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BALDUR'S GATE SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR CONTROVERSY
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Feldschlacht IV
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Closeauthor=Soli
Now, maybe people have a problem with having a character exist merely to say 'hi I'm trans have i mentioned I'm trans?' and maybe that is indeed a problem if characters like that exist only as window dressing but would it really be better for those characters not to exist at all?
That is a complicated question to answer.
In a vacuum, or rather, a perfect world, it could be argued that poor implementation of something is worse than not having that thing at all. In some cases, with some things, this is true, straight up.
However in writing, we can allot some 'growing pains' for sensitive elements that, when its all said and done, would make for a much richer environment for everyone. I think its permissible for someone to come to bat with a gay character, a trans character, a minority character, and miss, and do better next time.
With helpful criticism (and maybe some terrible missteps that pisses people off), those slow steps add up to that final goal at the end.
Again, I'm not super plugged into this alleged 'controversy' but a character merely mentioning that they're trans shouldn't be considered a misstep.
A character shouldn't have to be about The Trans Experience just to be allowed to be trans and exist in a video game, is all I'm saying.
A character shouldn't have to be about The Trans Experience just to be allowed to be trans and exist in a video game, is all I'm saying.
Okay, what I'm seeing is that a trans character exists, and if you chat with her she will mention that she is trans, and people are upset that this trans character was not fleshed out more and thus including her without adding more to her was a bad decision.
Basically, they are arguing that this trans character's existence has not been properly justified.
I have pretty severe issues with that argument and am inclined to call the whole controversy 'bullshit' based on that but maybe there's something I'm missing.
Basically, they are arguing that this trans character's existence has not been properly justified.
I have pretty severe issues with that argument and am inclined to call the whole controversy 'bullshit' based on that but maybe there's something I'm missing.
Well, in the scene in question, you ask the character how she got her name, to which she replies that she was born a man but is actually a woman and so choose a name based on random syllables from multiple languages that all have special meaning for her. I personally thought it was a big, unnecessary exposition fairy. You just asked what her name was. Almost all of the answer was a bunch of stuff that you don't even ask about.
I didn't have a really big problem with it, but I did think a lot of it was unnecessary.
Edit: Seriously though, when I write, or when I edit someone else's writing, I run a really tight ship. If there's exposition, there better be a good reason for it, it had better look good, and there had better not be a better way to present it or I will chop it to pieces. If I were the editor of this game, it would not have made it past my desk. Exposition fairy is one of my pet peeves.
I didn't have a really big problem with it, but I did think a lot of it was unnecessary.
Edit: Seriously though, when I write, or when I edit someone else's writing, I run a really tight ship. If there's exposition, there better be a good reason for it, it had better look good, and there had better not be a better way to present it or I will chop it to pieces. If I were the editor of this game, it would not have made it past my desk. Exposition fairy is one of my pet peeves.
Shinan
4314
author=Ratty524
What is it about these writers who have no remorse over shitting on something that's already established within a fan base just because it doesn't fit with their viewpoint on how stories should be told?
Well fanworks aren't canon. I read some comment about some character changing their demeanour in this expansion. (I just checked the link in the original topic and it's there:
They completely altered Safana’s personality. No longer is she anything close to resembling the sultry seductress that defined her character both in vanilla Baldur’s Gate and various user based mods over the last 18 years.
(emphasis mine)
Being angry that the personality of a character in a bunch of user-made mods isn't the same as in an officially sanctioned product is... Well I guess it's okay to be a bit sad that the character wasn't who the fanfiction thought it was. But fanfiction is fanfiction.
I mean Star Wars has done this (and does this officially now too with the "Legends" thing). Like who imagined that Darth Vader was a whiny kid? Well it's canon now and we can be as upset as we want about it. But it doesn't change the fact that Vader is a whiny emo.
soli, amber scott has said that it was included because she wants to force more non-cis/straight/male people into games. but forcing isn't how you make anything worth including. imo all writing should add toward the larger themes of the game, lore of the world, or characterization of the main party. mizhena seems pretty fucking weak in that context -- the same as an npc who did nothing but say "my pancakes were dry today" or "let me tell you a very long and pointless story about my daughter's birth." (not that birthing rituals COULDN'T be an interesting part of your world's lore, but bear with me (HAHAHAH))
it doesn't necessarily need to be more fleshed-out if she's just some random npc, but it just seems super carless and arbitrary in this instance. it's amber scott saying something about her desire to put stuff into games, not about the world of baldur's gate.
