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INVENTORY, SHOPS, AND YOU!
Posts
Xenomic
1752
Xenomic
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CloseRecently, while thinking about equipment as you may have already guessed from my other topic, I was thinking of how I have like 14 weapons per character. This wouldn't be a bad thing if there were 8 or so characters, but for a game with about 28 playable characters (8 optional of course), deciding how many each should get and when the equipment should be available became a recent issue. Not only for gameplay purposes, but for coding purposes too (Weapon Bless is terrible to do with that many characters. Even WORSE when some are dual-wielders).
Now, that alone isn't the problem. I can probably deal with having that many pieces of equipment per character (in fact, the database doesn't even HAVE everything listed, and this only includes storebought things, not things made exclusively through crafting). The problem for me is when to make them available. Let's use my game as an example: At the start of the game, you go to the village to stock up on supplies. Nothing new there, right? After first dungeon and getting 2 new party members (and losing one), these shops update themselves. 2 dungeons later, when losing another party member and gaining another one, they semi-update (and a new one shows up in that dungeon exclusively for that character and another). But after finishing that dungeon, the village's shops update yet again. And yet again do they update after a couple dungeons later, and so on and so forth. It stops updating after a couple dungeons later, but shops with additional upgrades appear just about every 2 dungeons or so. When is upgrading inventory/equipment/skills good to go? I mean, I like to generally "upgrade" the shops with new stuff once you obtain a new character (this isn't always the case though), but I don't know if that's too much or not to upgrade inventory for other characters at that time or not with their weapons, or upgrade with a new piece of armor almost immediately, or what. How do you guys determine when it's best to do so? I'm aware that doing it after a major event is a good time to do so, but it's sometimes hard to tell when a "major event" happens in my game at times heh. ^^;
(On that note, would anyone be kindly interested in helping with shops with me? Might help me out a bit >_<)
Now, that alone isn't the problem. I can probably deal with having that many pieces of equipment per character (in fact, the database doesn't even HAVE everything listed, and this only includes storebought things, not things made exclusively through crafting). The problem for me is when to make them available. Let's use my game as an example: At the start of the game, you go to the village to stock up on supplies. Nothing new there, right? After first dungeon and getting 2 new party members (and losing one), these shops update themselves. 2 dungeons later, when losing another party member and gaining another one, they semi-update (and a new one shows up in that dungeon exclusively for that character and another). But after finishing that dungeon, the village's shops update yet again. And yet again do they update after a couple dungeons later, and so on and so forth. It stops updating after a couple dungeons later, but shops with additional upgrades appear just about every 2 dungeons or so. When is upgrading inventory/equipment/skills good to go? I mean, I like to generally "upgrade" the shops with new stuff once you obtain a new character (this isn't always the case though), but I don't know if that's too much or not to upgrade inventory for other characters at that time or not with their weapons, or upgrade with a new piece of armor almost immediately, or what. How do you guys determine when it's best to do so? I'm aware that doing it after a major event is a good time to do so, but it's sometimes hard to tell when a "major event" happens in my game at times heh. ^^;
(On that note, would anyone be kindly interested in helping with shops with me? Might help me out a bit >_<)
With so many weapons, it might be a good idea to put some as one-off finds in dungeons or if you do sidequests. This way you can plan out shops a bit more effectively (every town has a new weapon, perhaps) but also have some side-weapons that have effects.
For example, you start with an Iron Sword (base 10 damage), then in the first dungeon your find an Iron Sword +1 (14 damage, +Slow) and in the next town you can buy the Wrought Iron Sword (16 damage). Now this gives your player a choice - they could stick with the Iron Sword +1 or choose the Wrought Iron Sword - both have their pros and cons, and it depends on how the player wants the character to play as to whether they pick one or the other. Do they brute force it or do they choose to make use of the Slow status effect for a while longer?
This way weapons don't go through a constant phase of upgrading, and yet the option is still there for them to do so. Depending on money amounts, maybe they think the extra two damage for the Wrought Iron Sword just isn't work the cost and they hold out for the next upgrade. Maybe they didn't find the Iron Sword +1 and are jumping straight from 10 damage to 16 damage (which to them feels like a good upgrade).
Consider that kind of thing.
For example, you start with an Iron Sword (base 10 damage), then in the first dungeon your find an Iron Sword +1 (14 damage, +Slow) and in the next town you can buy the Wrought Iron Sword (16 damage). Now this gives your player a choice - they could stick with the Iron Sword +1 or choose the Wrought Iron Sword - both have their pros and cons, and it depends on how the player wants the character to play as to whether they pick one or the other. Do they brute force it or do they choose to make use of the Slow status effect for a while longer?
This way weapons don't go through a constant phase of upgrading, and yet the option is still there for them to do so. Depending on money amounts, maybe they think the extra two damage for the Wrought Iron Sword just isn't work the cost and they hold out for the next upgrade. Maybe they didn't find the Iron Sword +1 and are jumping straight from 10 damage to 16 damage (which to them feels like a good upgrade).
Consider that kind of thing.
Xenomic
1752
Probably. I know in FFIV you never had to buy any weapon for Cecil except once I think (when he was a Dark Knight), and even then there were still some unique weapons found only in chests. So it's a very viable way of handling that.
