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[RM2K3] FEEDBACK BEFORE IMPLEMENTING AN IDEA
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Pneumatic
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CloseI'm trying to come up with an idea that will add a little bit of strategy or at least uniqueness to RM2k3's default battle system.
So far what I have is using the attack command or physical skills will cause the exhaustion gauge to rise. Once the gauge tops out, every time you use the attack command or physical skill after that, there's a chance the character will be inflicted with Exhaustion, which halves attack and speed stats. (Or maybe just attack)
The gauge will decrease every time any command other than attack or skills are used, and if the gauge is not at 100%, then every turn after that there's a chance Exhaustion will disappear if the character is afflicted.
For magic, similarly the magic gauge will rise every time spells are used, and decrease when any other type of command is used. If the gauge tops out then every turn after that a spell is used there is a chance the character will be afflicted with magic poisoning, which halves magic power and inflicts damage similar to poison. This one will not disappear without being cured via spell or item.
Weak skills/spells will cause the gauges to rise slowly, stronger skills/spells or those that target all enemies or the whole party will increase it more. I thought this might be a good way to add some strategy to battles and prevent the strongest skills and spells from being spammed over and over, but what I don't want is for it to become too tedious. There will be spells/skills/items that modify the rate the gauges fill at, such as half rate, 2x rate, etc.
Would just like to know if this seems like it would work out if implemented properly, or if it sounds like it would make battles too difficult, a chore, tedious, etc. before I actually start putting it into action here.
So far what I have is using the attack command or physical skills will cause the exhaustion gauge to rise. Once the gauge tops out, every time you use the attack command or physical skill after that, there's a chance the character will be inflicted with Exhaustion, which halves attack and speed stats. (Or maybe just attack)
The gauge will decrease every time any command other than attack or skills are used, and if the gauge is not at 100%, then every turn after that there's a chance Exhaustion will disappear if the character is afflicted.
For magic, similarly the magic gauge will rise every time spells are used, and decrease when any other type of command is used. If the gauge tops out then every turn after that a spell is used there is a chance the character will be afflicted with magic poisoning, which halves magic power and inflicts damage similar to poison. This one will not disappear without being cured via spell or item.
Weak skills/spells will cause the gauges to rise slowly, stronger skills/spells or those that target all enemies or the whole party will increase it more. I thought this might be a good way to add some strategy to battles and prevent the strongest skills and spells from being spammed over and over, but what I don't want is for it to become too tedious. There will be spells/skills/items that modify the rate the gauges fill at, such as half rate, 2x rate, etc.
Would just like to know if this seems like it would work out if implemented properly, or if it sounds like it would make battles too difficult, a chore, tedious, etc. before I actually start putting it into action here.
Gredge109
4151
I always enjoy reading when people want to improve their battle systems, since that's usually my focus. I don't always get it right, and sometimes my systems will have some big-time flaws, but it's always a good effort to try something different. With the information I've been given about this system, however, it does sound tedious to me. Here's my take on this issue.
1. Attack
By adding an exhaustion meter for the attack command, you're punishing the player and teaching them to avoid it. In other words, you're telling the player "there's no real benefit in using attack, so don't use it". Makes sense, but that asks the question, why is attack so powerful, and what would cause it to be spammed more-often-than-not? It sounds like the issue lies in the balancing of the attack command, and its intended utility in battle.
I'm all for the idea of pushing things towards a skill emphasis, but it sounds as though the player is being punished for using a basic combat option. Some people even go to the extent of removing the attack command all together; but then, something else will replace it as the "low budget option", so attack never truly gets replaced. Even worse, you can have a scenario where the player rotates between "attack, low budget skill, attack, low budget skill," back and forth into monotony, trying to balance them out, which is far less convenient than if they just had a skill that dealt some plain old fashion damage with no strings attached.
What the attack command should be, is a low effort way to deal damage, since the main focus of every RPG fight is to kill the enemy. In the example you presented, it almost sounds as though attack is so powerful that it's worth limiting. Rather, attack would be better designed to deal some no-cost damage, perhaps its main function being used to finish off enemies, and sometimes even being resisted by enemies that are resilient to physical attacks.
2. A few other options for attack.
Quite honestly, I love the attack command, because of how you can play around with it. You can have an enemy resilient to physical attacks, but maybe ice magic weakens the enemy's physical defense, a physical attack shatters the ice, and that opens up the enemy to be vulnerable to other powerful skills.
If you want to keep the exhaustion idea for the attack command, there should be a positive effect to using attack. Maybe as the player keeps attacking, their damage goes up and up, but they have to balance this before they reach exhaustion. Perhaps upon reaching exhaustion, their last physical attack does some tremendous damage and debuffs the enemy, allowing the other allies to follow up. That way the player will have to choose whether to use attack, to save it for a more opportune time, or intentionally exhaust a character simply for the damage and debuff so their allies can start dishing out some damage. This would even allow you to add items that increase the rate at which the exhaustion gauge goes up. The players could even stack their attack commands together to release a huge amount of physical burst damage on a weakened enemy. This way instead of the exhaustion system being "that dreaded gauge you don't want to fill up," it instead will be an issue of, "okay, now how do I play with the exhaustion gauge in this battle?"
3. Magic
As for the magic idea, that honestly sounds like a reverse MP gauge, but with poison at MP 0. You do have the regen option upon using another skill, so that does keep it in balance. However, I feel you may end up with, like I mentioned in an earlier paragraph, the one-two rotation of "attack, magic, attack, magic", which is not exactly adding strategy to the fight, but rather adding monotony. A lot of the same principles mentioned in my earlier paragraphs, apply here.
4. Enemies
All of this seems to be done outside of enemy considerations, which makes me wonder how much the enemies will mix things up. That's why I mentioned the examples earlier regarding attacks: the way the enemies fight will shape how the players handle them, whether they're being proactive or reactive, and should affect their strategy. If there's one overpowering ability the player has which instantly wins them battles, then the enemies aren't designed well enough to avoid it. Of course, you can always go the route of mitigation: perhaps the attacks are free for the players to use, and deal good damage, but if they fail to mitigate the enemy's attacks by using their skills, then they'll get steamrolled. This is an example seen in RPGs from the golden era: the character's attacks will (usually) always stay powerful against a boss, but they're going to get their face beat in if there's no healing, mitigation, debuffs, or other skill-based strategy involved in the fight.
5. Items
Items and item placement will be one of the biggest issues if you go with the original idea of attack and magic exhaustion systems. The difficulty of your game will stem from how often the restorative items are found, how much they cost, how powerful they are, etc. It would be miserable in a dungeon to go up against a large group of enemies, exhaust my magic caster and poison them, and not be able to find an item to cure them without having to exit and rest at an inn.
Anyways, that's my two cents. I could be wrong, who knows, but I hope it offered some ideas for consideration.
1. Attack
By adding an exhaustion meter for the attack command, you're punishing the player and teaching them to avoid it. In other words, you're telling the player "there's no real benefit in using attack, so don't use it". Makes sense, but that asks the question, why is attack so powerful, and what would cause it to be spammed more-often-than-not? It sounds like the issue lies in the balancing of the attack command, and its intended utility in battle.
I'm all for the idea of pushing things towards a skill emphasis, but it sounds as though the player is being punished for using a basic combat option. Some people even go to the extent of removing the attack command all together; but then, something else will replace it as the "low budget option", so attack never truly gets replaced. Even worse, you can have a scenario where the player rotates between "attack, low budget skill, attack, low budget skill," back and forth into monotony, trying to balance them out, which is far less convenient than if they just had a skill that dealt some plain old fashion damage with no strings attached.
What the attack command should be, is a low effort way to deal damage, since the main focus of every RPG fight is to kill the enemy. In the example you presented, it almost sounds as though attack is so powerful that it's worth limiting. Rather, attack would be better designed to deal some no-cost damage, perhaps its main function being used to finish off enemies, and sometimes even being resisted by enemies that are resilient to physical attacks.
2. A few other options for attack.
Quite honestly, I love the attack command, because of how you can play around with it. You can have an enemy resilient to physical attacks, but maybe ice magic weakens the enemy's physical defense, a physical attack shatters the ice, and that opens up the enemy to be vulnerable to other powerful skills.
If you want to keep the exhaustion idea for the attack command, there should be a positive effect to using attack. Maybe as the player keeps attacking, their damage goes up and up, but they have to balance this before they reach exhaustion. Perhaps upon reaching exhaustion, their last physical attack does some tremendous damage and debuffs the enemy, allowing the other allies to follow up. That way the player will have to choose whether to use attack, to save it for a more opportune time, or intentionally exhaust a character simply for the damage and debuff so their allies can start dishing out some damage. This would even allow you to add items that increase the rate at which the exhaustion gauge goes up. The players could even stack their attack commands together to release a huge amount of physical burst damage on a weakened enemy. This way instead of the exhaustion system being "that dreaded gauge you don't want to fill up," it instead will be an issue of, "okay, now how do I play with the exhaustion gauge in this battle?"
3. Magic
As for the magic idea, that honestly sounds like a reverse MP gauge, but with poison at MP 0. You do have the regen option upon using another skill, so that does keep it in balance. However, I feel you may end up with, like I mentioned in an earlier paragraph, the one-two rotation of "attack, magic, attack, magic", which is not exactly adding strategy to the fight, but rather adding monotony. A lot of the same principles mentioned in my earlier paragraphs, apply here.
4. Enemies
All of this seems to be done outside of enemy considerations, which makes me wonder how much the enemies will mix things up. That's why I mentioned the examples earlier regarding attacks: the way the enemies fight will shape how the players handle them, whether they're being proactive or reactive, and should affect their strategy. If there's one overpowering ability the player has which instantly wins them battles, then the enemies aren't designed well enough to avoid it. Of course, you can always go the route of mitigation: perhaps the attacks are free for the players to use, and deal good damage, but if they fail to mitigate the enemy's attacks by using their skills, then they'll get steamrolled. This is an example seen in RPGs from the golden era: the character's attacks will (usually) always stay powerful against a boss, but they're going to get their face beat in if there's no healing, mitigation, debuffs, or other skill-based strategy involved in the fight.
5. Items
Items and item placement will be one of the biggest issues if you go with the original idea of attack and magic exhaustion systems. The difficulty of your game will stem from how often the restorative items are found, how much they cost, how powerful they are, etc. It would be miserable in a dungeon to go up against a large group of enemies, exhaust my magic caster and poison them, and not be able to find an item to cure them without having to exit and rest at an inn.
Anyways, that's my two cents. I could be wrong, who knows, but I hope it offered some ideas for consideration.
Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate it. I was planning on having items play a big roll, with lots of different options for healing and 'skill scrolls' that would be an alternative to using magic, but not as powerful. I do like your idea of there being a benefit to filling the gauge too, like more criticals or something when it's full, although I'm not sure how I would implement spells or attacks doing more damage with a full gauge
The other option I considered was using some kind of charge system, where using the attack command and magic command filled the gauges and made more powerful skills and techniques available and using skills decreases it. This seems like it would just lead to spamming the attack command over and over though. Maybe that isn't a bad thing?
The other option I considered was using some kind of charge system, where using the attack command and magic command filled the gauges and made more powerful skills and techniques available and using skills decreases it. This seems like it would just lead to spamming the attack command over and over though. Maybe that isn't a bad thing?
BadLuck
2270
author=Gredge109
I'm all for the idea of pushing things towards a skill emphasis, but it sounds as though the player is being punished for using a basic combat option
Is this not the same thing as "punishing" the player for using skills with MP?
It sounds to me like this system is effectively just making basic attacks cost a second type of MP. The only difference being that you get punished for using the ability once you've run out of MP.
Which is actually a really cool idea. I wonder if it would work well with skills. Make it so you can always use your skills, but they start eating away at your HP once you run out of MP or something.
Gredge109
4151
author=BadLuckauthor=Gredge109Is this not the same thing as "punishing" the player for using skills with MP?
I'm all for the idea of pushing things towards a skill emphasis, but it sounds as though the player is being punished for using a basic combat option
Not really, no, that would be a misapplication of the purpose of skills as opposed to basic attacks. MP is a resource that limits the ability of the player to repeatedly use their most powerful abilities. Attack is intended to be the weakest (for the most part) low cost action. The reason I classified the system as originally conceived as punishing, is because there's no real advantage to using this basic attack, but the player is told not to use it anyways. It's "punishing" because the intent of punishment is to teach players not to use something (e.g., a boss immune to physical attacks, a boss that absorbs fire damage), but in the context of the original post, it is arbitrary, and would result in the player going "attack, inexpensive magic, attack, inexpensive magic". Instead of making a tedious system like that, it would be better to question why attack is imbalanced to the point of negating all magic skills, and why all magic skills are deemed unnecessary. Hence my suggestions of making it rewarding to, say, store up energy for a big attack and debuff when exhaustion is reached.
BadLuck
2270
>MP is a resource that limits the ability of the player to repeatedly use their most powerful abilities
Punishing them for over-using MP accomplishes exactly the same thing. A basic attack wouldn't have to be the weakest move in this system. Spells could do things like AoE, confer debuffs, buffs, heals, etc, while basic attacks provide damage.
I'm imagining a high damage enemy that is forcing the player to keep healing, bringing it to the point where the healer is out of MP and has to start digging in to some other resource (like health, or like risking taking on a condition).
You can't say what attacks are "intended" to do. The game dev is who decides what they're intended to do.
Punishing them for over-using MP accomplishes exactly the same thing. A basic attack wouldn't have to be the weakest move in this system. Spells could do things like AoE, confer debuffs, buffs, heals, etc, while basic attacks provide damage.
I'm imagining a high damage enemy that is forcing the player to keep healing, bringing it to the point where the healer is out of MP and has to start digging in to some other resource (like health, or like risking taking on a condition).
You can't say what attacks are "intended" to do. The game dev is who decides what they're intended to do.
Gredge109
4151
author=BadLuck
You can't say what attacks are "intended" to do. The game dev is who decides what they're intended to do.
Yeah I agree with you but I feel you're taking me out of context, since I already covered all this in my original post (section 2, also 4).
Thanks to both of you for your input. I'm torn between trying this system and a different one where you use weaker skills and magic to build a gauge to use stronger ones.
Its a bit simpler in terms of concept, but I like the idea of some of the scenarios like badluck mentioned with the healer with my original idea about exhaustion/magic poisoning. I think I will try to go with the original and hey if it turns out to be too tedious I can change it to the other one.
I am concerned about getting into a situation where you're just forced to alternate between attack and magic, but I'm hoping with decent enemy design I can avoid that. Definitely appreciate any feedback/input though
Its a bit simpler in terms of concept, but I like the idea of some of the scenarios like badluck mentioned with the healer with my original idea about exhaustion/magic poisoning. I think I will try to go with the original and hey if it turns out to be too tedious I can change it to the other one.
I am concerned about getting into a situation where you're just forced to alternate between attack and magic, but I'm hoping with decent enemy design I can avoid that. Definitely appreciate any feedback/input though
LockeZ
I'd really like to get rid of LockeZ. His play style is way too unpredictable. He's always like this too. If he ran a country, he'd just kill and imprison people at random until crime stopped.
5958
I like this system within a certain context. That context is... a game where every character is good at both physical and magical skills, and choosing when to use which ones is important for fighting enemies.
I feel like this system would work extremely well in Chrono Trigger, for example, where every character has both types of skills and can do comparable damage either way, and the different skills are already useful at different times because of the complex targeting options and the moving enemies. However, if added to Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy 6 instead, this system would add nothing to the game, because that extra element of targeting would be absent.
SaGa Frontier and SaGa Frontier 2 both actually used a system like the one you're talking about, except when you ran out of energy you just couldn't use any more skills of that type. If you ran out of physical energy, you switched to magic, and vice-versa. You could also choose to switch party members when you ran out, instead of using different skills. However, the overwhelming majority of the dungeons in both of these games could be completed without running out of energy. So the system primarily existed to discourage/prevent grinding. If you did run out of points for your main category of skills, you could do decent damage with your alternate skills but you would not gain useful stats or experience from doing so - you gained stats based on what you used in battle. Gaining the wrong kind of stats was actually very bad due to how enemies scaled. This created a sort of extreme panic situation where you wanted to get back to using your better skills ASAP - as if running out of MP wasn't bad enough already. But it totally failed at creating any kind of interesting choice between using physical skills vs. magical skills.
To create interesting choices for the player, you don't just need one system, you need multiple systems that interfere with each-other and vie for the player's attention. With the conflict of two systems, the player has to strategically choose which resource or goal is more important at each moment, which creates real decision-making. Do I use my last physical skill and exhaust myself now, or will the enemies be lined up more optimally next turn to hit more of them at once? With just the one system that you're adding by itself, though, there's no tension and no real decision-making, because when one exhaustion meter is nearly full, they can almost always freely switch to the other type of skill without any worry. And when that one fills up, they can effortlessly switch back to the first.
I feel like this system would work extremely well in Chrono Trigger, for example, where every character has both types of skills and can do comparable damage either way, and the different skills are already useful at different times because of the complex targeting options and the moving enemies. However, if added to Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy 6 instead, this system would add nothing to the game, because that extra element of targeting would be absent.
SaGa Frontier and SaGa Frontier 2 both actually used a system like the one you're talking about, except when you ran out of energy you just couldn't use any more skills of that type. If you ran out of physical energy, you switched to magic, and vice-versa. You could also choose to switch party members when you ran out, instead of using different skills. However, the overwhelming majority of the dungeons in both of these games could be completed without running out of energy. So the system primarily existed to discourage/prevent grinding. If you did run out of points for your main category of skills, you could do decent damage with your alternate skills but you would not gain useful stats or experience from doing so - you gained stats based on what you used in battle. Gaining the wrong kind of stats was actually very bad due to how enemies scaled. This created a sort of extreme panic situation where you wanted to get back to using your better skills ASAP - as if running out of MP wasn't bad enough already. But it totally failed at creating any kind of interesting choice between using physical skills vs. magical skills.
To create interesting choices for the player, you don't just need one system, you need multiple systems that interfere with each-other and vie for the player's attention. With the conflict of two systems, the player has to strategically choose which resource or goal is more important at each moment, which creates real decision-making. Do I use my last physical skill and exhaust myself now, or will the enemies be lined up more optimally next turn to hit more of them at once? With just the one system that you're adding by itself, though, there's no tension and no real decision-making, because when one exhaustion meter is nearly full, they can almost always freely switch to the other type of skill without any worry. And when that one fills up, they can effortlessly switch back to the first.
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