the other thing (besides mizhena existing solely to say "i'm trans") is that it's just fuckin weird. i'm not just saying "i wouldn't tell people randomly that i was born the wrong sex", but that numerous reactions by trans* people to mizhena that i've read are that "i wouldn't tell people randomly that i was born the wrong sex." it's not like there's a trans* awareness rally going on anywhere except scott's head. (i now want to see a trans* awareness conversation going on in the library of a high school game or something, led by one of the MCs even if it's just in the background of the game's events)
if you want to make a trans* character in a game, treat them with care. or, just write them and know that they are trans* and possibly hint a few times if it's really that important. it sounds like I'm saying "hide your gays" (which I'm not an advocate for) but what i'm really saying is "improve your writing." i don't expect queer characters or questioning characters to just say "i want to fuck a dinosaur." unless you're doing a game about my students who have no impulse control because i've been told that before, but, i mean, don't make a game about my students. it would either be terrible or it would be good and i'd cry a lot. OR, if you plan to have it be part of the major themes of the story, then own your responsibilty to represent properly . do your research.
tl;dr: i want more trans*, queer, etc. characters but i don't want hollow npcs. maybe even trans*-ness is too delicate and personal for a two-line npc. include it in your stories, but let's be careful? maybe talk to some people who have similar experiences?
i hope that amber scott gets some flak for careless inclusion, but if she gets death threats or anything i will be =|. she probably already has death threats though because OMG ANYTHING REMOTELY NON-CIS IS SJWISM INVASION OMG fuasndfonas huhustut up scott isn't an impressive writer but you aren't an impressive exampel of cognitive thought
it doesn't necessarily need to be more fleshed-out if she's just some random npc, but it just seems super carless and arbitrary in this instance. it's amber scott saying something about her desire to put stuff into games, not about the world of baldur's gate.
the other thing (besides mizhena existing solely to say "i'm trans") is that it's just fuckin weird. i'm not just saying "i wouldn't tell people randomly that i was born the wrong sex", but that numerous reactions by trans* people to mizhena that i've read are that "i wouldn't tell people randomly that i was born the wrong sex." it's not like there's a trans* awareness rally going on anywhere except scott's head. (i now want to see a trans* awareness conversation going on in the library of a high school game or something, led by one of the MCs even if it's just in the background of the game's events)
if you want to make a trans* character in a game, treat them with care. or, just write them and know that they are trans* and possibly hint a few times if it's really that important. it sounds like I'm saying "hide your gays" (which I'm not an advocate for) but what i'm really saying is "improve your writing." i don't expect queer characters or questioning characters to just say "i want to fuck a dinosaur." unless you're doing a game about my students who have no impulse control because i've been told that before, but, i mean, don't make a game about my students. it would either be terrible or it would be good and i'd cry a lot. OR, if you plan to have it be part of the major themes of the story, then own your responsibilty to represent properly . do your research.
tl;dr: i want more trans*, queer, etc. characters but i don't want hollow npcs. maybe even trans*-ness is too delicate and personal for a two-line npc. include it in your stories, but let's be careful? maybe talk to some people who have similar experiences?
i hope that amber scott gets some flak for careless inclusion, but if she gets death threats or anything i will be =|. she probably already has death threats though because OMG ANYTHING REMOTELY NON-CIS IS SJWISM INVASION OMG fuasndfonas huhustut up scott isn't an impressive writer but you aren't an impressive exampel of cognitive thought
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
author=Craze
i hope that amber scott gets some flak for careless inclusion, but if she gets death threats or anything i will be =|. she probably already has death threats though because OMG ANYTHING REMOTELY NON-CIS IS SJWISM INVASION OMG fuasndfonas huhustut up scott isn't an impressive writer but you aren't an impressive exampel of cognitive thought
I feel this is as good a time as any to bring this up. It came out smoother when I was talking to myself during a walk, but the message is still there. Warning: it brings up that-which-must-not-be-named, but I believe it's important to call it out.
author=Me
It's funny, because I was thinking about this whole divide thing myself recently.
I think we both struck on essentially the same thing here. Of course I was pondering how and why "no women play games" became/remains a thing, but it's roughly the same.
People from all walks of life have been around video games since they were invented. Back in the day, video games were things only nerds played; typically nerds who were also outcasts. To find that one person who would openly admit that they play games was such an exhilarating experience that we would wind up cleaving ourselves to them and forming friendships on that alone. This was all before the internet, which now allows us to communicate instantly with people all over the world, but as this video points out, at an unmistakable price.
