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"ON LET'S PLAYS" - DEV EXPRESSES PLIGHT OVER HOW LP'S HAVE IMPACTED HIS GAME'S SALES
Posts
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
Jeroen_Sol
View playlists
Closeauthor=SoozI agree that that is almost always the case. But if the developer feels differently, then it's still a dick move to LP the game. It doesn't matter whether the developer is right or not, all that matters is that their work is being used against their will. Yes, LPing falls under fair use and is completely legal even if the developer doesn't want it (Even though Youtube's bullshit claim system seems to think otherwise), but LPing a game when the dev doesn't want you to is a dick move regardless of its legality.
At any rate, the LP genie is out of the bottle, and I still firmly believe that even a full playthrough will lead to a bigger paying audience than lack thereof, so the whole argument feels a bit pointless to me.
author=Sooz
Possibly because I have seen how badly many devs want to keep an iron grip on everything and banish any possible criticism.
If you want to criticize a game, why not make a review? There's no reason to show the game in its entirety, or even more than just snippets. Let's Plays aren't about criticism. They're about showcasing the game. And that is something devs should have an iron grip on.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Jeroen_Solauthor=SoozI agree that that is almost always the case. But if the developer feels differently, then it's still a dick move to LP the game. It doesn't matter whether the developer is right or not, all that matters is that their work is being used against their will. Yes, LPing falls under fair use and is completely legal even if the developer doesn't want it (Even though Youtube's bullshit claim system seems to think otherwise), but LPing a game when the dev doesn't want you to is a dick move regardless of its legality.
At any rate, the LP genie is out of the bottle, and I still firmly believe that even a full playthrough will lead to a bigger paying audience than lack thereof, so the whole argument feels a bit pointless to me.
I just feel like, if you're making a commercial game, you have to be prepared for some dick moves on the part of the buying public.
(Also, having looked up a bit about the game's development, THE DUDE HAD FUNDING FROM OUYA AND THEN A $100,000 KICKSTARTER. I THINK THE LOW SALES THING IS NOT THAT BIG A DEAL.)
If you want to criticize a game, why not make a review? There's no reason to show the game in its entirety, or even more than just snippets. Let's Plays aren't about criticism. They're about showcasing the game. And that is something devs should have an iron grip on.
I strongly disagree just in general. LPs and reviews offer different views of a thing, and honestly, I feel that a dev should be prepared for the fact that full LPs exist and work around that knowledge, not just bitch that they exist and may possibly be somehow preventing people who otherwise would buy a game from buying it.
I mean, seriously, think about that idea for a moment: somehow, the fact of a LP existing prevents someone from buying a game that they want to play. Somehow, if someone starts watching a LP, they lose the ability to close the window and go purchase the game. That's risible.
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=LockeZ
There is nobody on the planet who is avoiding buying games because they can watch LPs of them instead. It is an imaginary problem.
I wouldn't say that.
author=Corfaisusauthor=LockeZI wouldn't say that.
There is nobody on the planet who is avoiding buying games because they can watch LPs of them instead. It is an imaginary problem.
I have had a few people watch LPs when they don't have the money to buy any of these games in the first place.
Some of them end up buying it later, some may just forget about it *shrug*
If you really like what you see you are tempted to go get it later. And if you like playing games .. you will play games.
I'm in the low-money camp, and the japanese pop I've been listening to thanks to youtube I am slowly buying (and putting on my wishlists repeatedly)
Personally, I only really watch stuff for entertainment value when I don't want to buy it, there were just one or two adventure games I watched because it works well for the genre (and I hate the puzzles anyway), but those I did end up getting later.
Crystalgate
694
author=Jeroen_Sol
I agree that that is almost always the case. But if the developer feels differently, then it's still a dick move to LP the game. It doesn't matter whether the developer is right or not, all that matters is that their work is being used against their will. Yes, LPing falls under fair use and is completely legal even if the developer doesn't want it (Even though Youtube's bullshit claim system seems to think otherwise), but LPing a game when the dev doesn't want you to is a dick move regardless of its legality.