Here's another problem that I realized when trying to figure out how to update shops too: Whenever I try to think of a MAJOR PLOT POINT in the game, or MAJOR EVENT POINT, just about any event falls into that. And if I were to wait until the first one I'd consider as one, where you actually can change party members and aren't having characters coming and going, that'd render the shops in the first village completely obsolete. As stated before, I generally like giving upgrades to shops mostly for characters that you first get and only them, but do they really need upgrades immediately after getting them like that?
Here's another problem that I realized when trying to figure out how to update shops too: Whenever I try to think of a MAJOR PLOT POINT in the game, or MAJOR EVENT POINT, just about any event falls into that. And if I were to wait until the first one I'd consider as one, where you actually can change party members and aren't having characters coming and going, that'd render the shops in the first village completely obsolete. As stated before, I generally like giving upgrades to shops mostly for characters that you first get and only them, but do they really need upgrades immediately after getting them like that?
Let them start with a default weapon, then have an upgrade in the next area. It always seemed weird that you'd get an upgrade for a weapon at the start of the game when you haven't even used your default weapon yet, you know?
So holding off for a little while is okay - and this way you don't spoil the whole 'someone is gonna join you' plot point ahead of time. They find their upgrade in the next dungeon (and if they miss it, in the next town). Voila~
So holding off for a little while is okay - and this way you don't spoil the whole 'someone is gonna join you' plot point ahead of time. They find their upgrade in the next dungeon (and if they miss it, in the next town). Voila~
Merlandese
3235
I personally think the idea of shops "updating" as characters do arbitrary things is a little too contrived. It never settled well with me.
I like the idea Liberty suggested of one-off items you have to find, rather than a bunch of sporadic new shipments to small villages in the game.
My suggestion would be to think of something different entirely, although I'm coming from the angle of disliking that core idea and not from the angle of knowing how to do that idea better. If you HAD to have it so that these shops suddenly have more capability to sell better weapons, I'd recommend this:
The shop upgrades only when you spend enough money in it. By using clever numerical balances you make it so that when your characters buy 3/5 of the current weapons, the shop suddenly has an agitated economy that allows them to order the next series of 5 new weapons. As you keep purchasing from the shop they are able to order better and better products, which completes the micro economy of the shop.
I like the idea Liberty suggested of one-off items you have to find, rather than a bunch of sporadic new shipments to small villages in the game.
My suggestion would be to think of something different entirely, although I'm coming from the angle of disliking that core idea and not from the angle of knowing how to do that idea better. If you HAD to have it so that these shops suddenly have more capability to sell better weapons, I'd recommend this:
The shop upgrades only when you spend enough money in it. By using clever numerical balances you make it so that when your characters buy 3/5 of the current weapons, the shop suddenly has an agitated economy that allows them to order the next series of 5 new weapons. As you keep purchasing from the shop they are able to order better and better products, which completes the micro economy of the shop.
Xenomic
1752
Well, I use a combination of normal shops in addition to a synthesis system (which you cannot access until about 8 dungeons into the game, and needs balanced badly). I was thinking of making everything be obtainable ONLY through crafting, but not sure how well that'd go. I also thought of making it so that equipping specific things gives access to specific abilities or something, which could potentially make something at least a little valuable to use even if it's a really weak weapon otherwise, but not sure on that either.
Like...the dilemma is this:
A) Have normal shops, which in this game world is kinda out there for equipment since a lot of the time, they're in the dungeons themselves. This involves reworking the shops so that the equipment is spread out more than it is (really, the main character getting 3 weapon upgrades within 5 dungeons is kinda ridiculous. Then she only gets ONE within 5 dungeons. It's weird and doesn't make sense), which involves figuring out WHEN to do that and that's a major pain because I don't know really when to do it.
B) Have it set to only crafting shop, which brings up how to set up the crafting shop. This gives money a bit more of a use since no longer do you have to buy weapons and armor (and maybe accessories too unless they're the really generic ones), but used primarily for items, skill scrolls, and buying crafting material (which yes, that's something I made doable right now since it was annoying to get specific materials). I may need someone who is willing to look through this with me to help with this. This does mean though that it's a lot more difficult to get equipment, and if they're just regular generic stuff, then they wouldn't be worth getting except to maybe upgrade to the next piece of equipment.
C) Removing some weapons/armor that aren't needed to lessen how much is in the database. I've been considering this since about 50-70% through the game, most characters have about 6-10 weapons each. And that's about 20 some characters there, which I don't know if they NEED that many or not.
So yeah...I do like the spending money to upgrade shop. Could also make it so that if you have so-and-so in your inventory, then it upgrades too?
I do have some weapons only obtainable through other means (for instance, the Ying-Yang Orb you can ONLY get at the start of the game, and if you go too far into the story (past the first dungeon and trigger the cutscene at the next area), you can no longer get that until endgame (because it's required for the ultimate weapon). Though it's far and few in-between that I do that...).
EDIT - A buddy of mine suggested instead of having shops and whatnot, just have like an enchantment system to add onto weapons. This sounds very viable, but also sounds like it would be really, really terrible to code things with as you'd need like 100 million copies of one thing all the time (for 2k3 anyways. I don't know how feasible it is in other makers). It's a sound idea though, and seems like it would make for a great alternative to the default shopping or the crafting system, no?
