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RISKS, REWARDS, RNG: OPINIONS NEEDED!
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Xenomic
1752
Xenomic
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CloseSo, I wish to discuss something here, and would like to get some opinions on the matter. What is everyone's opinion on the following two things?
*There is an attack that hits very hard (at level 1, does 2000 Mystic-elemental damage to all enemies, at max level roughly 5000) but has 60% accuracy.
*There is a weapon that gives the user 4x Attack, but has -50 Speed and 60% accuracy. Combined with an Auto-Berserk accessory, it can give roughly 3x normal damage, but due to 60% accuracy + accuracy loss from Berserk, hits don't hit as much. Plus it's Dark-elemental, which is the most commonly resisted element.
*Abilities that are completely RNG unless completely prevented. For instance, Deathga or Level 5 Death, which has a chance of just game overing the player if they're unlucky, unless they have outright immunity or high resist to Instant Death.
Do you think that such things should exist in games at all? Or do you think they should be done away with and not used? I know that everyone has their own playstyle, and some would rather something like this not exist, either it being overpowered 90% of the time but useless 10% due to specific circumstances, or because of RNG, or whatever else.
*There is an attack that hits very hard (at level 1, does 2000 Mystic-elemental damage to all enemies, at max level roughly 5000) but has 60% accuracy.
*There is a weapon that gives the user 4x Attack, but has -50 Speed and 60% accuracy. Combined with an Auto-Berserk accessory, it can give roughly 3x normal damage, but due to 60% accuracy + accuracy loss from Berserk, hits don't hit as much. Plus it's Dark-elemental, which is the most commonly resisted element.
*Abilities that are completely RNG unless completely prevented. For instance, Deathga or Level 5 Death, which has a chance of just game overing the player if they're unlucky, unless they have outright immunity or high resist to Instant Death.
Do you think that such things should exist in games at all? Or do you think they should be done away with and not used? I know that everyone has their own playstyle, and some would rather something like this not exist, either it being overpowered 90% of the time but useless 10% due to specific circumstances, or because of RNG, or whatever else.
I generally try to avoid all three of these situations, though I can certainly see people arguing for them, especially in old-school hardcore games.
Generally, however, as a player myself, if a move misses most of the time, I avoid using it. I don't like moves that have a significant chance to waste a character's entire turn. That being said, we have no baseline to compare 2000 Mystic damage against. If a normal attack does 1000 Physical damage, then I'd probably just attack unless the enemy is weak vs Mystic damage. But if a normal attack only does 250 Physical damage, then that's another story.
In either case, however, I still find the move a little unsatisfying personally. If we're gambling with skill success, I always feel like a significant chance of wasting a characters' turn feels less fun than other skill ideas you could use. Having a skill that has a basic function that you can rely on but can also randomly do extra things is a ton more interesting to me than one that just flat-out fails most of the time.
When you say 4x Attack, do you mean 4x damage, or 4x Number of Attacks? The latter could be interesting, as it could offset the poor hit rate by hitting a number of times. If its just damage, then I find that much less interesting. The elemental part really depends on how you use elements. If there are sections of the game with dungeons full of people who resist Dark element, then that sword will be useless there, of course.
I find a lot of RPGs, both professional and indie alike, will have equipment that is super cool at first glance, but actually has a lot of limitations to keep it from being too broken. This is a neat thing to do, but you have to be careful with it, because I've played games where I don't use any loot in chests just because the developer has given it all too many restrictions and down-sides to be worth even using.
Unless you're trying to recreate a hardcore oldschool feeling, anything that can wipe the party in one shot like that feels cheap and insulting. And the Level-based ones can be especially rough if you expect the party's levels to generally be about the same. In that case it means the skill generally does nothing or in rare cases, wipes most or all the characters in the party.
In fact, I generally like to keep enemies from having any sort of Instant Death moves these days, unless there's a clear way of preventing them that's more interesting than "Yeah, you better have all your characters equipped with AntiDeath Rings." But, if there's setup to it, like the enemy first has to put a status effect on you and then can instant-death that character, that's a lot more interesting to me. It gives the player a chance to cure the status effect before the monster instantly slays him/her.
I don't think stuff like this should be outright banned from games, but it should be thought about thoroughly before implementing. Ask questions like "Does this give players interesting choices, or just frustrating limitations?"