An LP or any video uploads of a game being played, is the best way for me to get an accurate picture of what to expect from a game. Trailers show me what the publishers want me to see and a review show me the reviewer's opinion. Watching a gameplay video actually shows me what to expect.
I can respect a developer's wish to not have their game spoiled, but I absolutely cannot respect a developer's wish for any extent of control over how well I can inform myself. For this reason, I cannot agree with you for the majority of games.
Jeroen_Sol
Nothing reveals Humanity so well as the games it plays. A game of betrayal, where the most suspicious person is brutally murdered? How savage.
3885
I dunno, being able to inform yourself is definitely important, and gameplay videos are a good way of doing that, but on Steam at least, if there's a discrepancy between the game's trailers and actual gameplay, the review section is filled with people not recommending the game. Reading/watching the review of one person might give only give you the opinion of the reviewer, but reading/watching the reviews of multiple people is a very good way to inform yourself.
I watch LPers myself, too, but never to inform myself on a game. I only watch LPers because I like their commentary, regardless of the games they play. Most series I watch are on old games that aren't making money anymore. I feel that if the LPers would try to get in contact with at least the indie developers, a lot of potentially hairy situations could be avoided altogether. And most of those developers will in all likelihood be totally fine with their games being LPed, because free advertising is awesome and all.
It's like those react channels. People are often fine with others making react videos to their videos, but only if the reactors ask permission first.
I watch LPers myself, too, but never to inform myself on a game. I only watch LPers because I like their commentary, regardless of the games they play. Most series I watch are on old games that aren't making money anymore. I feel that if the LPers would try to get in contact with at least the indie developers, a lot of potentially hairy situations could be avoided altogether. And most of those developers will in all likelihood be totally fine with their games being LPed, because free advertising is awesome and all.
It's like those react channels. People are often fine with others making react videos to their videos, but only if the reactors ask permission first.
Shinan
4314
Remember when games had demos you could play to get a more accurate idea of what a game was?
Those were the days.
Those were the days.
Crystalgate
694
author=Jeroen_Sol
I dunno, being able to inform yourself is definitely important, and gameplay videos are a good way of doing that, but on Steam at least, if there's a discrepancy between the game's trailers and actual gameplay, the review section is filled with people not recommending the game. Reading/watching the review of one person might give only give you the opinion of the reviewer, but reading/watching the reviews of multiple people is a very good way to inform yourself.
I'm not talking about obvious scams, I'm talking about the fact that trailers shows the most exiting parts of gameplay and (spoiler free) cutscenes rather than the average.
SnowOwl
5188
author=Shinan
Remember when games had demos you could play to get a more accurate idea of what a game was?
Those were the days.
Who has time to play games, and much less demos, nowadays.
suzy_cheesedreams
1480
I would have thought it would be wiser for this game to be the kind where people can play it for free, but can donate to the creators if they wish to, like that Depression Quest game?
I don't know, it just seems like a case of poor market research and a poorer still understanding of the nature of the internet.
e: Not that I have any understanding of copyright laws or LPing >_<
I do agree with Sooz in that creators should expect dick moves from a portion of consumers.
I don't know, it just seems like a case of poor market research and a poorer still understanding of the nature of the internet.
e: Not that I have any understanding of copyright laws or LPing >_<
I do agree with Sooz in that creators should expect dick moves from a portion of consumers.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=suzy_cheesedreams
I would have thought it would be wiser for this game to be the kind where people can play it for free, but can donate to the creators if they wish to, like that Depression Quest game?
I don't know, it just seems like a case of poor market research and a poorer still understanding of the nature of the internet.
I skimmed the OP article, and I think there was a wish that LP watchers would put in a donation to the creators, which is a fair enough request.
I tend to agree with the overall "poor understanding" point- given the background of funding that TDC had, I suspect they decided to value it closer to much larger and sleeker indie titles, rather than games that might be better peers for it, which will obviously lead to fewer sales, because fifteen bucks is a bit much in current terms for a game that's linear, low-interactivity, not great graphics, and not actually much fun. We figured out a similar issue when selling Remnants of Isolation: it was originally priced around ten bux, and we'd get sales, but only in terms of pocket change. After halving that price, sales jumped considerably, from pocket change to maybe being able to buy something at Starbucks- and we don't have the benefit of the media buzz or many LPs!