Like...the dilemma is this:
A) Have normal shops, which in this game world is kinda out there for equipment since a lot of the time, they're in the dungeons themselves. This involves reworking the shops so that the equipment is spread out more than it is (really, the main character getting 3 weapon upgrades within 5 dungeons is kinda ridiculous. Then she only gets ONE within 5 dungeons. It's weird and doesn't make sense), which involves figuring out WHEN to do that and that's a major pain because I don't know really when to do it.
B) Have it set to only crafting shop, which brings up how to set up the crafting shop. This gives money a bit more of a use since no longer do you have to buy weapons and armor (and maybe accessories too unless they're the really generic ones), but used primarily for items, skill scrolls, and buying crafting material (which yes, that's something I made doable right now since it was annoying to get specific materials). I may need someone who is willing to look through this with me to help with this. This does mean though that it's a lot more difficult to get equipment, and if they're just regular generic stuff, then they wouldn't be worth getting except to maybe upgrade to the next piece of equipment.
C) Removing some weapons/armor that aren't needed to lessen how much is in the database. I've been considering this since about 50-70% through the game, most characters have about 6-10 weapons each. And that's about 20 some characters there, which I don't know if they NEED that many or not.
So yeah...I do like the spending money to upgrade shop. Could also make it so that if you have so-and-so in your inventory, then it upgrades too?
I do have some weapons only obtainable through other means (for instance, the Ying-Yang Orb you can ONLY get at the start of the game, and if you go too far into the story (past the first dungeon and trigger the cutscene at the next area), you can no longer get that until endgame (because it's required for the ultimate weapon). Though it's far and few in-between that I do that...).
EDIT - A buddy of mine suggested instead of having shops and whatnot, just have like an enchantment system to add onto weapons. This sounds very viable, but also sounds like it would be really, really terrible to code things with as you'd need like 100 million copies of one thing all the time (for 2k3 anyways. I don't know how feasible it is in other makers). It's a sound idea though, and seems like it would make for a great alternative to the default shopping or the crafting system, no?
You could do the Suikoden thing - have weapons that have a set amount of upgrades (they change name every 5 levels or so, to have a total of 16 levels) that can be upgraded if you have enough money (each level costs more). You could splice this with crafting by having required items for each weapon that you can find through enemy drops or chests.
For example, Hero's level 1 sword can be upgraded like so:
Sword lvl 1 - 10 STR - start with
Sword lvl 2 - 16 STR - 100 G + 4 leather strips (70% drop beasts)
Sword lvl 3 - 22 STR - 200 G + 8 leather strips + 1 whet stone (treasure chest)
Sword lvl 4 - 28 STR - 500 G + 2 quality leather strips (40% drop beasts)
Sword lvl 5 - 35 STR - 900 G + 4 quality leather strips + whet stone
Iron Sword level 6 - 55 STR - 1500 G + Iron ore (rare treasure find)
Iron Sword level 7 - 62 STR - 1800 G + 2 honed blades (50% drop humanoid)
... and so on
But also have a limitation in the skill of the different blacksmiths. Like:
Level 3 cap - Town 1, 2, 3
Level 5 cap - Town 4, 5 - special place 1 (say, an encampment in the middle of a dungeon or something like that)
Level 8 cap - Town 6 (but, say, there's three dungeons before you can progress to the next town so you'd be going into a dungeon, upgrading your sword when you get back, then going to the next dungeon and coming back to the same town)
Level 12 cap - Towns 7, 8, 9 - special place 2
Level 14 cap - Town 10 and 11 (this would be the end town)
Level 15 cap - if you unlock a sidequest you get a secret smith
Just an idea.
For example, Hero's level 1 sword can be upgraded like so:
Sword lvl 1 - 10 STR - start with
Sword lvl 2 - 16 STR - 100 G + 4 leather strips (70% drop beasts)
Sword lvl 3 - 22 STR - 200 G + 8 leather strips + 1 whet stone (treasure chest)
Sword lvl 4 - 28 STR - 500 G + 2 quality leather strips (40% drop beasts)
Sword lvl 5 - 35 STR - 900 G + 4 quality leather strips + whet stone
Iron Sword level 6 - 55 STR - 1500 G + Iron ore (rare treasure find)
Iron Sword level 7 - 62 STR - 1800 G + 2 honed blades (50% drop humanoid)
... and so on
But also have a limitation in the skill of the different blacksmiths. Like:
Level 3 cap - Town 1, 2, 3
Level 5 cap - Town 4, 5 - special place 1 (say, an encampment in the middle of a dungeon or something like that)
Level 8 cap - Town 6 (but, say, there's three dungeons before you can progress to the next town so you'd be going into a dungeon, upgrading your sword when you get back, then going to the next dungeon and coming back to the same town)
Level 12 cap - Towns 7, 8, 9 - special place 2
Level 14 cap - Town 10 and 11 (this would be the end town)
Level 15 cap - if you unlock a sidequest you get a secret smith
Just an idea.
Xenomic
1752
That's actually a really cool idea. Makes having to revisit old towns a lot more interesting for sure! It kinda reminds me of...off...ummm...I guess FFVIII in a way?