Generally, however, as a player myself, if a move misses most of the time, I avoid using it. I don't like moves that have a significant chance to waste a character's entire turn. That being said, we have no baseline to compare 2000 Mystic damage against. If a normal attack does 1000 Physical damage, then I'd probably just attack unless the enemy is weak vs Mystic damage. But if a normal attack only does 250 Physical damage, then that's another story.
In either case, however, I still find the move a little unsatisfying personally. If we're gambling with skill success, I always feel like a significant chance of wasting a characters' turn feels less fun than other skill ideas you could use. Having a skill that has a basic function that you can rely on but can also randomly do extra things is a ton more interesting to me than one that just flat-out fails most of the time.
author=Xenomic
*There is a weapon that gives the user 4x Attack, but has -50 Speed and 60% accuracy. Combined with an Auto-Berserk accessory, it can give roughly 3x normal damage, but due to 60% accuracy + accuracy loss from Berserk, hits don't hit as much. Plus it's Dark-elemental, which is the most commonly resisted element.
When you say 4x Attack, do you mean 4x damage, or 4x Number of Attacks? The latter could be interesting, as it could offset the poor hit rate by hitting a number of times. If its just damage, then I find that much less interesting. The elemental part really depends on how you use elements. If there are sections of the game with dungeons full of people who resist Dark element, then that sword will be useless there, of course.
I find a lot of RPGs, both professional and indie alike, will have equipment that is super cool at first glance, but actually has a lot of limitations to keep it from being too broken. This is a neat thing to do, but you have to be careful with it, because I've played games where I don't use any loot in chests just because the developer has given it all too many restrictions and down-sides to be worth even using.
author=Xenomic
*Abilities that are completely RNG unless completely prevented. For instance, Deathga or Level 5 Death, which has a chance of just game overing the player if they're unlucky, unless they have outright immunity or high resist to Instant Death.
Unless you're trying to recreate a hardcore oldschool feeling, anything that can wipe the party in one shot like that feels cheap and insulting. And the Level-based ones can be especially rough if you expect the party's levels to generally be about the same. In that case it means the skill generally does nothing or in rare cases, wipes most or all the characters in the party.
In fact, I generally like to keep enemies from having any sort of Instant Death moves these days, unless there's a clear way of preventing them that's more interesting than "Yeah, you better have all your characters equipped with AntiDeath Rings." But, if there's setup to it, like the enemy first has to put a status effect on you and then can instant-death that character, that's a lot more interesting to me. It gives the player a chance to cure the status effect before the monster instantly slays him/her.
I don't think stuff like this should be outright banned from games, but it should be thought about thoroughly before implementing. Ask questions like "Does this give players interesting choices, or just frustrating limitations?"
Xenomic
1752
*For the 2000 Mystic-elemental damage, some things to consider I guess:
*The other options for the same character is a 100% accuracy Mystic-elemental attack that deals 1500 to one enemy, but costs 20% Max MP each use, and a 1000 Earth-elemental attack to one enemy that has 80% accuracy. They only really have 4 attack options (the last comes with Dual Spark, but is a palty 400 Poison-elemental single-target attack). Other characters can hit for roughly 1000-1400 around that point in the game with their own skills, regular attacks generally never hit that hard.
*It lets the user attack 4 times in a row with that weapon (just with that weapon alone, they still have any additional attacks with the weapon in their other hand, which is generally just one more attack). The Dark element is pretty common in most areas of the game, and it's not uncommon to find enemies resistant, immune, or absorbing the element. And in some dungeons, there's enemies heavily resistant to or immune to physical damage, which hurts it more. But against anything that isn't Dark/Physical resistant, it's a really powerful tool. Although personally myself, I'd never use it just because I prefer accuracy with my physicals, and I prefer control over my character so I don't use the Auto-Berserk accessory. I know there are people that DOES use this combo though, so yeah!.
*For things like Instant Death, there are ways to actually deal with it. For example, there is an accessory that shows up around the time there's a boss that LOVES instant death that prevents Instant Death and Doom outright. And before that, there's a character that can grant a 30-turn Instant Death/Doom immunity to the party, and there's probably other methods of dealing with it that I'm not thinking of right now. Granted, this does mean you have to dedicate your accessory slot to the Mortal Soul (the accessory in question) or bring the character (who's not a bad character), and requires knowing where these abilities are used, but I made the game with knowing that the player may die a few times, but will be able to learn what to do and be able to blaze through it the next time. Of course, that doesn't stop a certain boss that inflicts Doom on any revived characters (one of the few things that bypasses immunities).
