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EARTH ELEMENT = PHYSICAL DAMAGE
Posts
AtlasAtrium
4079
AtlasAtrium
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CloseI never understood the mechanic of earth spells dealing earth elemental damage in video games. Well, I mean, I understand the MECHANIC, but it never made SENSE. Why would earth have its own elemental damage? Why doesn't it just deal physical damage? You're literally smashing your enemies with rocks, I don't care if you levitated it with a magic spell. It's not like that would suddenly make your warriors useless because they tank and have physical skills that have more effects than simply outputting physical damage. And in cases of a party that happens to have only one or a few physical attack characters, it gives your mage options against enemies who are resistant to magic instead of making them useless for the fight (or at least more options than they had before if you bothered to give them buff/debuff spells)
Does the Earth Element have a place or is it just some nonsensical cog in elemental rock-paper-scissors that nobody wants to discuss or point out?
Does the Earth Element have a place or is it just some nonsensical cog in elemental rock-paper-scissors that nobody wants to discuss or point out?
AtlasAtrium
4079
I appreciate the response but it's a little off topic since the subject in discussion is the necessity of an earth element in RPGs and whether or not the trend makes any sense considering the nature of the spells that utilize that element as a form of attack ^^; but maybe I'm wasting my time and it was just a joke, I don't really know at this point >_>
Dyhalto
7536
Yeah, it makes as much as as Wind being an element. Wind tends to either be physical, by blowing you around, or cold aka Ice damage.
And what's the deal with Water*? It can drown you, which is instant death. It can do Physical damage by eroding you, if the caster's MP lasts a thousand years and you stand still. It can change your state from Not Wet to Wet, if that's a potential hazard (like if you're a Fire Elemental). But realistically, there's no such thing as Water Damage. Unless a storm floods your basement.
*Say it with a Seinfeld voice
And what's the deal with Water*? It can drown you, which is instant death. It can do Physical damage by eroding you, if the caster's MP lasts a thousand years and you stand still. It can change your state from Not Wet to Wet, if that's a potential hazard (like if you're a Fire Elemental). But realistically, there's no such thing as Water Damage. Unless a storm floods your basement.
*Say it with a Seinfeld voice
I think earth gets a bad rap because of the Final Fantasy series. Like, flying enemies just laugh at it, and there's no enemies (that I'm aware of) where it's more effective.
As for how much sense it makes as an element, I guess it depends on how you want to define the term?
As for how much sense it makes as an element, I guess it depends on how you want to define the term?
In that sense, why don't all elements do physical damage? An ice spike is stabbing you the same as a spear. Wind is... uhh, cutting you, I guess, like a sword. Fire and electricity are the only two you could make a strong case for by that logic.
AtlasAtrium
4079
It's not so much about trying to be realistic per se - the other elements have their own properties and interactions that define them (Ice = Good vs Fire Enemies / Wind effective at disrupting and damaging flying enemies / Etc.) Whereas earth has no such properties. It's brute force through and through, much like physical damage.
I would say that Earth should be effective against Earth. Makes it unique and gives it a purpose besides maybe brute damage. Or using it as a general hurt all to the animals and non-magical/elemental enemies.
Also just having it present adds variety to combat and skills. And instead of looking at Earth as a attack element what about making it all defensive buffs or even offensive buffs?
Also just having it present adds variety to combat and skills. And instead of looking at Earth as a attack element what about making it all defensive buffs or even offensive buffs?
I think the elemental aspect of the damage happens on a molecular level:
Fire: Dries things out. Oxidization.
Water: Bursts cells. Saturation.
Air: Creates embolisms. Blowing things apart, filling them with air.
and Earth: Petrification and hardening. Calcification. It could even be decay, like compost.
Fire: Dries things out. Oxidization.
Water: Bursts cells. Saturation.
Air: Creates embolisms. Blowing things apart, filling them with air.
and Earth: Petrification and hardening. Calcification. It could even be decay, like compost.
AtlasAtrium
4079
The reason I didn't mention buffs/debuffs was because those could be derived from just about any type of magic, which is why I was addressing the direct offensive spectrum of Earth magic.
Any discussion beyond that, like Earth vs Earth as you mentioned, is something I'm not too sure about, but maybe it could work? It seems like it starts branching off into circumstantial territory at that point, though I guess that's kind of the direction I'm looking for - if the Earth element does work in some regard, how/why would it work? I can't wrap my head around it being anything other than pure physical.