I was thinking about it, and it feels like every 2-3 dungeons is when a shop gets upgraded in FF games in general, right? Like in FFVII, you start at the reactor, which is perfectly fine with the initial equipment (most FFs do that anyways). Then after that, you get to Sector 7 where you can upgrade armor (the only thing to upgrade), then you go through another dungeon and then a mini-game, with a chance of encounters between places, and then get to upgrade slightly again. FFIX starts you with everyone with their initial equipment for the first 2 dungeons of the game I think, and then you finally get to upgrade their equipment at the next town, then...I forgot what happens after Dali, herp). That seems to be about average, though it's probably not ALWAYS the case.
So, I'd thought I'd share how the distribution of shops and upgrades to them thereafter are in my game. Perhaps it'd be a good reminder of be careful of how to handle them, for those who don't know how to handle them heh.
(Spoilers for those playing through my game by any chance, but thought I'd show how much of a mess I made out of the distribution of upgrades and inventory throughout my game with shops heh)
START BETA 1
Hakurei Shrine
Human Village (First set of shops)
Misty Lake
Scarlet Devil Mansion (Weapon/Item shop upgrades slightly at Human Village)
Forest of Magic (Armor/Item/Accessory shop upgrades)
Scarlet Devil Mansion (Shop on roof and Koakuma in library.
Bamboo Forest
Eientei (Tewi shop. Only items and scrolls)
Scarlet Devil Mansion
END BETA 1
START BETA 2
Hakurei Shrine (Village shops upgrade)
Underschool (Rin shop. Includes most recent weapons in list only. Armor includes Atlas and Tao Robe as new armor)
Youkai Mountain (Shizuha/Minoriko. Includes weapons for Momiji/Aya as well as Atlas and Tao Robe. Hina is 2nd shop, includes new weapon for Nitori as well as all other latest weapons. Only has Atlas/Tao Robe for armor. Minoriko/Shizuha (before Tenshi) includes same shop as Hina. VIVIT during Sanae's segment is only an item shop. Tengu Village includes all weapons and armor bar the Heavy Shield)
Winter Forest
Hakugyokurou (Ghost shop. Only has Items/Accessories/Scrolls)
Eientei (Tewi shop. Includes new weapons as well as armor and accessories)
END BETA 2
START BETA 3
(Upgrade to Tengu Village shops includes new weapons and armor)
Road of Reconsideration (Includes new weapons/armor. Also has all old weapons)
Remains of Hell (Yuugi shop. Includes new armor, but only 3 weapons)
Road of Reconsideration
Sunflower Field
Road of Reconsideration
Remains of Hell (Rin shop. Only skill scrolls and items)
Mayohiga (Ran shop. Includes new weapons)
Poltergeist Mansion (Items only)
END BETA 3
START BETA 4
Kourindou
Misty Lake
Scarlet Devil Mansion (Koakuma shop. New weapon for Remilia, but mostly skills for Remi and items)
Hakurei Shrine
Hakugyokurou
Remains of Hell (Rin/Ghost shop)
Youkai Mountain (Crystal shop. Items only)
Yuuka's Scenario (Items only)
Remilia's Scenario (Shop. Old armor/weapon/items)
Iku's Scenario (Items only)
Mystia's Scenario (Items only)
Eastern Forest (Tokiko. New weapons and armor)
Cave to Makai (Tokiko. New armor, but same weapons and items)
END BETA 4
BEGIN BETA 5
Cave to Pandemonium
Pandemonium (New equipment)
Hollowed Caverns (Items only)
Hollowed Caverns - Dimensional Rift (Items only)
I was thinking about it, and it feels like every 2-3 dungeons is when a shop gets upgraded in FF games in general, right? Like in FFVII, you start at the reactor, which is perfectly fine with the initial equipment (most FFs do that anyways). Then after that, you get to Sector 7 where you can upgrade armor (the only thing to upgrade), then you go through another dungeon and then a mini-game, with a chance of encounters between places, and then get to upgrade slightly again. FFIX starts you with everyone with their initial equipment for the first 2 dungeons of the game I think, and then you finally get to upgrade their equipment at the next town, then...I forgot what happens after Dali, herp). That seems to be about average, though it's probably not ALWAYS the case.
So, I'd thought I'd share how the distribution of shops and upgrades to them thereafter are in my game. Perhaps it'd be a good reminder of be careful of how to handle them, for those who don't know how to handle them heh.
(Spoilers for those playing through my game by any chance, but thought I'd show how much of a mess I made out of the distribution of upgrades and inventory throughout my game with shops heh)
START BETA 1
Hakurei Shrine
Human Village (First set of shops)
Misty Lake
Scarlet Devil Mansion (Weapon/Item shop upgrades slightly at Human Village)
Forest of Magic (Armor/Item/Accessory shop upgrades)
Scarlet Devil Mansion (Shop on roof and Koakuma in library.
