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BALDUR'S GATE SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR CONTROVERSY
Posts
Kaliesto
583
Kaliesto
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Closehttp://nichegamer.com/2016/04/04/tale-dragons-memes-dragonspears-writing-horrid/
Update:
This article is pretty misleading...I got a more of a better perspective over at the BG forums.
Update:
This article is pretty misleading...I got a more of a better perspective over at the BG forums.
While not too related to the OP, I better get this in before this topic goes full cheeckbones:
https://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142/posts/10156746522575453?pnref=story
And for anyone who doesant know who ed greenwood is(Hint hes the guy behind forgotten realms basically): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Greenwood
And yes, the game at the center of this controversy is a Baldurs Gate game, which for those who arent verse in D&D, is in the world of forgotten realms
https://www.facebook.com/ed.greenwood.142/posts/10156746522575453?pnref=story
And for anyone who doesant know who ed greenwood is(Hint hes the guy behind forgotten realms basically): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Greenwood
And yes, the game at the center of this controversy is a Baldurs Gate game, which for those who arent verse in D&D, is in the world of forgotten realms
Kaliesto
583
I've been talking to the BG forum people, and does appear there seems to be misleading accusations. The real issue throughout all this is that the Writer touched on characters that was not hers, and the characters felt off because of that.
Ed~<3
Some people seem to have a problem with how the characterisation was done, not that it actually exists.
Some people seem to have a problem with how the characterisation was done, not that it actually exists.
Bigotry has no place in gaming or in the rest of the world. The way the character was portrayed, though, does deserve some criticism. The character basically just walks up to the player and tells him how great it is to be transgendered and the player (even if evil) only has nice and kind conversation options to pick from when replying. I hope they make the character a joinable companion in the future, so she can be fleshed out a lot more. As she is now she is basically just a political add.That said, this is probably not the main reason/attitude on display.
oh them gooblygoobers
But let me get this straight: they screwed with pre-established things in a much-beloved franchise/game by many people, botched it (beyond writing, as it seems there are many bugs present according to reviews (how does one manage to break what worked for nearly 2 decades??)), are wondering why people think their thing is crap and are being called out on it, and, to top it off, are fumbling the handling of the situation?
Have I got this?
EDIT: also this - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50420/my-thoughts-on-mizhena-as-a-transgender-person-myself
depending on one's perspective, this can be said about anything.
But let me get this straight: they screwed with pre-established things in a much-beloved franchise/game by many people, botched it (beyond writing, as it seems there are many bugs present according to reviews (how does one manage to break what worked for nearly 2 decades??)), are wondering why people think their thing is crap and are being called out on it, and, to top it off, are fumbling the handling of the situation?
Have I got this?
EDIT: also this - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50420/my-thoughts-on-mizhena-as-a-transgender-person-myself
author=Jude
Seems like he's upset about a whole lot of nothing.
depending on one's perspective, this can be said about anything.
LightningLord2
230
I like it when people whine about the writing without giving any concrete points in which the writing is faulty - it conveys that the complainer has no idea what they're saying.
Also, while you can like or dislike Mizhena and her role in the game, I don't think it warrants such an absurd amount of hatred. However, I made a thread some time ago related to this, so I'm open to the topic of transgender people in games in general.
Also, while you can like or dislike Mizhena and her role in the game, I don't think it warrants such an absurd amount of hatred. However, I made a thread some time ago related to this, so I'm open to the topic of transgender people in games in general.
Kaliesto
583
You see, there’s a significant contingent of the mob who suggests that the problem with Mizhena was not her very existence, but the fact that she was badly written and tokenized. No real trans person, they claim, would talk so freely and so quickly to a stranger about their history. An even more interesting permutation of this claim has mutated on the Steam forums, prompted by one transgender poster, Jinx, who angrily declaims Amber Scott and says:
“Thank you so much from a trans gamer for painting a target on our backs once again so you can virtue signal how progressive you are. It wouldn't be enough to just, I don't know, put a trans person in a game and have them there as a character. No, it has to be a political statement and you have to just let everyone know it.”
