will steal the best ideas for my next game
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like the idea of using the randomization to get the player to try stuff they wouldn't normally try. I feel like this works better if the gacha rewards are things that improve or augment specific gameplay styles (like my examples of upgrades to a random job or character).

It can also be used to create replay value though. That's always been one of the key reasons why developers use randomized content.
The gacha sounds similar to random drops from a monster or chest. Instead of the paying the effort to defeat the monster/find the chest, the player pays a currency.

I'd put it into a game where random loot from chests make sense, like a dungeon crawler or rougelike. Chests would contain all categories of items, and the gacha shop would contain the same items and drop rates, but the player got to pick the category (swords, bows, armor, etc).
Craze
why would i heal when i could equip a morningstar
15170
That sounds a lot like Diablo 3's blood shards, Ramshackin... I like it!
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