Bamboo Forest
Eientei (Tewi shop. Only items and scrolls)
Scarlet Devil Mansion
END BETA 1
START BETA 2
Hakurei Shrine (Village shops upgrade)
Underschool (Rin shop. Includes most recent weapons in list only. Armor includes Atlas and Tao Robe as new armor)
Youkai Mountain (Shizuha/Minoriko. Includes weapons for Momiji/Aya as well as Atlas and Tao Robe. Hina is 2nd shop, includes new weapon for Nitori as well as all other latest weapons. Only has Atlas/Tao Robe for armor. Minoriko/Shizuha (before Tenshi) includes same shop as Hina. VIVIT during Sanae's segment is only an item shop. Tengu Village includes all weapons and armor bar the Heavy Shield)
Winter Forest
Hakugyokurou (Ghost shop. Only has Items/Accessories/Scrolls)
Eientei (Tewi shop. Includes new weapons as well as armor and accessories)
END BETA 2
START BETA 3
(Upgrade to Tengu Village shops includes new weapons and armor)
Road of Reconsideration (Includes new weapons/armor. Also has all old weapons)
Remains of Hell (Yuugi shop. Includes new armor, but only 3 weapons)
Road of Reconsideration
Sunflower Field
Road of Reconsideration
Remains of Hell (Rin shop. Only skill scrolls and items)
Mayohiga (Ran shop. Includes new weapons)
Poltergeist Mansion (Items only)
END BETA 3
START BETA 4
Kourindou
Misty Lake
Scarlet Devil Mansion (Koakuma shop. New weapon for Remilia, but mostly skills for Remi and items)
Hakurei Shrine
Hakugyokurou
Remains of Hell (Rin/Ghost shop)
Youkai Mountain (Crystal shop. Items only)
Yuuka's Scenario (Items only)
Remilia's Scenario (Shop. Old armor/weapon/items)
Iku's Scenario (Items only)
Mystia's Scenario (Items only)
Eastern Forest (Tokiko. New weapons and armor)
Cave to Makai (Tokiko. New armor, but same weapons and items)
END BETA 4
BEGIN BETA 5
Cave to Pandemonium
Pandemonium (New equipment)
Hollowed Caverns (Items only)
Hollowed Caverns - Dimensional Rift (Items only)
Thing with FF7, though, is that some of the dungeons are really short or count as an extension of the current dungeon.
- Short Dungeon with initial equip
- Town area
- Another dungeon (extended from reactor to the slum/church area mini-dungeon)
- Town area (Aeris's home)
- Mini dungeon to Sector 6
- Sector 6 and upgrades
The reactor areas are a bit bigger, but the slum area and the run between Aeris's house and Sector 6/7 are pretty short. There's a boss in the first dungeon.
Then you have other RPG examples, too. Let's take Breath of Fire II (because I can remember that one fairly well, that's why).
You start with a default equip.
The upgrade is in the starting town, but costs more money than you currently have, and it's not a big jump in power anyway. You can make the money easily enough by either fishing, hunting or selling a Life item, so it's easy to upgrade straight off the bat. The normal idea is this, though:
Go to dungeon. Defeat boss (armour upgrades within dungeon).
Go to small town where there's another boss.
Go back to first town, upgrade weaponry/armour.
Go second town. (No weapon upgrades, but you do get two new characters who have upgrades here.)
Go to dungeon, defeat boss.
Back to second town.
Back to small town. -1 character.
Go to first town. New character get.
Go to new dungeon. Find sword upgrade. (not a big damage jump but can be used by another character and is super effective against dead/zombie enemies)
Go to third town. Can buy sword upgrade. (straight power upgrade)
Looking at how other games have balanced such things should give you a decent idea. Also, I don't see why other characters can't use the same weapons. If you have two characters that use the same kind of weapon, there shouldn't be too much of an issue in combining their weapon categories a bit (say have 4 personal weapons that only they can use, and 4+ that are overlap weapons they can both use).
- Short Dungeon with initial equip
- Town area
- Another dungeon (extended from reactor to the slum/church area mini-dungeon)
- Town area (Aeris's home)
- Mini dungeon to Sector 6
- Sector 6 and upgrades
The reactor areas are a bit bigger, but the slum area and the run between Aeris's house and Sector 6/7 are pretty short. There's a boss in the first dungeon.
Then you have other RPG examples, too. Let's take Breath of Fire II (because I can remember that one fairly well, that's why).
You start with a default equip.
The upgrade is in the starting town, but costs more money than you currently have, and it's not a big jump in power anyway. You can make the money easily enough by either fishing, hunting or selling a Life item, so it's easy to upgrade straight off the bat. The normal idea is this, though:
Go to dungeon. Defeat boss (armour upgrades within dungeon).
Go to small town where there's another boss.
Go back to first town, upgrade weaponry/armour.
Go second town. (No weapon upgrades, but you do get two new characters who have upgrades here.)
Go to dungeon, defeat boss.
Back to second town.
Back to small town. -1 character.
Go to first town. New character get.
Go to new dungeon. Find sword upgrade. (not a big damage jump but can be used by another character and is super effective against dead/zombie enemies)
Go to third town. Can buy sword upgrade. (straight power upgrade)
Looking at how other games have balanced such things should give you a decent idea. Also, I don't see why other characters can't use the same weapons. If you have two characters that use the same kind of weapon, there shouldn't be too much of an issue in combining their weapon categories a bit (say have 4 personal weapons that only they can use, and 4+ that are overlap weapons they can both use).
Make everything available in the shop except crafted or special dropped weapons. The price of the weapons should make them hard enough to obtain that most players can't buy it until you intend them to anyways.
But they key is not to hand out gold easily. This makes it balances so the player knows they can buy something better, but they need to work for it.