(There is probably room for a discussion on perceived game value vs value of creators' work; we tend to really undervalue a lot of consumable art in the West. I don't really think it's germane to the topic at hand, but it's a thing.)
e: Not that I have any understanding of copyright laws or LPing >_<
Having followed the current YouTube kerfuffle on copyright and Fair Use, I'm pretty sure LPs fall under that, in that there's an argument to be made for them being tranformative, as well as criticism and/or parody, depending on the individual LP. That's just for basic YT policy; as far as law, it only strictly applies in the US (I have no idea what other countries' laws are) and LPing in particular hasn't been taken to court AFAIK, so there's no actual ruling on it officially.
I am neither lawyer nor judge, so my sense of Fair Use may be proven wrong in the future, but overall I think the law is on the side of the LPers.
I think that if a publisher actually takes your median LPer or speedrunner to court that a fair use defense won't succeed. They are transformative to a degree, sure, but that in itself isn't strong enough compared to how much copyrighted substance is in most LPs.
Shinan
4314
author=SnowOwlauthor=ShinanWho has time to play games, and much less demos, nowadays.
Remember when games had demos you could play to get a more accurate idea of what a game was?
Those were the days.
The people who sit through a full-length LP of any game probably has that time.
Since I the problem is people who watch the whole thing and decide not to buy the game instead of seeing snippets here and there and decide the game is uninteresting. Of course in a millions of youtube views you can't really tell which is which. Unless it's saying that people that watched five minutes of footage from a game and decided it didn't look great and chose not to buy it are the same who watched the whole ten hours and decided they had got all out of what the game had to offer.
Wow, lots of caveats with the arguments being brought up here, but I'm too lazy to argue every point. xD I'm just going to assert again that there's ways and ways to do things. Reviews, criticism, and even mockery are not out of the question if that's really your concern. But there's a formula for everything. If you want to take advantage of all the "grey areas" surrounding these topics, that's up to you. But at this point you may as well be arguing in favor of piracy or whatever else; the logic is indistinguishable.
Also, in addition to my "get permission" comment from before, I guess this is a message that can be extended to developers as well: Be proactive and "give permission". You know that "Creative Commons" thing? Similar deal. Think of the ways in which allowing your games to be streamed in any capacity could be beneficial to all parties involved, you, streamers, consumers, the medium as a whole. Lay down your rules, and hope those rules are respected, I guess. Can't really ask the internet for more...
Also, in addition to my "get permission" comment from before, I guess this is a message that can be extended to developers as well: Be proactive and "give permission". You know that "Creative Commons" thing? Similar deal. Think of the ways in which allowing your games to be streamed in any capacity could be beneficial to all parties involved, you, streamers, consumers, the medium as a whole. Lay down your rules, and hope those rules are respected, I guess. Can't really ask the internet for more...
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=Shinan
Since I the problem is people who watch the whole thing and decide not to buy the game instead of seeing snippets here and there and decide the game is uninteresting. Of course in a millions of youtube views you can't really tell which is which. Unless it's saying that people that watched five minutes of footage from a game and decided it didn't look great and chose not to buy it are the same who watched the whole ten hours and decided they had got all out of what the game had to offer.
My problem with this argument is it assumes the audience has no ability to stop the video and buy the game at any time, despite the fact that multiple people have stated they've done this.
You're citing viewcount, but viewcount can mean anything from "Watched the whole thing" to "Watched five minutes" to "This autoplayed when I checked out the channel" to "I got linked this and then immediately closed it because fuck video games." (As well as "I was hired to repeatedly click this link to artificially inflate the video's viewcount.")
In any case, it doesn't represent lost potential audience, any more than view count on the game's site is lost potential audience, because it does not really measure interest in the game itself.