I don't know what is going on with all that, but looks like it is getting out of hand.
===================================================================================
The problem for me is how Amber Scott tried to change Jaheira & Safana after reading her negative opinions on the two characters. Jaheira is less of a problem if she was trying to change her to her BG2 self then that makes more sense, but Safana suddenly made a personality switch out of no where, and it just felt off for everyone playing (I think Safana appears in BG2, but I'm not sure on that).
I have other lesser issues like the Goblin knowing something about Racism (That is way out of place for a Goblin to know something about that).
I think what made things worse for Amber is when she made a very poorly worded post one day, and it rubbed people the wrong way. Whether she was joking or not...that was just a bad situation.
Here is something else that seems more in-depth in what is going on:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/269735/Opinion_The_Siege_of_Dragonspear_drama_and_the_video_game_community.php
LightningLord2
230
I have no problem with Amber Scott pissing off fake gamer guys, as discouraging whiny manbabies from playing a game makes the community a better place.
Drastically changing a setting or character is always pretty bad for people who are familiar with it, so they usually won't like it even if the new version is much better.
Mizhena being transgender would probably not feel to outstanding if she wasn't the only transgender person in the game. In fact, I would support the ability to tell her that you were also wrongly identified as a boy/girl.
Drastically changing a setting or character is always pretty bad for people who are familiar with it, so they usually won't like it even if the new version is much better.
Mizhena being transgender would probably not feel to outstanding if she wasn't the only transgender person in the game. In fact, I would support the ability to tell her that you were also wrongly identified as a boy/girl.
So basically they outsourced the writing to Tumblr? What an awesome and inspired decision.
I should really check out this Baldur's Gate thing one of these days, anyway.
I should really check out this Baldur's Gate thing one of these days, anyway.
Max McGee
So basically they outsourced the writing to Tumblr? What an awesome and inspired decision.
I should really check out this Baldur's Gate thing one of these days, anyway.
i mean i'm pretty sure it's pretty awful on both radical ends of the TiA/KiA vs Overrepresentation (or something? I refuse to say "SJW" in such a way) line, mr. vivian james
lightninglord
something
there have been many examples and descriptions given in the three-four places on the site that this is currently being discussed, explaining how the language and presentation is iffy (what a terribly-structured sentence)
Drastically changing a setting or character is always pretty bad for people who are familiar with it, so they usually won't like it even if the new version is much better.
i'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say here. if it's "it's automatically better because it has representation," i'd hope that you as one of the biggest advocates of it on this site would understand that not all representation is good, valid, helpful or necessary.
while i myself am not trans*, i know that shitty gay characters gets my goat. from what i've seen (and again, what has been reported/linked to on rmn) mizhena is a shitty trans* character.
Crystalgate
694
Here's what I got:
1) There is an actual problem with the writing and the implementation of certain subjects.
2) A lot of people citing 1) would not have been happier had the writing been better, they are when it comes down to it, just bigots.
3) Other people cite 2) to ward of criticism and pretend that 1) isn't a thing.
1) There is an actual problem with the writing and the implementation of certain subjects.
2) A lot of people citing 1) would not have been happier had the writing been better, they are when it comes down to it, just bigots.
3) Other people cite 2) to ward of criticism and pretend that 1) isn't a thing.
What is it about these writers who have no remorse over shitting on something that's already established within a fan base just because it doesn't fit with their viewpoint on how stories should be told?
Based on what I've read so far, I actually agree that Mizhena is a poorly written character and that her overall construction demonstrates a lack of actual knowledge of the trans community itself. Also...
... Amber, you don't promote equality and awareness by shoe-horning it in and merely switching the same roles; that's not real diversity. Rather, why not represent both the "common" portrayals and the "minority" portrayals functioning cohesively in the same world, as opposed to stripping it of all the common portrayals altogether? That's actually what the "real world" is, not to mention in a roleplaying game, you could let players choose for themselves how they want to respond to it, instead of getting to a point where it's blatantly obvious you are imposing one viewpoint over another (not saying games aren't political, they are, but that's something to be aware of and something that can be made less off-putting to an audience provided you manipulate it in clever ways).