Xenomic
1752
@Liberty: So it is roughly 2-3 dungeons then, with some being in dungeons (like almost all of Cecil's unique weapons in FFIV were pretty much). That's a good reference to go by, and what I'm actually trying now (in fact, I think it's working out nicely so far. I also got rid of some old weapons for characters, so if I need to readjust yet again, I'll just bring those back). If that doesn't work, I'll just have to modify it a bit more then. So the way I have it right now for my game is this:
Hakurei Shrine (Start of game)
Human Village (No new weapons. A couple new helmets and armor. I haven't actually gone through helmets and armor yet, but this is fine for now)
Misty Lake (first dungeon)
Scarlet Devil Mansion (pitstop)
Forest of Magic (The weapon and armor shops will upgrade at this point. However, for the weapon shop, it's only a new weapon for Reimu and only her. This is because Cirno doesn't equip anything (except universal weapons later on) and Aya is brand new so want her to stick with her initial weapon for now). Armor shop gets 2 new armor and 1 new helmet (in fact, the helmet is what a boss in the previous dungeon drops)
Scarlet Devil Mansion (full on dungeon now. Shop on roof now only sells items. Koakuma now only sells Patchouli's skill scrolls and items. At this time, after acquiring the new characters, the item shop in the village updates to allow the player to go back and buy their skills there)
Bamboo Forest (Nothing updates despite getting Reisen at the end)
Eientei (Shops are unchanged, reason being that they're skills for Reisen and regular items. But you only get one shot at the shops, and they only happen twice in the dungeon. Once at the start and once at the end. The player would have to leave the dungeon and go back to the village to buy items, and cannot buy skills for Reisen if they don't do it then)
Scarlet Devil Mansion
END BETA 1
BEGIN BETA 2
Hakurei Shrine (After finishing the cutscene here, all shops in the Human Village update to allow the player to buy new skills for everyone as well as new weapons, including new ones for Sakuya despite her just being gotten in the last dungeon not even 5 minutes ago. Debating on if she should get her upgrade now or not but eh)
Underschool (Rin shop now only sells items and no longer sells equipment)
Youkai Mountain (Tengu shop at start now only sells items and the Tengu Feather accessory (+20 speed). Minoriko/Shizuha shops are unchanged, mostly to give the player a chance to upgrade Momiji/Aya. Hina shop now only sells items and skill scrolls. Shizuha no longer sells anything second time around. Tengu Village lost some weapons but now sells better upgrades from last Human Village shop. Considering the length of Youkai Mountain alone, this is a good time for it).
That's as far as I've gotten with fixing up shops. It seems a looot better than before though, which I'm happy with. So far, Reimu has 2 buyable weapons, same with Meiling/Sakuya (though the first is their initial weapon), while everyone else has 1 buyable weapon (including Momiji who you got at the start of the dungeon. But honestly, the upgrade could be well needed for her. Same with Nitori. Not sure about Sanae and Suwako, since they're completely optional characters but I suppose it doesn't hurt??). I may be going 3-4 dungeons in some parts to spread it out more, but it's a good guideline to go with.
As for why characters can't use what others use...in my game, it wouldn't make much sense to give an elemental magician that uses books a fist weapon, or a dual-wielding samurai character a broom, now would it? ^^; Though Genius of Sapphieros generally allowed characters to equip a general category of weapons, but they still had their own unique weapons. *shrugs*
@kory_toombs: Depends really. I was thinking of doing that at one point, but I know some people that would grind to get the highest thing they could just because they can heh. Not that I can stop that other than doing the normal thing I'm doing but ya know. Gold/EXP balancing is a thing for my own game that I'm kinda bad at (EXP especially. Because...2k3 is TERRIBLE with EXP. I don't know how bad it is with the other makers). ^^;
Hakurei Shrine (Start of game)
Human Village (No new weapons. A couple new helmets and armor. I haven't actually gone through helmets and armor yet, but this is fine for now)
Misty Lake (first dungeon)
Scarlet Devil Mansion (pitstop)
Forest of Magic (The weapon and armor shops will upgrade at this point. However, for the weapon shop, it's only a new weapon for Reimu and only her. This is because Cirno doesn't equip anything (except universal weapons later on) and Aya is brand new so want her to stick with her initial weapon for now). Armor shop gets 2 new armor and 1 new helmet (in fact, the helmet is what a boss in the previous dungeon drops)
Scarlet Devil Mansion (full on dungeon now. Shop on roof now only sells items. Koakuma now only sells Patchouli's skill scrolls and items. At this time, after acquiring the new characters, the item shop in the village updates to allow the player to go back and buy their skills there)
Bamboo Forest (Nothing updates despite getting Reisen at the end)
Eientei (Shops are unchanged, reason being that they're skills for Reisen and regular items. But you only get one shot at the shops, and they only happen twice in the dungeon. Once at the start and once at the end. The player would have to leave the dungeon and go back to the village to buy items, and cannot buy skills for Reisen if they don't do it then)
Scarlet Devil Mansion
END BETA 1
BEGIN BETA 2
Hakurei Shrine (After finishing the cutscene here, all shops in the Human Village update to allow the player to buy new skills for everyone as well as new weapons, including new ones for Sakuya despite her just being gotten in the last dungeon not even 5 minutes ago. Debating on if she should get her upgrade now or not but eh)
Underschool (Rin shop now only sells items and no longer sells equipment)
Youkai Mountain (Tengu shop at start now only sells items and the Tengu Feather accessory (+20 speed). Minoriko/Shizuha shops are unchanged, mostly to give the player a chance to upgrade Momiji/Aya. Hina shop now only sells items and skill scrolls. Shizuha no longer sells anything second time around. Tengu Village lost some weapons but now sells better upgrades from last Human Village shop. Considering the length of Youkai Mountain alone, this is a good time for it).
That's as far as I've gotten with fixing up shops. It seems a looot better than before though, which I'm happy with. So far, Reimu has 2 buyable weapons, same with Meiling/Sakuya (though the first is their initial weapon), while everyone else has 1 buyable weapon (including Momiji who you got at the start of the dungeon. But honestly, the upgrade could be well needed for her. Same with Nitori. Not sure about Sanae and Suwako, since they're completely optional characters but I suppose it doesn't hurt??). I may be going 3-4 dungeons in some parts to spread it out more, but it's a good guideline to go with.
As for why characters can't use what others use...in my game, it wouldn't make much sense to give an elemental magician that uses books a fist weapon, or a dual-wielding samurai character a broom, now would it? ^^; Though Genius of Sapphieros generally allowed characters to equip a general category of weapons, but they still had their own unique weapons. *shrugs*
@kory_toombs: Depends really. I was thinking of doing that at one point, but I know some people that would grind to get the highest thing they could just because they can heh. Not that I can stop that other than doing the normal thing I'm doing but ya know. Gold/EXP balancing is a thing for my own game that I'm kinda bad at (EXP especially. Because...2k3 is TERRIBLE with EXP. I don't know how bad it is with the other makers). ^^;
LightningLord2
230
RPG Maker has always been terrible with EXP - the only customization in the exp curve in MV is selecting four variables for a highly limited matrix of exp values.
Either way, while I like having options in gear in what effects they bring, you should save that up for a bit later in the game so you can focus on making gear variety at a point where it won't get outclassed so quickly.
Either way, while I like having options in gear in what effects they bring, you should save that up for a bit later in the game so you can focus on making gear variety at a point where it won't get outclassed so quickly.
If players are willing to spend the time required to grind for gold to buy a powerful item, then the item is the reward for putting in that time. If gold is hard to get most players might not want to bother with the time consumption of that. I mean if you're going to grind for levels, even if you don't need to, there's nothing stopping players from doing this unless you stopped giving exp points at a certain point.
Xenomic
1752
I suppose that is true. Though I prefer ye ol' FF method of doing it since my game is based around that series.
Here's another question for ya'll! Regarding inventory, when you do descriptions for equipment, how do you handle it? Do you prefer putting in flavor text for the equipment? Or do you prefer putting in the stats it boosts? Or just relegate to side effects that aren't visible, such as elemental/status resistances and any other special effects like HP/MP+%, increasing an command's power, etc.? I know that 2k3 really sucks in regards to how much you can put in the description, so it's nearly impossible to tell everything for a single piece of equipment if there's a lot that it does (even more impossible if you have flavor text too!).
Here's another question for ya'll! Regarding inventory, when you do descriptions for equipment, how do you handle it? Do you prefer putting in flavor text for the equipment? Or do you prefer putting in the stats it boosts? Or just relegate to side effects that aren't visible, such as elemental/status resistances and any other special effects like HP/MP+%, increasing an command's power, etc.? I know that 2k3 really sucks in regards to how much you can put in the description, so it's nearly impossible to tell everything for a single piece of equipment if there's a lot that it does (even more impossible if you have flavor text too!).
I like both. One line for lore, one line for technical details.
Oh, wait, one line in 2k/3. Uh, go with technical details. Better for the person to know what an item does, than to have to guess. I mean, you could include it in the name I guess?
Item Name: Tonic (+100HP)
Description: Made of bitter-tasting herbs, it heals your health.
Or, if possible:
(+100HP, -Stun) A bitter-tasting tonic made of herbs.
Best of both worlds.
You could also use symbols instead of words. So $A+15 might be STR+15 or a fist symbol or something that represents that stat.
(You can check the glyphs by searching the Help File for Show Text and looking for the link to the Special File images thing)
Oh, wait, one line in 2k/3. Uh, go with technical details. Better for the person to know what an item does, than to have to guess. I mean, you could include it in the name I guess?
Item Name: Tonic (+100HP)
Description: Made of bitter-tasting herbs, it heals your health.
Or, if possible:
(+100HP, -Stun) A bitter-tasting tonic made of herbs.
Best of both worlds.
You could also use symbols instead of words. So $A+15 might be STR+15 or a fist symbol or something that represents that stat.
(You can check the glyphs by searching the Help File for Show Text and looking for the link to the Special File images thing)
I really only like flavor text when every weapon is more or less the same. I mean if an iron sword and a steel sword only differ in color and a few points in attack then flavor it up. But if you doing things like weapons that double attack or poison on hit I'd rather the description tell me a special effect instead.
Xenomic
1752
Symbols. Symbols are a good way of handling it. Here's an example of what I have in my game for armor. Note that it uses flavor text and tells nothing of what the armor does.