Girls were believed to have more important things to worry about (likely more peer-pressure), like academia and outer beauty, so they were dismissed from the games pool. Reinforce this belief for a couple of decades and by the time the internet rolls around you've found "girl" to be an acronym for "guy in real life". There was a distinct divide between the sexes due to expectations which bred a massive misunderstanding, which would ultimately boil over with the events of GamerGate on one side and the quote-unquote "social justice warriors" on the other.
Now we're stuck in this civil war of sorts because what once was an intimate and sensitive topic has blown up into a worldwide phenomenon, something no one was - or even could be - ready for. The sad thing is that this was waiting just below the surface, waiting for someone to open Pandora's Box. And despite what some might believe, the catalyst wasn't Zoe Quinn, her game or its coverage, or even Eron Gjoni bringing his ex-girlfriend's supposed infidelity to light... it was us.
The one thing that brought us all together when no one else would give us the time has now become our greatest passion and indeed our greatest weapon to cut ourselves away from others. We're afraid to let go, to change.
tl;dr: We had a physical and social construct of what a video game should be, but now the cat's out of the bag and we're running around like chickens with our heads cut off. It's our own Land of Confusion, and there's not much love to go around. Together, we're the only ones who can make things right.
Kaliesto
583
The ironic thing is about the whole thing is that world of Toril has LONG since had Trans-like characters, but it did not require anything physical to change your gender, but with only the power of magic. It baffles me most people completely forgot about it.
But then again we're doing with a new generation of gamers who know nothing about Toril, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, etc. They're too busy always making a big fuss over a lot of things, and are very impatient (notice how they just want a new world all the time without really exploring the previous one)? It's a waste of a developer's time these days. This is why I loved Neverwinter Nights because they kept Toril & Oerth alive for many years. Right now Neverwinter Online is carrying the torch for Toril, and there will be a upcoming game for PS4 set in Toril too (if it ever comes out).
But then again we're doing with a new generation of gamers who know nothing about Toril, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, etc. They're too busy always making a big fuss over a lot of things, and are very impatient (notice how they just want a new world all the time without really exploring the previous one)? It's a waste of a developer's time these days. This is why I loved Neverwinter Nights because they kept Toril & Oerth alive for many years. Right now Neverwinter Online is carrying the torch for Toril, and there will be a upcoming game for PS4 set in Toril too (if it ever comes out).
It's how Scott handled the situation compared to now a CEO stepping in and saying "we didn't think much of it" Of course that's what he is saying now, even if he didn't have everything to do with it.
They are trying to soften that blow, I get it. But it feels like it was pretty intentional of her part, if that is how she really felt and wasn't just saying something against the backlash.
edit: Also, while I know the three line dialogue is needed, it doesn't feel like something they should have tried to slap in haphazardly just because of a limit. It's hilarious what the internet will do these days and what stupid people can accomplish.
Years ago when Baldur's Gate came out, this wouldn't even be an issue. At least not to the masses that make themselves and their ridiculous ideals heard.
edit2: Jeeze, sorry to keep jumping back to this but it's just what I'm thinking.
The whole "refugees" thing is hilarious. Like there hasn't been media on those topics before, or it having to be about something real world. Refugees is just a thing in a lot of other countries outside of the US. shit fucking happens and people flee. God, I hate internet warriors. Seriously, fuck SJW and anyone that connects these dots. Can we not play Call of Duty anymore without killing middle eastern terrorists or nazis???
They are trying to soften that blow, I get it. But it feels like it was pretty intentional of her part, if that is how she really felt and wasn't just saying something against the backlash.
edit: Also, while I know the three line dialogue is needed, it doesn't feel like something they should have tried to slap in haphazardly just because of a limit. It's hilarious what the internet will do these days and what stupid people can accomplish.
Years ago when Baldur's Gate came out, this wouldn't even be an issue. At least not to the masses that make themselves and their ridiculous ideals heard.
edit2: Jeeze, sorry to keep jumping back to this but it's just what I'm thinking.
The whole "refugees" thing is hilarious. Like there hasn't been media on those topics before, or it having to be about something real world. Refugees is just a thing in a lot of other countries outside of the US. shit fucking happens and people flee. God, I hate internet warriors. Seriously, fuck SJW and anyone that connects these dots. Can we not play Call of Duty anymore without killing middle eastern terrorists or nazis???
Kaliesto
583
They really took issue with Refugees? Why are there so many loud mouths with no common sense? Education seems to be failing these days.
ugh
ugh
