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WHY MMOS ALL SUCK!
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bulmabriefs144
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CloseLet's review. Where did the popularity of MMOs come from?
Animes about MMOs and the idea of traveling with a party based on earlier concept like Final Fantasy (but with real people). But let's look at this model versus the reality.
We have two concepts: Subscription and Free-To-Play.
Subscription overall seems to be based on providing a decent and balanced game. The game isn't cluttered up with ads, and the game is actually based on real challenge. From what I've heard. The problem being that I have never actually managed to get any of these, since they require a steady salary. Either these games eat into time needed to maintain said job, or the job means you have no time nor energy to play the game. Worse, you forget that you had the subscription to the game in the first place, and you rack up payments and debts. Pass.
Next, is the (allegedly) Free-To-Play game. Which winds up being at least as expensive when all is said and done, as most such games are pay-to-win, and virtually unwinnable without effectively buying all the perks you can. Or they have limited areas of exploration.
But you say, companies need to make money! Surely you don't think this stuff comes free! No, I don't. But I also think money should be earned, and the actual experience of gameplay shouldn't feel like horrible grind. Nor should they have potions at well above reasonable price, % drain of exp, and all the other irritating crap.
Let's look at the anime version of the MMO, versus what actually happens. Sword Art Online. An immersive VR game, where people form parties, and battle monsters. Hack Sign, same deal, only quirkier. Only Sense, a skill-based system where characters can craft basically anything. All of these seem like games I might like to play. But the actual game like this seems to be nowhere, instead having games loaded with ads, hackers, and empty of people.
Now, compare the average MMO. I'll pick a side-scroller like MapleStory or LaTale. You choose from a set of classes, each of which further advance to other classes. These classes are not self-sufficient, so as to encourage a team. And yet, finding a party is obnoxiously difficult. For that matter, healers are extremely rare in RPGs. Why? Let me explain the dynamics of the game.
In order to enforce a free to play that makes money, equips and potions are kept high in cost, crafting is difficult (or like Maple, actually costly), or nonexistent. This means one is wholly dependent on drops. Add to this the fact that some games eliminate drops for enemies lower in level, this keeps the player in constant debt to potions. Next, the cleric usually has difficulty finding a decent party, because of screwy party exp sharing, meaning that a cleric often sucks hard trying to beat enemies on their own but also cannot team up. These games then do not have a good party system. When you add that the rules of the game are set up to be harder for potential hackers, ironically, this makes the game hard enough that people are encouraged to hack. Honest gamers now not only have a poorly balanced game that has enforced solo working against them, but hackers making it worse for everyone. Some games (*cough* MapleStory) will even penalize players for kill-stealing (or even being in the same room as) hackers. Nevermind that these jerks came in the room and started raking in everything that I tried to kill, the GM blames me for "working with" the hacker.
Because of this faulty business model of no customer service, punitive (to users, not hackers, who find loopholes) rules, greed, and completely broken balance, the average free-to-play game can be said to have a life cycle.
1. Early Beta Period. Game is usually fun.
2. Admins decide we're not making enough money. Game balance changes to grind heavy with % exp loss. RM goods appear to "help" avoid these issues.
3. Hackers appear.
4. Various issues like anti-spam controls (some games actually create lag while attacking) make gameplay harder for legit users while making hackers unaffected. Game becomes annoying.
5. Game slowly drains of players, making parties difficult to form. Game becomes a ghost town.
There should be a better way to design an MMO. Anyone have a better model?
Animes about MMOs and the idea of traveling with a party based on earlier concept like Final Fantasy (but with real people). But let's look at this model versus the reality.
We have two concepts: Subscription and Free-To-Play.
Subscription overall seems to be based on providing a decent and balanced game. The game isn't cluttered up with ads, and the game is actually based on real challenge. From what I've heard. The problem being that I have never actually managed to get any of these, since they require a steady salary. Either these games eat into time needed to maintain said job, or the job means you have no time nor energy to play the game. Worse, you forget that you had the subscription to the game in the first place, and you rack up payments and debts. Pass.
Next, is the (allegedly) Free-To-Play game. Which winds up being at least as expensive when all is said and done, as most such games are pay-to-win, and virtually unwinnable without effectively buying all the perks you can. Or they have limited areas of exploration.
But you say, companies need to make money! Surely you don't think this stuff comes free! No, I don't. But I also think money should be earned, and the actual experience of gameplay shouldn't feel like horrible grind. Nor should they have potions at well above reasonable price, % drain of exp, and all the other irritating crap.
Let's look at the anime version of the MMO, versus what actually happens. Sword Art Online. An immersive VR game, where people form parties, and battle monsters. Hack Sign, same deal, only quirkier. Only Sense, a skill-based system where characters can craft basically anything. All of these seem like games I might like to play. But the actual game like this seems to be nowhere, instead having games loaded with ads, hackers, and empty of people.
Now, compare the average MMO. I'll pick a side-scroller like MapleStory or LaTale. You choose from a set of classes, each of which further advance to other classes. These classes are not self-sufficient, so as to encourage a team. And yet, finding a party is obnoxiously difficult. For that matter, healers are extremely rare in RPGs. Why? Let me explain the dynamics of the game.
In order to enforce a free to play that makes money, equips and potions are kept high in cost, crafting is difficult (or like Maple, actually costly), or nonexistent. This means one is wholly dependent on drops. Add to this the fact that some games eliminate drops for enemies lower in level, this keeps the player in constant debt to potions. Next, the cleric usually has difficulty finding a decent party, because of screwy party exp sharing, meaning that a cleric often sucks hard trying to beat enemies on their own but also cannot team up. These games then do not have a good party system. When you add that the rules of the game are set up to be harder for potential hackers, ironically, this makes the game hard enough that people are encouraged to hack. Honest gamers now not only have a poorly balanced game that has enforced solo working against them, but hackers making it worse for everyone. Some games (*cough* MapleStory) will even penalize players for kill-stealing (or even being in the same room as) hackers. Nevermind that these jerks came in the room and started raking in everything that I tried to kill, the GM blames me for "working with" the hacker.
Because of this faulty business model of no customer service, punitive (to users, not hackers, who find loopholes) rules, greed, and completely broken balance, the average free-to-play game can be said to have a life cycle.
1. Early Beta Period. Game is usually fun.
2. Admins decide we're not making enough money. Game balance changes to grind heavy with % exp loss. RM goods appear to "help" avoid these issues.
3. Hackers appear.
4. Various issues like anti-spam controls (some games actually create lag while attacking) make gameplay harder for legit users while making hackers unaffected. Game becomes annoying.
5. Game slowly drains of players, making parties difficult to form. Game becomes a ghost town.
There should be a better way to design an MMO. Anyone have a better model?
Designing a pve game with near-infinite length of equal quality to compact well-designed games is something I feel is barely possible, which is the starting point of most mmos. Nevermind financing it.
But that's me~ The mud I played did it fairly well with lots of hidden things, quests, findings and quirks to keep things fresh. Minigames to master and more, too. Some are playing it mainly for the exploration bits, and leveling isn't as important or crucial necessarily.
Designing small arcs, places and mysteries is far easier to add to a pre-existing world than expanding the biggest baddest bosses. It's still necessary to add those too, of course.
But that's me~ The mud I played did it fairly well with lots of hidden things, quests, findings and quirks to keep things fresh. Minigames to master and more, too. Some are playing it mainly for the exploration bits, and leveling isn't as important or crucial necessarily.
Designing small arcs, places and mysteries is far easier to add to a pre-existing world than expanding the biggest baddest bosses. It's still necessary to add those too, of course.
The big flaw I find with your argument is that you are generalizing the mechanics of a specific kind of game to absolutely every MMO in existence, and considering how many are out there right now, there are always exceptions.
The gating and predatory design tactics you are describing are a result of poor design in a desperate attempt to hook in players without actually engaging them, and while unfortunately commonplace, it's an issue specific to the game itself, not the MMO genre.
The gating and predatory design tactics you are describing are a result of poor design in a desperate attempt to hook in players without actually engaging them, and while unfortunately commonplace, it's an issue specific to the game itself, not the MMO genre.
All MMOs suck because of PvP.
That and the unimaginative/linear loot system, and oft-simplified character build paths.
EDIT:
This person's opinion mirrors my own:
That and the unimaginative/linear loot system, and oft-simplified character build paths.
EDIT:
This person's opinion mirrors my own:
In any case I'm starting to believe that the combination of MOBA + Solo RPG will act as a superior replacement to the downright lazy MMO industry. Solo RPGs offer far better immersion/story and often times, stronger character/build customization. MOBAs may sport less customization, but developers tend to be FAR more agile in responding to and adjusting champion/hero/character stats and (if needed) reworking functionality.
I wish I could argue against this, but after playing the dream that is Final Fantasy XIV, I'm forced to agree in spite of the game. The big thing that stopped me from playing is because if you face an enemy that's "at a certain level" that you can't beat for being too strong, they artificially force your level down. You no longer can just play the game. You have to bend over backwards to accommodate other players.
Before even seeing kentona's video, I was thinking something similar: MMOs are great because of raid content. Everything else tends to just be "uh okay." FF14 is loved for its dungeons and fun raids, even though it has an okay story (a bit long-winded at times) and some beautiful zones. So, genres of games that just do those fun bits are naturally gonna start getting more people (especially if they're not so fucking expensive to play).
so... okay. If MOBAs are just pulling out the PVP aspects of MMOs and making them streamlined and fun (and becoming super popular), and if currently the funnest parts of MMOs right now are raids/ops/dungeons...
Can we make a game that takes the concepts of multiplayer raids but making it streamlined and fun, like MOBAs did with PvP? Have a huge stable of varied heroes that you can select, join a lobby, form a 4-person/8-person/XX-person group, then go on a raid? Skip the PvE grind of an MMO and jump right to raids.
How would a game like that work? Is there a game out there right now that works like that? Diablo 3 Adventure Mode is kinda-sorta like that, but that's unlocked as end-game content...
I'd probably play a game like that.
E:
a MOBE - multiplayer online battle environment, to contrast with a MOBA.
Can we make a game that takes the concepts of multiplayer raids but making it streamlined and fun, like MOBAs did with PvP? Have a huge stable of varied heroes that you can select, join a lobby, form a 4-person/8-person/XX-person group, then go on a raid? Skip the PvE grind of an MMO and jump right to raids.
How would a game like that work? Is there a game out there right now that works like that? Diablo 3 Adventure Mode is kinda-sorta like that, but that's unlocked as end-game content...
I'd probably play a game like that.
E:
a MOBE - multiplayer online battle environment, to contrast with a MOBA.
author=kentona
so... okay. If MOBAs are just pulling out the PVP aspects of MMOs and making them streamlined and fun (and becoming super popular), and if currently the funnest parts of MMOs right now are raids/ops/dungeons...
Can we make a game that takes the concepts of multiplayer raids but making it streamlined and fun, like MOBAs did with PvP? Have a huge stable of varied heroes that you can select, join a lobby, form a 4-person/8-person/XX-person group, then go on a raid? Skip the PvE grind of an MMO and jump right to raids.
How would a game like that work? Is there a game out there right now that works like that? Diablo 3 Adventure Mode is kinda-sorta like that, but that's unlocked as end-game content...
I'd probably play a game like that.
I see where you're going with this - but the thing about Raids is that they are a closed thing. I mean, when you're up against the computer the challenge will not last. That's part of the appeal of MOBAs - the game gives you toys, and you fight against other people using the same toys skillfully and in new ways.
To make your concept work, rather than new heroes, one would instead need constant new challenge maps. And the other thing to consider is reward - the MOBAs all basically allow you to grind up and get small stat rewards as a reward for playing the game often - is that going to have the same structure? People are kinda used to raids dropping cool new equips, but that doesn't really translate well into your scenario.
Yeah, it would probably have to have a stronger or more permanent progression system to act as an incentive. Or maybe some sort of competitive raiding - having 2 teams racing to see who kills the end boss first or something. idk, it'd be cool to explore this idea further.
Another potential idea is to have these raids to be almost puzzle-like - for each to be near impenetrable upon first playing, and only upon many attempts does a further understanding of what is required unfold.
It's like the AR Games that come out, where a bunch of people need to cooperate, but in this case instead of having to travel all over the damned place and deceipher strange encodings and be at the right placfe at the right time, etc etc. The players are instead given a fully self-contained puzzle that requires both traditional raid tactics, and a mind for exploration.
Needed items may only appear after a certain point, or hard to reach locations may hold new lore, encounters that would kill the unprepared, bosses with strange weaknesses... - and as each new map is completed, a new one is unlocked (though, each player is constrained in what they have completed, and is held back)
Think similarly to Final Fantasy ... XIV? There's some ridiculous boss that nobody has been able to defeat properly. All previous defeats havebeen because of bugs - it's an ongoing puzzle. think like that, only as a whole dungeon, and with lore and mystery abounding everywhere - and a growing lore that all players would strive to understand.
It's like the AR Games that come out, where a bunch of people need to cooperate, but in this case instead of having to travel all over the damned place and deceipher strange encodings and be at the right placfe at the right time, etc etc. The players are instead given a fully self-contained puzzle that requires both traditional raid tactics, and a mind for exploration.
Needed items may only appear after a certain point, or hard to reach locations may hold new lore, encounters that would kill the unprepared, bosses with strange weaknesses... - and as each new map is completed, a new one is unlocked (though, each player is constrained in what they have completed, and is held back)
Think similarly to Final Fantasy ... XIV? There's some ridiculous boss that nobody has been able to defeat properly. All previous defeats havebeen because of bugs - it's an ongoing puzzle. think like that, only as a whole dungeon, and with lore and mystery abounding everywhere - and a growing lore that all players would strive to understand.
Gearing and leveling would be like in LoL, where each player starts with basics/nothing, and can buy stuff as they get gold or progress or whatever, and gain levels as fodder is killed. The endboss wouldn't drop loot, but would unlock a new tier of gear.
E:
but still have something like Path of Exile's passives skill tree for permanence, for your player profile.
E:
but still have something like Path of Exile's passives skill tree for permanence, for your player profile.
So, something that comes to mind from reading kentona's comment then Hexatona's reply is Left 4 Dead 2 or 1, I guess works too. But if you're familiar with those games you fight zombies and special infected PVE with co-op or alone or online with 4 human survivors and you go through the maps and try to live etc etc
But the PVP of that is 4 human players(possibly AI but usually four people) vs human controlled special infected who have the help of the common mobs of basic zombies.
Taking kentona's idea and having the raid bosses or semi-boss/minions being player controlled to stop the heroes from there goal might work. How the MOBAs work well because it's all player based just have players play the "bad guys" too.
I don't know how this would work exactly, but it works for Left 4 Dead and is fun. Because it's not just choosing from a list of heroes but there is another side choosing from the baddies to play.
What made me think of this was when the infected side gets a tank(the strongest, scariest infected) it becomes like a boss fight where all four human survivors have to work together to defeat it. While still having to worry about their environments and the other special infected as well as the common infected.
Again, not sure if that translates well or would work but that's what comes to mind about kentona's idea and how it could possibly work without having all the extra PVE grind and people worrying about drops and whatnot.
But the PVP of that is 4 human players(possibly AI but usually four people) vs human controlled special infected who have the help of the common mobs of basic zombies.
Taking kentona's idea and having the raid bosses or semi-boss/minions being player controlled to stop the heroes from there goal might work. How the MOBAs work well because it's all player based just have players play the "bad guys" too.
I don't know how this would work exactly, but it works for Left 4 Dead and is fun. Because it's not just choosing from a list of heroes but there is another side choosing from the baddies to play.
What made me think of this was when the infected side gets a tank(the strongest, scariest infected) it becomes like a boss fight where all four human survivors have to work together to defeat it. While still having to worry about their environments and the other special infected as well as the common infected.
Again, not sure if that translates well or would work but that's what comes to mind about kentona's idea and how it could possibly work without having all the extra PVE grind and people worrying about drops and whatnot.
author=Hexatona
Think similarly to Final Fantasy ... XIV? There's some ridiculous boss that nobody has been able to defeat properly. All previous defeats havebeen because of bugs - it's an ongoing puzzle. think like that, only as a whole dungeon, and with lore and mystery abounding everywhere - and a growing lore that all players would strive to understand.