The fact that she even labels herself as "SJW" even as a joke kind of gives me signs that she's a total hack, honestly.
Based on what I've read so far, I actually agree that Mizhena is a poorly written character and that her overall construction demonstrates a lack of actual knowledge of the trans community itself. Also...
... Amber, you don't promote equality and awareness by shoe-horning it in and merely switching the same roles; that's not real diversity. Rather, why not represent both the "common" portrayals and the "minority" portrayals functioning cohesively in the same world, as opposed to stripping it of all the common portrayals altogether? That's actually what the "real world" is, not to mention in a roleplaying game, you could let players choose for themselves how they want to respond to it, instead of getting to a point where it's blatantly obvious you are imposing one viewpoint over another (not saying games aren't political, they are, but that's something to be aware of and something that can be made less off-putting to an audience provided you manipulate it in clever ways).
The fact that she even labels herself as "SJW" even as a joke kind of gives me signs that she's a total hack, honestly.
author=Ratty524
What is it about these writers who have no remorse over shitting on something that's already established within a fan base just because it doesn't fit with their viewpoint on how stories should be told?
Amen, brother.
It's bullshit.
I saw a pretty great post on Reddit about this whole thing;
If you're unaware, 'Gannon' is a reference to Arcade Gannon, a gay character in Fallout New Vegas (a very well written game) who is gay, but it's written so fluidly into his character that you very well may play the entire game, multiple times, and never know, unless that fact is relevant to the conversation you're having with him.
Thoughts?
author=guy
There's a personal test i have for LGBT characters in games, it's called the Gannon test.
Basically, if you can play the entire game, and never know their orientation. It's good. Because sexuality isn't the entire basis of their personality.
If you're unaware, 'Gannon' is a reference to Arcade Gannon, a gay character in Fallout New Vegas (a very well written game) who is gay, but it's written so fluidly into his character that you very well may play the entire game, multiple times, and never know, unless that fact is relevant to the conversation you're having with him.
Thoughts?
I totally agree, Feld. Also works with Veronica from the same game. Both you can find out their orientation from talking to them. But they don't say it outright but rather in passing.
Gannon more so I believe but still.
Gannon more so I believe but still.
I'm definitely not saying that it's a requirement, or that someone should ever feel they have to hide their sexuality. Of course not.
I'm just saying that when people poorly write in LGBT characters in fiction, and they write their character to more or less go "HEY GUYS I'M GAY LOOK HOW GAY I AM", it just seems...fake. Like, I know tons of gay people in real life. I knew a transitioning person (and tons of gay people) while in the military.
None of them really act that way. Even the gay people I know who are like, (in the words of a gay friend) mad fruity, are so sincerely and honestly, and not artificially trying to make a statement or anything. They're just real. Real people.
If you're going to be inclusive, include.
I'm just saying that when people poorly write in LGBT characters in fiction, and they write their character to more or less go "HEY GUYS I'M GAY LOOK HOW GAY I AM", it just seems...fake. Like, I know tons of gay people in real life. I knew a transitioning person (and tons of gay people) while in the military.
None of them really act that way. Even the gay people I know who are like, (in the words of a gay friend) mad fruity, are so sincerely and honestly, and not artificially trying to make a statement or anything. They're just real. Real people.
If you're going to be inclusive, include.
I think that "you shouldn't know unless it comes up explicitly" works for some characters and not for others. NV was written quite a few years ago, in a more conservative time. Compare it to the recent Dragon Age: Inquisition, where Dorian and Iron Bull's sexualities are a huge part of their character. Dorian is on the cusp of, as MOG's friend put it, "mad fruity," and it fits him perfectly.
Dorian also never shakes your hand upon meeting you, saying "hi i love cock." You still know he is le ghey before his personal quest though, because it's a part of him -- just like any of the myriad playboy characters in other RPGs (I see Ringabel from Bravely Default shit on a lot around here :< ).
