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ACTION METER: A GOOD OR BAD THING?
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XBuster
1385
XBuster
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CloseHello everyone, I have a question about something. While playing and testing my project, there was something that bothered me. Certain characters could spam so many attacks(Kiki)that they could get over 100 combos easily. Other characters were so powerful(Bai, I'm looking at you), that they could defeat certain bosses in less than 10 seconds O_O. So would an action bar be the best thing for this game?
In the past, I have noticed that games like Popful Mail used something similar and of course the famous ATB system of Final Fantasy titles use it in nearly every entry after 3.Lately, I have been playing games such as Tales of Zesteria and Final Fantasy 13: Lightning Returns and in those games, they have action bars that deplete as you do certain actions to prevent infinite attacks on your foes.
However, in this version, the Action Meter regenerates as you are doing certain actions. Not all actions will use this bar, but attacks that should require a regeneration period use it. For example, Lydia now has the ability to charge her magic spells into stronger spells similar to how Mega Man X is able to charge his obtained weapons. These attacks are strong, but will take up about 50AP(Action Points). And for Kiki(Gun based character), she can spam her base bullets like no tomorrow, but it will cost 10AP per shot which will act as a sort of reload for her.
An example of this is below
But, while the bar charges at a steady rate that is fair, there are are ways to increase the parameters of it such as speed and points. The default AP value is a solid 100, while the speed starts at 1/2 a point per step. 30 steps are in a second, so you would gain 15AP per second.
If you look below, you can see a couple of skills available in the game that will boost the bar itself.
The thing is, there is both an Action meter and a MP bar. Certain skills use MP, others will use the Action Meter, and some will use both. This increases the strategy of which characters to pick because each one uses the bar in a different way. What do you guys think of this concept?
In the past, I have noticed that games like Popful Mail used something similar and of course the famous ATB system of Final Fantasy titles use it in nearly every entry after 3.Lately, I have been playing games such as Tales of Zesteria and Final Fantasy 13: Lightning Returns and in those games, they have action bars that deplete as you do certain actions to prevent infinite attacks on your foes.
However, in this version, the Action Meter regenerates as you are doing certain actions. Not all actions will use this bar, but attacks that should require a regeneration period use it. For example, Lydia now has the ability to charge her magic spells into stronger spells similar to how Mega Man X is able to charge his obtained weapons. These attacks are strong, but will take up about 50AP(Action Points). And for Kiki(Gun based character), she can spam her base bullets like no tomorrow, but it will cost 10AP per shot which will act as a sort of reload for her.
An example of this is below
But, while the bar charges at a steady rate that is fair, there are are ways to increase the parameters of it such as speed and points. The default AP value is a solid 100, while the speed starts at 1/2 a point per step. 30 steps are in a second, so you would gain 15AP per second.
If you look below, you can see a couple of skills available in the game that will boost the bar itself.
The thing is, there is both an Action meter and a MP bar. Certain skills use MP, others will use the Action Meter, and some will use both. This increases the strategy of which characters to pick because each one uses the bar in a different way. What do you guys think of this concept?
TheNecromancer
3160
I would rather have cooldowns than action meters/points. With cooldowns I can cycle my moves so that I'm always doing some move, just not spamming the most powerful one. If you run out of action points, then you can't do anything at all until you have more points. Usually that means 2 things. You slow down your overall rate of attack to maintain action levels, or you burn through the meter and then have a very slow pace of attack while it fills. Either one kinda sucks to me.
I would say if it's possible to do cooldowns, try both methods. Cooldowns and action points. Not at the same time, do each one to test how it plays. Of course you could do both methods, some moves have cooldown others use points.
Otherwise you'd have to just add action points and balance the game accordingly. Seems like you don't have a choice. Unless you found a way for bosses to break those combos, like invincibility frames or some kind of combo breaker that pushes the player away or something.
I would say if it's possible to do cooldowns, try both methods. Cooldowns and action points. Not at the same time, do each one to test how it plays. Of course you could do both methods, some moves have cooldown others use points.
Otherwise you'd have to just add action points and balance the game accordingly. Seems like you don't have a choice. Unless you found a way for bosses to break those combos, like invincibility frames or some kind of combo breaker that pushes the player away or something.
turkeyDawg
195
The two-bar system sounds a lot like Odin Sphere Leifthrasir's MP and POW-Gauge system. Basically, MP for spells, POW-Gauge for weapon skills. Of course, the lenient timing of the combo system in conjunction with some of the POW-recovery upgrades (and also attack potions) means that 100, 200, or even 300 hit combos aren't hard to achieve (apparently it stops counting at 999), so...
Infinite basic attacks + MP gauge(s) for specials is fine enough to me - certainly preferable to enemies just randomly Bursting or otherwise nope-ing you mid-combo. I think there are better ways of preventing ridiculous combos and other cheese, namely through either designing boss attacks and AI to make staying in their face difficult, and/or looking at how fighting games (esp. Guilty Gear) manage combos, but that's certainly way more difficult to implement than gauges.
Though I will say that, given what the default AP recovery rate sounds like, the gun girl might be annoying to play without upgrades. In Odin Sphere, the projectile character (Mercedes) had a mechanic where standing still activated a second-long "reload" animation that refilled the POW Gauge (which was her shot ammo) completely, so, maybe do something like that for her? Just... don't do like the original Odin Sphere where she was completely locked into that animation...
Infinite basic attacks + MP gauge(s) for specials is fine enough to me - certainly preferable to enemies just randomly Bursting or otherwise nope-ing you mid-combo. I think there are better ways of preventing ridiculous combos and other cheese, namely through either designing boss attacks and AI to make staying in their face difficult, and/or looking at how fighting games (esp. Guilty Gear) manage combos, but that's certainly way more difficult to implement than gauges.