Some games use them in a very game-y way (I think Pokemon does it? I haven't played a Pokemon game, pls no kill), but I feel like that's a separate topic altogether because of the stylistic (or something or other) choices of those games. Trying not to get too deep into the subjectivity of this though, because a bunch of different stuff starts jumping in and then suddenly the subject matter itself starts turning into wet noodles.
- Edit (to include the above post) -
Mmm, that feels like it's more along the lines of statuses - not that a complex elemental system isn't welcome (you'd probably have quite a bit of explaining to do), but it doesn't really help to explain why Earth should exist as a damage element when Physical makes much more sense (outside of it being a nod to classic game design choices).
Any discussion beyond that, like Earth vs Earth as you mentioned, is something I'm not too sure about, but maybe it could work? It seems like it starts branching off into circumstantial territory at that point, though I guess that's kind of the direction I'm looking for - if the Earth element does work in some regard, how/why would it work? I can't wrap my head around it being anything other than pure physical.
Some games use them in a very game-y way (I think Pokemon does it? I haven't played a Pokemon game, pls no kill), but I feel like that's a separate topic altogether because of the stylistic (or something or other) choices of those games. Trying not to get too deep into the subjectivity of this though, because a bunch of different stuff starts jumping in and then suddenly the subject matter itself starts turning into wet noodles.
- Edit (to include the above post) -
Mmm, that feels like it's more along the lines of statuses - not that a complex elemental system isn't welcome (you'd probably have quite a bit of explaining to do), but it doesn't really help to explain why Earth should exist as a damage element when Physical makes much more sense (outside of it being a nod to classic game design choices).
Um, what? Earth as an element makes complete sense. It's one of the major elements that makes up the planet, and you can deal damage with earthquakes, just as you can with bushfires, hurricanes and tsunamis. That makes a LOT of sense.
Also, I've always seen/used it as strong against either water or wind, depending on your reckoning. I mean, they all make as much sense as each other if you really think about it - water beats fire, sure, but when water is comprised of ice attacks then fire beats 'water'. Wind 'beats' earth by... kicking up a sandstorm? or it beats water by using it as fuel to make a hurricane/tornado - but that's really an amalgamation of the two elements. And water really beats both fire and earth - and amalgamates well with wind. Because it puts out fires but also because of erosion. Oh, and earth is great against fires, btw, but water already has that covered.
That's why I usually add another connotation to the elements in my own games - spell types. Fire is powerful, dangerous, wild spells. Wind is precise and tends to hit more than one target. Water is healing and Earth is protection and buffing. Then I mix 'em together. But that's not all. Then I give them a stat to govern.
Fire is Attack. Earth is Defence. Water is Magic. Wind is Speed.
Also, a thing to keep in mind is that early jRPGs used WOOD instead of Earth, and it worked decently enough. Wood was safe from water and wind but could be destroyed by fire. Thus the elemental 'scales' were:
Wood < Fire < Water < Wind < Wood
Makes a bit more sense, eh? But when the games got translated, Western audiences never counted Wood as an element (even though Eastern audiences had folklore and such that dealt with it being one), so it got changed to the closest 'neighbour', which was Earth. If you think about it, a better term would be Growth - something that earth is a big component of.
Also, I've always seen/used it as strong against either water or wind, depending on your reckoning. I mean, they all make as much sense as each other if you really think about it - water beats fire, sure, but when water is comprised of ice attacks then fire beats 'water'. Wind 'beats' earth by... kicking up a sandstorm? or it beats water by using it as fuel to make a hurricane/tornado - but that's really an amalgamation of the two elements. And water really beats both fire and earth - and amalgamates well with wind. Because it puts out fires but also because of erosion. Oh, and earth is great against fires, btw, but water already has that covered.
That's why I usually add another connotation to the elements in my own games - spell types. Fire is powerful, dangerous, wild spells. Wind is precise and tends to hit more than one target. Water is healing and Earth is protection and buffing. Then I mix 'em together. But that's not all. Then I give them a stat to govern.
Fire is Attack. Earth is Defence. Water is Magic. Wind is Speed.