Granted, DA:I's Krem has a pretty annoying (thankfully optional) exposition bit that undermines an otherwise wonderful character -- one of my favorite NPCs in Skyhold, even. I sincerely hope he's a PC in DA4, even if he might need some advice from Leliana. Still, it takes a few hours of having Krem around before you can trigger that conversation with TIB.
(Re: TIB's sexuality, he's just mad kinky.)
Sera is probably the closest to the "hide your gays"... until you put a Qunari lady in front of her, anyway. Precious Sera. Best character. I will romance her with a Qunari mage one day because I love her and want to make her suffer... sweetly.
Trespasser spoilers (about Sera):
i'm so glad she winds up with dagna i'm so happy for her omg.
Dorian also never shakes your hand upon meeting you, saying "hi i love cock." You still know he is le ghey before his personal quest though, because it's a part of him -- just like any of the myriad playboy characters in other RPGs (I see Ringabel from Bravely Default shit on a lot around here :< ).
Granted, DA:I's Krem has a pretty annoying (thankfully optional) exposition bit that undermines an otherwise wonderful character -- one of my favorite NPCs in Skyhold, even. I sincerely hope he's a PC in DA4, even if he might need some advice from Leliana. Still, it takes a few hours of having Krem around before you can trigger that conversation with TIB.
(Re: TIB's sexuality, he's just mad kinky.)
Sera is probably the closest to the "hide your gays"... until you put a Qunari lady in front of her, anyway. Precious Sera. Best character. I will romance her with a Qunari mage one day because I love her and want to make her suffer... sweetly.
Trespasser spoilers (about Sera):
i'm so glad she winds up with dagna i'm so happy for her omg.
author=Craze
I think that "you shouldn't know unless it comes up explicitly" works for some characters and not for others. NV was written quite a few years ago, in a more conservative time. Compare it to the recent Dragon Age: Inquisition, where Dorian and Iron Bull's sexualities are a huge part of their character. Dorian is on the cusp of, as MOG's friend put it, "mad fruity," and it fits him perfectly.
Dorian also never shakes your hand upon meeting you, saying "hi i love cock." You still know he is le ghey before his personal quest though, because it's a part of him -- just like any of the myriad playboy characters in other RPGs (I see Ringabel from Bravely Default shit on a lot around here :< ).
Granted, DA:I's Krem has a pretty annoying (thankfully optional) exposition bit that undermines an otherwise wonderful character -- one of my favorite NPCs in Skyhold, even. I sincerely hope he's a PC in DA4, even if he might need some advice from Leliana. Still, it takes a few hours of having Krem around before you can trigger that conversation with TIB.
(Re: TIB's sexuality, he's just mad kinky.)
Sera is probably the closest to the "hide your gays"... until you put a Qunari lady in front of her, anyway. Precious Sera. Best character. I will romance her with a Qunari mage one day because I love her and want to make her suffer... sweetly.
I think this is a great post.
Dorian and Iron Bull are really good examples of characters who's sexualities are really big part of their character and personality, and that's fine! Many people in real life are that way! I think it's totally fine to make that a big beacon if that's a sincere, real shit, part of your personality, regardless of your sexuality. I have a friend in real life who's sexuality is a huge part of his personality; he's a stand up guy, but going balls deep into as many women as possible before he dies takes up a pretty big slice of his pie. If a story were to be written about him without including that, well, it just wouldn't be an accurate depiction of his character.
Sometimes life is that way. The challenge is to have the dexterity to be able to write that way.
I haven't played this game or seen the character in question so I can't speak to whether it's specifically problematic or not. But the mere existence of trans characters really shouldn't be a cause for anyone to get up in arms in 2016.
Now, maybe people have a problem with having a character exist merely to say 'hi I'm trans have i mentioned I'm trans?' and maybe that is indeed a problem if characters like that exist only as window dressing but would it really be better for those characters not to exist at all?
Now, maybe people have a problem with having a character exist merely to say 'hi I'm trans have i mentioned I'm trans?' and maybe that is indeed a problem if characters like that exist only as window dressing but would it really be better for those characters not to exist at all?