That's the thing about LPs, at least the big ones: it's more focused on the performer than on the game they're playing. If it were about the games themselves, silent longplays would be the popular form, and they absolutely are not.
author=Jude
I think that if a publisher actually takes your median LPer or speedrunner to court that a fair use defense won't succeed. They are transformative to a degree, sure, but that in itself isn't strong enough compared to how much copyrighted substance is in most LPs.
After reading a bit more on the laws, I tend to agree,* but I still feel like it's a different case with most games, in that not playing the game oneself offers a really limited view of the experience. As an analog, I'd compare watching someone's taped rollercoaster experience versus actually riding said rollercoaster.
In any case, we won't know until lawsuits happen. vOv
*Partly because I don't feel like most judges really understand the nature of video games or the internet
author=Shinan
Unless it's saying that people that watched five minutes of footage from a game and decided it didn't look great and chose not to buy it are the same who watched the whole ten hours and decided they had got all out of what the game had to offer.
They'd be the same in the sense that both would be lost sales, I guess, though one could argue that the former was doing research before making a purchase and may have been a lost cause anyways.
If you want to criticize a game, why not make a review? There's no reason to show the game in its entirety, or even more than just snippets. Let's Plays aren't about criticism. They're about showcasing the game. And that is something devs should have an iron grip on.
It's my belief that there exist certain games where simple snippets could not entirely capture either how good or how terribly shit a game is (usually that second part, which is probably were some devs would get real draconian with their grip )
Though I fully think being able to make ad revenue off of LPs is ridiculous since, depending on the uploader, the majority of the content isn't even yours to begin with. Slapping a facecam and doing some editing doesn't make it any more yours than just leaving the base footage, IMO. If the gameplay/footage plays a minor part in the video (traditional reviews, I guess) then I don't really care but if it's essentially the whole vid and all you did was slap your face+voice on it and lop of boring parts then I don't think it should be done. At this point, though, I'm just arguing from my own moralistic standpoint
Ad cash going entirely towards charities and the sort become a grey area for me in that regard
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
author=TehGuy
Though I fully think being able to make ad revenue off of LPs is ridiculous since, depending on the uploader, the majority of the content isn't even yours to begin with. Slapping a facecam and doing some editing doesn't make it any more yours than just leaving the base footage, IMO. If the gameplay/footage plays a minor part in the video (traditional reviews, I guess) then I don't really care but if it's essentially the whole vid and all you did was slap your face+voice on it and lop of boring parts then I don't think it should be done. At this point, though, I'm just arguing from my own moralistic standpoint
Do you also feel that the MST3K team doesn't deserve any income?
As I said before, people are generally not watching Let's Plays for the games themselves.
I just don't understand the entire LP culture/industry that's developed in the last five years. It makes me feel old and out of touch. Probably because I am old and out of touch : P
I just don't get it, though. I've never had any desire to spend any amount of my time watching people play videogames or talking about the videogames they're playing. Unless maybe they're a friend sitting on my couch. And even then there's the fact that eventually they'll hand me the controller and it'll be their turn to watch me. That's the closest thing to a positive experience I've had with LPs.
I can't imagine taking the time to watch someone else play videogames, even as a factor in my decision making of whether or not to buy a game (these days, I usually just buy the games I have any interest in, although some of the games I spend the most hours on are completely free, so it balances out) LET ALONE as a substitute to actually playing the game. I've never seen any LP of a videogame that I thought was particularly entertaining or that added any value to the game footage. Either it's a game I want to play--in which case I'd rather be playing it--or it isn't, in which case I'd rather not be watching it.
And on the other side of things, as an indie developer, I definitely haven't particularly enjoyed or "profited from" the few LPs that have been done of my games.
Maybe it would be different if a really high profile LPer person--and again, I totally don't understand how or why that is a thing someone can be, because I don't think playing videogames and blabbing about them is or should be a marketable skill--picked up one of my obscure old RPGMaker games and lifted them to a major audience. (I did enjoy YellowMagic's LP series of old Iron Gaia 1, for the most part, although being the rampant egomaniac I clearly am I found myself occasionally wishing he'd ramble less and talk about the game more.)
As to the issue in question, I really don't have an opinion besides finding the hold thing kind of bewildering.
I don't know if going after LPers will help or hurt, but I will agree with unity that it's mofuckin' hard out there for a pimp. While I don't really make videogames anymore -- until I do again, shit I've said that before -- I do make and sell games for my living, and it's a brutal business to be in. Thankfully I married well and have a nice financial cushion, otherwise I'd so be dying in a gutter for my dreams of making a living as a creative artist and game designer.
This such a false equivalency I could puke. The MST3K gang are adding content and value in the form of "jokes! professional jokes! by professional comedy professionals" usually to movies that are terribad in the first place. Jokes that are painstakingly scripted and of the highest quality. Don't compare them to something like that pewdiepie asshole who just plays random videogames and makes stupid noises.
I just don't get it, though. I've never had any desire to spend any amount of my time watching people play videogames or talking about the videogames they're playing. Unless maybe they're a friend sitting on my couch. And even then there's the fact that eventually they'll hand me the controller and it'll be their turn to watch me. That's the closest thing to a positive experience I've had with LPs.
I can't imagine taking the time to watch someone else play videogames, even as a factor in my decision making of whether or not to buy a game (these days, I usually just buy the games I have any interest in, although some of the games I spend the most hours on are completely free, so it balances out) LET ALONE as a substitute to actually playing the game. I've never seen any LP of a videogame that I thought was particularly entertaining or that added any value to the game footage. Either it's a game I want to play--in which case I'd rather be playing it--or it isn't, in which case I'd rather not be watching it.
And on the other side of things, as an indie developer, I definitely haven't particularly enjoyed or "profited from" the few LPs that have been done of my games.
Maybe it would be different if a really high profile LPer person--and again, I totally don't understand how or why that is a thing someone can be, because I don't think playing videogames and blabbing about them is or should be a marketable skill--picked up one of my obscure old RPGMaker games and lifted them to a major audience. (I did enjoy YellowMagic's LP series of old Iron Gaia 1, for the most part, although being the rampant egomaniac I clearly am I found myself occasionally wishing he'd ramble less and talk about the game more.)
As to the issue in question, I really don't have an opinion besides finding the hold thing kind of bewildering.
Making commercial games is a risky process. I have all of one game commercially available and the effort almost wasn't worth the (very small) monetary payoff. It's a rough, messy, cutthroat marketplace. But if you want sales, you have to plan ahead and build the game accordingly. It's the sad truth of the matter, and I don't think limiting LPs is going to help in any way, shape or form.
I don't know if going after LPers will help or hurt, but I will agree with unity that it's mofuckin' hard out there for a pimp. While I don't really make videogames anymore -- until I do again, shit I've said that before -- I do make and sell games for my living, and it's a brutal business to be in. Thankfully I married well and have a nice financial cushion, otherwise I'd so be dying in a gutter for my dreams of making a living as a creative artist and game designer.
Do you also feel that the MST3K team doesn't deserve any income?
This such a false equivalency I could puke. The MST3K gang are adding content and value in the form of "jokes! professional jokes! by professional comedy professionals" usually to movies that are terribad in the first place. Jokes that are painstakingly scripted and of the highest quality. Don't compare them to something like that pewdiepie asshole who just plays random videogames and makes stupid noises.
(I did enjoy YellowMagic's LP series of old Iron Gaia 1, for the most part, although being the rampant egomaniac I clearly am I found myself occasionally wishing he'd ramble less and talk about the game more.)Oh shit you're back! I guess I should go back to LP'ing Iron Gaia hehehehe
I think it's pretty clear cut that if someone uses your content in a manner that you did not intend, you have the right to ask for it to be taken down.
You can argue the morals of a developer taking an action like the above, sure, but I'm having trouble seeing why in such a case the content should *not* be taken down.
However, with regards to LPs affecting sales of That Dragon, Cancer: Maybe my understanding of the game is faulty, but I'm having trouble figuring out who on Earth would want to play a game about a child dying of terminal illness??? That sounds horrifying.