Also, a thing to keep in mind is that early jRPGs used WOOD instead of Earth, and it worked decently enough. Wood was safe from water and wind but could be destroyed by fire. Thus the elemental 'scales' were:
Wood < Fire < Water < Wind < Wood
Makes a bit more sense, eh? But when the games got translated, Western audiences never counted Wood as an element (even though Eastern audiences had folklore and such that dealt with it being one), so it got changed to the closest 'neighbour', which was Earth. If you think about it, a better term would be Growth - something that earth is a big component of.
AtlasAtrium
4079
I'm putting older games and stylistic game design choices on the backburner for this subject because of its widely accepted use there (and the reasons behind them).
author=LibertyI didn't say that Earth as an element in and of itself didn't make sense, nor that you can't cause damage with Earth - I was specifically addressing how every property of an Earth based -offensive- spell points to it being an attack that deals physical damage, alternative properties like
Um, what? Earth as an element makes complete sense. It's one of the major elements that makes up the planet, and you can deal damage with earthquakes, just as you can with bushfires, hurricanes and tsunamis. That makes a LOT of sense.
author=Libertybeing aside from the point that I was trying to make. People are free to use the elements (Earth or otherwise) however they please and still have it fit nicely in the context of the game, I'm only pointing out that from my perspective, I think that Earth-based damage is better translated as Physical damage because of the previous points I made in the topic (unless you'd like to explain the difference between throwing a rock at someone and hitting them over the head with a club). I'm not getting into the fine details of all the other elemental interactions because they already have definite/established -elemental- properties that Earth does not have when it comes down to -pure offense- essentially: Earth = Defense (Yes) - however, Earth =/= Physical (???).
Fire is Attack. Earth is Defence. Water is Magic. Wind is Speed
author=LibertyThis is more of what I meant. This is an example of an aspect that I pretty much overlooked - you can't put a fire out by hitting it with a sword. As for the wood thing, that's actually pretty interesting, I didn't even know about that until now, nor that that wood was changed to earth in translations.
Oh, and earth is great against fires, btw, but water already has that covered
Merlandese
3235
What if the elemental properties are, like, aspects of a deeper system? Imagine a quad of magical forces that inherently oppose each other, but they have no shape or form, just a sort of magical energy. These are fairly basic, so I'll call them Basics. Now imagine that each of these has two properties:
Property A: Strength Against some other Basic
Property B: Bonds Only to Certain Material
Imagine that Basic A can only be expressed when bonded to moving air molecules, and that its Property A dictates that it is strong against the Basic that can only bond to H20. It could follow that Basic D is strong against Basic A, and that the "bowl" in which it must be conveyed is made of a variety of mineral combinations.
With this very simple and highly scientific explanation YOU TOO can celebrate the Earth Element not as just a clump of nonsensical dirt, but rather the natural vessel for a certain type of combative energy!
One thing I like about this topic is that it makes a cool idea. If you have Earth Magic, maybe every spell should be a combo of MAG and some area-based STR damage, a combo more unique to the element. It would definitely clean up the issue Atlas is having, and we could all have cake!
Property A: Strength Against some other Basic
Property B: Bonds Only to Certain Material
Imagine that Basic A can only be expressed when bonded to moving air molecules, and that its Property A dictates that it is strong against the Basic that can only bond to H20. It could follow that Basic D is strong against Basic A, and that the "bowl" in which it must be conveyed is made of a variety of mineral combinations.
With this very simple and highly scientific explanation YOU TOO can celebrate the Earth Element not as just a clump of nonsensical dirt, but rather the natural vessel for a certain type of combative energy!
One thing I like about this topic is that it makes a cool idea. If you have Earth Magic, maybe every spell should be a combo of MAG and some area-based STR damage, a combo more unique to the element. It would definitely clean up the issue Atlas is having, and we could all have cake!
AtlasAtrium
4079
The concept with the basics is something I've considered before (albeit with different terms), though the most that does is explain why certain element/magic types work against others without adding depth to the actual combat, unless you made it so that said basics can bond with more than just one material. But that might start getting a little bit too complicated. I could see the MAT/STR stat combo working (for a separate class, not a pure mage - you'd have to create some very drastic scaling to make up for the STR gap otherwise). Since Earth is tied with defense like Liberty mentioned, perhaps you might consider MAT + DEF or MAT + MDF or even MDF + DEF.