Name: Soul Armor
Cost: 4800
Description: Armor with a chaotic spirit embuned within.
ATK: 0
DEF: 49
MAG: 0
SPD: 0
Resistance: Blunt, Slash, Shadow, Ghost
Allows equipped character to use level 2 of their secondary command (does not apply to every character that can equip this armor).
The stats probably don't need to be in the description since you should be able to tell from equipping it if its better or worse than what you may have on. For these, I'd normally do something like "Blunt/Slash/Shadow/Ghost Resist Up" for resistances (though of course, this comes as an issue when statuses are also prevent on the same piece of equipment too. Can't fit everything at once heh). Other things like Increased Evasion, No Terrain Damage, Half MP Cost, and No Critical Hits I don't know how to give in the description other than symbols (if any work for those), and then there are other hidden things like the ability to level up secondary commands to level 2/3 on specific pieces of equipment, or other added bonuses.
(My Help file doesn't work because Win7, but I THINK there was a topic on these forums that had the symbols too??)
Name: Soul Armor
Cost: 4800
Description: Armor with a chaotic spirit embuned within.
ATK: 0
DEF: 49
MAG: 0
SPD: 0
Resistance: Blunt, Slash, Shadow, Ghost
Allows equipped character to use level 2 of their secondary command (does not apply to every character that can equip this armor).
The stats probably don't need to be in the description since you should be able to tell from equipping it if its better or worse than what you may have on. For these, I'd normally do something like "Blunt/Slash/Shadow/Ghost Resist Up" for resistances (though of course, this comes as an issue when statuses are also prevent on the same piece of equipment too. Can't fit everything at once heh). Other things like Increased Evasion, No Terrain Damage, Half MP Cost, and No Critical Hits I don't know how to give in the description other than symbols (if any work for those), and then there are other hidden things like the ability to level up secondary commands to level 2/3 on specific pieces of equipment, or other added bonuses.
(My Help file doesn't work because Win7, but I THINK there was a topic on these forums that had the symbols too??)
Gredge109
4151
(EVA +2%, FLR DMG -50%, MP Cost -50%, CRE+)
Simplified further for space:
(EVA+, FLR DMG-, MP/2, CRE+)
If they're going to be stats the players will see frequently, you can always introduce the abbreviations earlier in the game, which will allow you to simplify even further. E.g.
(EV+, FLR-, etc.)
Yeah symbols do seem like the best choice, but if you can't find the ones you need, these are some decent substitutions I've both used and seen used. E.g.,
Item: Busted Shield
Description: (EVA +2%) Doesn't do much in the way of protection.
For the armor you mentioned, you can have simple abbreviations, provided the players are introduced to these abbreviations early in the game, for example: (RES B,S,Sh,Gh, SPEC LV2). It would work better than nothing because you'll have those players who will pick up the new armor, look at their own armor which gives more DEF, and then sell away the armor that would have been better for them.
Simplified further for space:
(EVA+, FLR DMG-, MP/2, CRE+)
If they're going to be stats the players will see frequently, you can always introduce the abbreviations earlier in the game, which will allow you to simplify even further. E.g.
(EV+, FLR-, etc.)
Yeah symbols do seem like the best choice, but if you can't find the ones you need, these are some decent substitutions I've both used and seen used. E.g.,
Item: Busted Shield
Description: (EVA +2%) Doesn't do much in the way of protection.
For the armor you mentioned, you can have simple abbreviations, provided the players are introduced to these abbreviations early in the game, for example: (RES B,S,Sh,Gh, SPEC LV2). It would work better than nothing because you'll have those players who will pick up the new armor, look at their own armor which gives more DEF, and then sell away the armor that would have been better for them.
Honestly, if you're using just the base stats, you can use lore instead. This is because they'll see the stat changes when the equip the armour/weapon. If you are using other stuff like, say, 'inflicts poison' or 'fire elemental', either address it in the lore or add a glyph/symbol in the description.
So either:
(Fire)(Burn Inflict)($A)
OR
A sword wreathed in an all-consuming flame.
Actually, maybe this is the best way to handle it:
Hell, in one game I used this method, except I changed each find description to add more about the lore of the items, so...
It's a way to add lore but also make items easy to understand when you need them.
So either:
(Fire)(Burn Inflict)($A)
OR
A sword wreathed in an all-consuming flame.
Actually, maybe this is the best way to handle it:
Hell, in one game I used this method, except I changed each find description to add more about the lore of the items, so...
It's a way to add lore but also make items easy to understand when you need them.
Xenomic
1752
Hmm. Yeah, that'd be a real nice way of handling it. I was kinda thinking of doing something like that but wasn't really sure how to handle that nicely in 2k3. That and figure out how to deal with my skill learning system heh. Though most of the "lore", so to speak, is kinda not there for most of the equipment (in fact, some of the equipment is just straight-up from other games, even out of Final Fantasy, such as the Soul Calibur or the Oathkeeper).
Same with the abbreviations, those could work (in fact, I had to abbreviate some statuses because there were so many on just one armor lol. It was kinda crazy)
Same with the abbreviations, those could work (in fact, I had to abbreviate some statuses because there were so many on just one armor lol. It was kinda crazy)