That was FF11 with either Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden. Any oversights or exploits used to defeat the boss (such as abusing a glitch that basically shut off the enemy AI script) were quickly hotfixed and the players who used said glitch banned. I don't know most of the details but the boss gimmick that got dev intervention over (which was iirc a super vague video) is that the boss could use every class' 2h super move including the White Mages single target 100% heal. Eventually it was discovered that using your own super move right before the boss would magically cancel the boss' cast of it... or something like that. I've heard of it dozens of times third hand so I can't say much about the details. It was always from disillusioned FF11 vets to FF14 newbies (like me) to laughter and groans of pain.
e: added quote for slo'postin'
Corfaisus
"It's frustrating because - as much as Corf is otherwise an irredeemable person - his 2k/3 mapping is on point." ~ psy_wombats
7874
My big complaint with MMOs are expansion packs that are just higher numbers and a new paint job. It works for a while if you really like the game, but eventually you wake up one morning and realize "wow, I'm just logging in/subscribed/buying expansions to maintain the level cap" and call it quits.
And God forbid you should give it a couple of weeks to settle in a game that provides open world PVP. You should just quit now while you're behind.
Phantasy Star Online 1 was pretty good.
And God forbid you should give it a couple of weeks to settle in a game that provides open world PVP. You should just quit now while you're behind.
author=kentona
so... okay. If MOBAs are just pulling out the PVP aspects of MMOs and making them streamlined and fun (and becoming super popular), and if currently the funnest parts of MMOs right now are raids/ops/dungeons...
Can we make a game that takes the concepts of multiplayer raids but making it streamlined and fun, like MOBAs did with PvP? Have a huge stable of varied heroes that you can select, join a lobby, form a 4-person/8-person/XX-person group, then go on a raid? Skip the PvE grind of an MMO and jump right to raids.
How would a game like that work? Is there a game out there right now that works like that? Diablo 3 Adventure Mode is kinda-sorta like that, but that's unlocked as end-game content...
I'd probably play a game like that.
E:
a MOBE - multiplayer online battle environment, to contrast with a MOBA.
Phantasy Star Online 1 was pretty good.
author=kentona
All MMOs suck because of PvP.
That and the unimaginative/linear loot system, and oft-simplified character build paths.
What? PvP is usually the best part of MMOs and that's why it is at the end game.
AubreyTheBard
1801
author=kentona
so... okay. If MOBAs are just pulling out the PVP aspects of MMOs and making them streamlined and fun (and becoming super popular), and if currently the funnest parts of MMOs right now are raids/ops/dungeons...
Can we make a game that takes the concepts of multiplayer raids but making it streamlined and fun, like MOBAs did with PvP? Have a huge stable of varied heroes that you can select, join a lobby, form a 4-person/8-person/XX-person group, then go on a raid? Skip the PvE grind of an MMO and jump right to raids.
How would a game like that work? Is there a game out there right now that works like that? Diablo 3 Adventure Mode is kinda-sorta like that, but that's unlocked as end-game content...
I'd probably play a game like that.
E:
a MOBE - multiplayer online battle environment, to contrast with a MOBA.
I'm not familiar with raids as I've never played a traditional MMORPG to anywhere near endgame, but from what I understand, Global Agenda is a bit like what you're speculating about. Players form teams of four and go through missions, which are basically linear dungeons filled with semi-random mooks, mini-bosses, and a big boss at the end. You're still grinding up to more difficult missions, but you're doing raid-style stuff (as I understand it) right from the start. Part of the reason it works, though, is because it's more about FPS than RPG.
Also, you might not have a great time if you try Global Agenda out now, because it has a small playerbase with very few people doing the low-level stuff these days. The company that made it moved on to other projects, the most successful of which has been...a MOBA! X) Namely Smite.
What truly annoys me in MMOs is how everyone uses the same builds.
MMOs should be these games where eveyone should have the freedom to make whatever character they want and play the game how they want, but in reality you HAVE to make the same character everyone has or you won't be able to get into a mandatory party or guild.
MMOs should be these games where eveyone should have the freedom to make whatever character they want and play the game how they want, but in reality you HAVE to make the same character everyone has or you won't be able to get into a mandatory party or guild.
author=arcanauthor=kentonaWhat? PvP is usually the best part of MMOs and that's why it is at the end game.
All MMOs suck because of PvP.
That and the unimaginative/linear loot system, and oft-simplified character build paths.
other than the fact that class variety is sacrificed for samey-ness for PVP, skills balance is often nerfed for the sake of PVP, PVP builds are lame ("you must use optimal build X else you are a chump!"), and there is no chance for roleplay or methodical playstyles, and PVP does not progress the story at all, and (usually) any rewards are strictly for PVP equipment, and the fact that PVP just isn't fun or engaging to play, then yeah, PVP is alright.