The funny thing is that all the other elements rely on Earth in the sense of the word and our world. They all exist inside of Earth in some way.
It would be cool if Earth was a mashups of all the elements skill wise.
It would be cool if Earth was a mashups of all the elements skill wise.
You know, it'd make sense for earth to be leech-type/absorb-type as well. The double-edge heal spell, because earth can be soil for growth and thus, growth itself (though water, heat and wind do all play parts in that too).
Frankly, I'm not one to get too bothered about the where's and whyfore's when it comes to spells and magic in video games because it's ~magic~ It can do what it wants, really.
Also, fire is a physical thing - it can be pysically smothered (sure it deals damage back to that which smothers but it still works), it has parts that can be physical in nature - just as earth has parts that aren't necessarily physical in nature (sandstorms, people. quicksand. hitting either of those with a sword ain't gonna do you much good either, after all)
Honestly, you could just take earth as a base value that, when mixed with other elements, can create new stuff. It's power is in it's versatility - earth can be moulded and shaped and hardened or softened or destructive or life-giving or stable or unstable or all manner of things. There you go, easy fix - earth is the most flexible element because it can enhance all the others - another reason it's great for buffs, because it enhances.
Frankly, I'm not one to get too bothered about the where's and whyfore's when it comes to spells and magic in video games because it's ~magic~ It can do what it wants, really.
Also, fire is a physical thing - it can be pysically smothered (sure it deals damage back to that which smothers but it still works), it has parts that can be physical in nature - just as earth has parts that aren't necessarily physical in nature (sandstorms, people. quicksand. hitting either of those with a sword ain't gonna do you much good either, after all)
Honestly, you could just take earth as a base value that, when mixed with other elements, can create new stuff. It's power is in it's versatility - earth can be moulded and shaped and hardened or softened or destructive or life-giving or stable or unstable or all manner of things. There you go, easy fix - earth is the most flexible element because it can enhance all the others - another reason it's great for buffs, because it enhances.
AtlasAtrium
4079
All valid points there, I could work with adding more versatility to the Earth elemental spells in my game with these in mind, I was thinking a bit too narrow-mindedly. Thanks for all the responses, they've been helpful!
LightningLord2
230
My own interpretation is that Earth Element involving groundshaking and tremors, therefore making heavy enemies weak to it for being more easily unbalanced and immobilized by making them fall. And as Liberty already alluded, it tends to be the healing element of the four in the cases where it isn't Water.
Speaking of which, in the western philosophical elements, Earth beats Water and loses to Air, while in the eastern cycle, it's strong against Fire and Water and loses to Wood and Metal.
Gastropods can quickly be killed with the application of Salt, so you could make those weak to Earth as well. The only element where I can't really think of something that's naturally weak to it is Darkness.
Speaking of which, in the western philosophical elements, Earth beats Water and loses to Air, while in the eastern cycle, it's strong against Fire and Water and loses to Wood and Metal.
Gastropods can quickly be killed with the application of Salt, so you could make those weak to Earth as well. The only element where I can't really think of something that's naturally weak to it is Darkness.
^^ There's no 'Earth' in the classical Chinese elements (it's split to wood and metal instead). It's present in Indian, but they don't have wood and metal.
I see earth 'magic' as either avatar-style earth-bending, creation and manipulation of inanimate objects (golems, gargoyles, etc.), dominion over plants and wild creatures, or a healthy mix of it all. It'd be rad if you can convince or take over a creature you're battling, and make it fight in your side instead. Or, if you can summon golems to aid you. Outside of battles, earth magic could be something as simple as moving large boulders aside, to cutting ravines straight through mountains to create a path.
I see earth 'magic' as either avatar-style earth-bending, creation and manipulation of inanimate objects (golems, gargoyles, etc.), dominion over plants and wild creatures, or a healthy mix of it all. It'd be rad if you can convince or take over a creature you're battling, and make it fight in your side instead. Or, if you can summon golems to aid you. Outside of battles, earth magic could be something as simple as moving large boulders aside, to cutting ravines straight through mountains to create a path.
LightningLord2
230
Chinese Elements do include Earth - it's Air that's absent (anything Air-related is in the Wood element, because swaying leaves etc.). Chart looks like this:
