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TWO PROBLEMS WITH CHARACTERS KILLING THE GAMEPLAY OPTIONS
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Dragnfly
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CloseI'm starting to get some puzzles into my project and it dawned on me that, for various different reasons, the characters shouldn't be struggling with these puzzles.
Example A involves character/player knowledge separation. In this example puzzle, you get the answers by talking to the party, looking at the character art in their status screen and some in the gallery to align tattoos on a mural. I thought this was a fairly innovative Kojima-esque puzzle that would have the players think outside the box to solve it.
The problem is that the character should have no problem solving it. It's her body. It's her tattoos. She should know where each different one goes.
Example B involves character/player intelligence separation. One of the characters is very wise and I noticed that any of the puzzles where they are in the party would be a snap for them to solve. But some of these puzzles are likely going to be difficult. I foresee many players turning to the guide for answers. I've been through these sections with a fine-toothed comb and I can't simply remove the character for those bits.
So my current stance is to just let it go. Games have us do illogical stuff all the time. Especially puzzle adventure games. They even often poke fun at why you need to go through so much just to open a door, or what you need all this random junk for.
But a part of me is worried that the players won't accept it as easily as I do. If that number is too high I'd consider it a problem.
Example A involves character/player knowledge separation. In this example puzzle, you get the answers by talking to the party, looking at the character art in their status screen and some in the gallery to align tattoos on a mural. I thought this was a fairly innovative Kojima-esque puzzle that would have the players think outside the box to solve it.
The problem is that the character should have no problem solving it. It's her body. It's her tattoos. She should know where each different one goes.
Example B involves character/player intelligence separation. One of the characters is very wise and I noticed that any of the puzzles where they are in the party would be a snap for them to solve. But some of these puzzles are likely going to be difficult. I foresee many players turning to the guide for answers. I've been through these sections with a fine-toothed comb and I can't simply remove the character for those bits.
So my current stance is to just let it go. Games have us do illogical stuff all the time. Especially puzzle adventure games. They even often poke fun at why you need to go through so much just to open a door, or what you need all this random junk for.
But a part of me is worried that the players won't accept it as easily as I do. If that number is too high I'd consider it a problem.
Just because you're wise doesn't make you good at puzzles. You could use them to give hints, though, like "Doesn't that look a bit like the tattoo on your left shoulder?"
Red_Nova
Sir Redd of Novus: He who made Prayer of the Faithless that one time, and that was pretty dang rad! :D
9192
Depending on where on the body the tattoo is, this could still work without breaking immersion.
It could very well be that the character is so used to looking at her tattoos in front of a mirror, that she got the patterns backwards when trying to apply the tattoo puzzle to the designs. "Huh, these looks like my tattoos, but something isn't quite right."
It's an honest mistake, and having one the characters attribute the puzzle to the tattoos could give players the push needed in the right direction to fill in the gap themselves.
If the tattoo was on her forearm or something that she could easily look at, then that's one thing, but on her back, lower torso, shoulder, or in any place that would make it difficult for her to look at on her own, I could easily imagine someone slipping up when trying to imagine the design. Especially if the design is rather complex.
It could very well be that the character is so used to looking at her tattoos in front of a mirror, that she got the patterns backwards when trying to apply the tattoo puzzle to the designs. "Huh, these looks like my tattoos, but something isn't quite right."
It's an honest mistake, and having one the characters attribute the puzzle to the tattoos could give players the push needed in the right direction to fill in the gap themselves.
If the tattoo was on her forearm or something that she could easily look at, then that's one thing, but on her back, lower torso, shoulder, or in any place that would make it difficult for her to look at on her own, I could easily imagine someone slipping up when trying to imagine the design. Especially if the design is rather complex.
Also, perhaps instead of being exact replicas of the tattoos they could look like approximate shapes. Like one is kinda like a dog, another like a tree.
TheNecromancer
3160
I don't think most players would even go down that path. When playing a game they don't exactly put themselves in the mindset of the character to that extent. As the dev who came up with the idea with that in mind, it's probably only you and the odd person who likes to roleplay games like a pro.
I would guess that most players are still in their own mindset, thinking about themselves solving the puzzles. Using whatever hints the game is giving. Not about how the digital character would solve the puzzles given the same hints. That kind of thinking is best left with story telling and not interactive gameplay. Like when an actor thinks "I don't need to understand this, my character does".
Maybe if it was a cutscene where the character solves puzzles without player involvement. Like if my party member was a helpless puppy and we got separated, and then the puppy ends up solving a labyrinth of puzzles to meet me at the rendezvous point. I might question how that happened, or assume it was a joke by the dev. But if I was controlling that puppy I would think, this is me playing a game so it doesn't matter that a puppy is colorblind and would never be able to match up these red blue and green objects.
I would guess that most players are still in their own mindset, thinking about themselves solving the puzzles. Using whatever hints the game is giving. Not about how the digital character would solve the puzzles given the same hints. That kind of thinking is best left with story telling and not interactive gameplay. Like when an actor thinks "I don't need to understand this, my character does".
Maybe if it was a cutscene where the character solves puzzles without player involvement. Like if my party member was a helpless puppy and we got separated, and then the puppy ends up solving a labyrinth of puzzles to meet me at the rendezvous point. I might question how that happened, or assume it was a joke by the dev. But if I was controlling that puppy I would think, this is me playing a game so it doesn't matter that a puppy is colorblind and would never be able to match up these red blue and green objects.
BadLuck
2270
Well, there's just going to have to be some level of contrivance in stuff like this. Why could Master Chief only hold 2 weapons on that giant robot suit of his? Why is combat turn-based in RPGs? Why can you only push certain blocks in Zelda: A Link to the Past?
Ultimately, you just have to accept that you're making a game, there's going to be some BS in it. Generally, it's fine to just ignore this, because the player probably won't notice either. You can also try to lampshade some of these issues by making a joke of them. I could see someone poking fun at the character with the tattoos... like... what, you have these tattoos and you don't know what they are? "Well, they all look backwards to me..."
But if trying to be cute about it won't work, like I said, it's a game. People will accept it. I generally wouldn't be willing the harm the gameplay for the sake of the story.
As for the old wise man, a solution to this might be that he's something of a Yoda character, who is reluctant (or even indifferent) to give away information when you should be thinking about it.
Does this puzzle occur in a place where you urgently have to solve it? If not, he could just be something like a applying the socratic method. Maybe he gives hints by asking questions.
Ultimately, you just have to accept that you're making a game, there's going to be some BS in it. Generally, it's fine to just ignore this, because the player probably won't notice either. You can also try to lampshade some of these issues by making a joke of them. I could see someone poking fun at the character with the tattoos... like... what, you have these tattoos and you don't know what they are? "Well, they all look backwards to me..."
But if trying to be cute about it won't work, like I said, it's a game. People will accept it. I generally wouldn't be willing the harm the gameplay for the sake of the story.
As for the old wise man, a solution to this might be that he's something of a Yoda character, who is reluctant (or even indifferent) to give away information when you should be thinking about it.
Does this puzzle occur in a place where you urgently have to solve it? If not, he could just be something like a applying the socratic method. Maybe he gives hints by asking questions.
Aegix_Drakan
6037
author=BadLuck
Ultimately, you just have to accept that you're making a game, there's going to be some BS in it. Generally, it's fine to just ignore this, because the player probably won't notice either.
This.
I try to keep things making sense, but ultimately, the person playing is the player. Who isn't a full time resident of the game's world.
Good points. The tattoo issue is easily solved with reflective interpretation from their owner.
The smarter guy is more of a problem but BadLuck is right in that, while as urgent as any urgent game plot is, they're usually not in any rush-or-die when it comes to any of the puzzles he can help with. So he might just sit back and see what the other two come up with. Them building experiences is a big part of the journey so it does make sense.
I see the problem as worse than just a "why can Master Chief only carry two guns" but I'm satisfied with these two answers.
The smarter guy is more of a problem but BadLuck is right in that, while as urgent as any urgent game plot is, they're usually not in any rush-or-die when it comes to any of the puzzles he can help with. So he might just sit back and see what the other two come up with. Them building experiences is a big part of the journey so it does make sense.
I see the problem as worse than just a "why can Master Chief only carry two guns" but I'm satisfied with these two answers.
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
This would never be an issue in any kind of game other than a JRPG because the player thinks of the character as their avatar. However, in a JRPG, only the main character is your avatar, and the other party members aren't.
I think to a large extent it's fine because the player will feel that the other party members are following their instructions. The player's avatar is the party leader, and the player controls the whole party anyway, so the other characters aren't doing anything unless directed. It only gets potentially weird when it's something really, really character-specific, like an NPC asking you for the name of Cyan's wife when Cyan is in your party. If you have a quiz like that, I think you need to make it feel intentionally abtract and absurd, like it's not a proper part of the world. For example, opening a treasure chest and finding a game-show-in-a-box where you have to answer an announcer's trivia questions to get a key.
I think to a large extent it's fine because the player will feel that the other party members are following their instructions. The player's avatar is the party leader, and the player controls the whole party anyway, so the other characters aren't doing anything unless directed. It only gets potentially weird when it's something really, really character-specific, like an NPC asking you for the name of Cyan's wife when Cyan is in your party. If you have a quiz like that, I think you need to make it feel intentionally abtract and absurd, like it's not a proper part of the world. For example, opening a treasure chest and finding a game-show-in-a-box where you have to answer an announcer's trivia questions to get a key.
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