Though I will say that, given what the default AP recovery rate sounds like, the gun girl might be annoying to play without upgrades. In Odin Sphere, the projectile character (Mercedes) had a mechanic where standing still activated a second-long "reload" animation that refilled the POW Gauge (which was her shot ammo) completely, so, maybe do something like that for her? Just... don't do like the original Odin Sphere where she was completely locked into that animation...
XBuster
1385
author=Link_2112
I would rather have cooldowns than action meters/points. With cooldowns I can cycle my moves so that I'm always doing some move, just not spamming the most powerful one. If you run out of action points, then you can't do anything at all until you have more points. Usually that means 2 things. You slow down your overall rate of attack to maintain action levels, or you burn through the meter and then have a very slow pace of attack while it fills. Either one kinda sucks to me.
I would say if it's possible to do cooldowns, try both methods. Cooldowns and action points. Not at the same time, do each one to test how it plays. Of course you could do both methods, some moves have cooldown others use points.
Otherwise you'd have to just add action points and balance the game accordingly. Seems like you don't have a choice. Unless you found a way for bosses to break those combos, like invincibility frames or some kind of combo breaker that pushes the player away or something.
I like that idea. It reminds me of Kingdom Hearts 2's cooldown meter that would wait a while then reappear full. There actually is a method to break combos. When you are damaged, combos stop instantly, but with a certain skill, that will not happen. Also, some bosses have blocking animations that will stop all forms of attacks from working on it. The best example I have is the King Crab Boss that blocks your attacks after it gets done shooting water bubbles. The boss is only vulnerable if its moving or shooting.
Some weaker attacks use the meter as well such as Kiki's base gun. Her base gun acts like a standard Mega Man Buster, but it has a recharge rate to prevent infinites. The shot also has a shot distance and slows down underwater until its speed is 0. By the end of the game, your AP should be above or equal to 200. There are several ways to boost the meter besides the skill sets as well. For example, equipping the dash boots will increase your AP speed by a bit. Since the AP speed starts at .5, it doesn't refill too fast, but with the necessary upgrades, you could almost keep the bar full.
@turkeyDawg
Well said! As I mentioned in the reply to Link_2112, there is a mechanic in boss fights and regular enemies that will allow them to completely block any attack. The Crab boss for example puts his claw over his eye. However, a boss's guard can be broken by stunning them. There are also icons that will show up near a bosses healthbar to let you know what kinds of actions are possible such as..
- If the boss can be passed without taking damage
- If the boss is blocking
- If you can jump on the boss
- If the boss is stunned
- If the boss is weak against weapons or magic
I will go deep into the battle system soon. Also, I may consider reducing the cost of the shot with the gun character. Right now it costs 10AP per shot, perhaps an 8 or 5 would be better. Another possibility is to put the less AP cost in certain weapons/equipment.
RyaReisender
200
Well, usually I'd say yes to active meters, but you seem to be going for a Wonder Boy style game (I really liked that series) and I think such a game would strongly suffer from the concept of a meter.
Wonder Boy solves the issue of multi-hitting by making the enemies getting pushed out of range when hit.
If your game just looks like Wonder Boy but doesn't play like it at all, I guess it could work. A good example of uncommon usage of ATB which worked out real well would be Parasite Eve 1. You wouldn't expect an ATB system in a horror game but in PE it really worked out well, but it made you concentrate on dodging attacks most of the time.
Wonder Boy solves the issue of multi-hitting by making the enemies getting pushed out of range when hit.
If your game just looks like Wonder Boy but doesn't play like it at all, I guess it could work. A good example of uncommon usage of ATB which worked out real well would be Parasite Eve 1. You wouldn't expect an ATB system in a horror game but in PE it really worked out well, but it made you concentrate on dodging attacks most of the time.
XBuster
1385
author=RyaReisender
Well, usually I'd say yes to active meters, but you seem to be going for a Wonder Boy style game (I really liked that series) and I think such a game would strongly suffer from the concept of a meter.
Wonder Boy solves the issue of multi-hitting by making the enemies getting pushed out of range when hit.
If your game just looks like Wonder Boy but doesn't play like it at all, I guess it could work. A good example of uncommon usage of ATB which worked out real well would be Parasite Eve 1. You wouldn't expect an ATB system in a horror game but in PE it really worked out well, but it made you concentrate on dodging attacks most of the time.
Really good observation! You are indeed correct, when a monster was hit in those games(Specifically Wonder Boy in Monster World)they, would slide in the opposite direction when they were grounded. This is very much a wonderboy game as it is a 30th anniversary tribute to the franchise as a whole.
From the yellow-haired boy with his girlfriend; Tanya, to Rapadagna in Monster World 4. As for the bar, it only works with certain abilities that have too high of an attack rate or power. Think of reloading a gun or shooting a charge shot. Some attacks that require a certain amount of cool down to prevent a challenge-deprived game. Don't worry, only certain characters use it due to every character having their own abilities and play styles.
I heavily encourage hitting an enemy multiple times, because the combo system will reward you on that. Though, I specifically made the bar because each boss has a stun meter. When you hit a boss a certain amount of times, they will be stunned for a brief period. This is your chance to do some real damage. However, for some characters, their attack rates were so high, you could stun the boss a few seconds more after they recovered from it. I plan on doing an in-depth blog on the battle system soon.
For example, normal attacks will not use the action meter, but a charged magic spell will. I am truly glad to hear you like the series. If you are unaware, 3 New Wonderboy games are being released for the 30th anniversary. I spoke to the creator of the franchise and he told me, "if you enjoy wonderboy, then I am happy". I feel the same:)
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