*The other options for the same character is a 100% accuracy Mystic-elemental attack that deals 1500 to one enemy, but costs 20% Max MP each use, and a 1000 Earth-elemental attack to one enemy that has 80% accuracy. They only really have 4 attack options (the last comes with Dual Spark, but is a palty 400 Poison-elemental single-target attack). Other characters can hit for roughly 1000-1400 around that point in the game with their own skills, regular attacks generally never hit that hard.
*It lets the user attack 4 times in a row with that weapon (just with that weapon alone, they still have any additional attacks with the weapon in their other hand, which is generally just one more attack). The Dark element is pretty common in most areas of the game, and it's not uncommon to find enemies resistant, immune, or absorbing the element. And in some dungeons, there's enemies heavily resistant to or immune to physical damage, which hurts it more. But against anything that isn't Dark/Physical resistant, it's a really powerful tool. Although personally myself, I'd never use it just because I prefer accuracy with my physicals, and I prefer control over my character so I don't use the Auto-Berserk accessory. I know there are people that DOES use this combo though, so yeah!.
*For things like Instant Death, there are ways to actually deal with it. For example, there is an accessory that shows up around the time there's a boss that LOVES instant death that prevents Instant Death and Doom outright. And before that, there's a character that can grant a 30-turn Instant Death/Doom immunity to the party, and there's probably other methods of dealing with it that I'm not thinking of right now. Granted, this does mean you have to dedicate your accessory slot to the Mortal Soul (the accessory in question) or bring the character (who's not a bad character), and requires knowing where these abilities are used, but I made the game with knowing that the player may die a few times, but will be able to learn what to do and be able to blaze through it the next time. Of course, that doesn't stop a certain boss that inflicts Doom on any revived characters (one of the few things that bypasses immunities).
bicfarmer
3601
author=Xenomic
*There is an attack that hits very hard (at level 1, does 2000 Mystic-elemental damage to all enemies, at max level roughly 5000) but has 60% accuracy.
Encourages save scumming on bosses. Bad idea. If I play regularly though I wouldn't use it, 60% is unreliable.
author=Xenomic
*There is a weapon that gives the user 4x Attack, but has -50 Speed and 60% accuracy. Combined with an Auto-Berserk accessory, it can give roughly 3x normal damage, but due to 60% accuracy + accuracy loss from Berserk, hits don't hit as much. Plus it's Dark-elemental, which is the most commonly resisted element.
Same as above.
author=Xenomic
*Abilities that are completely RNG unless completely prevented. For instance, Deathga or Level 5 Death, which has a chance of just game overing the player if they're unlucky, unless they have outright immunity or high resist to Instant Death.
Unfair and highly discouraged. Might be possible if there are huge warnings to the player beforehand and immunity equipement is available, but I don't think its a good idea even with all that.
Xenomic
1752
On bosses, there's almost no reason to use that move since there's usually not more than 2 enemies in the fight (and in the case of some bosses, it's a bad idea to try to attack both at once anyways). In that situation, the single-target moves WOULD be used more (as mentioned above with the reply to Unity on that same character).
bicfarmer
3601
my opinion, but would it be possible to use something other than accuracy to balance stuff? missing is a universally annoying thing to happen in rpg's
visitorsfromdreams
3530
Id take these ideas, put them in a small test area with 2 - 3 different enemies that will be affected differently by these ideas and then send that out to people for testing to see if people find it "fun" or frustrating. Most of the ideas in my current project were tested in isolation before being put into the core game. Its a good way of testing ideas without committing to any of them.
Xenomic
1752
@bicfarmer: I do get annoyed at missing a lot too, even in my own game, but I wouldn't know how else to balance things with some abilities like said Mystic-attack (Dual Spark being the name of it). In addition to its 60% accuracy, it also costs 80% Max MP, according to my Skills document (assuming it's fully updated). 2K3 is kinda limited in that manner honestly.
@visitorsfromdreams: I've done that before with abilities and equipment updates by having people test them in the debug room (it's also how I got bosses tested quickly). The ones that have playtested it the most don't seem bothered at all by the accuracy nor RNG related things, or even some boss gimmicks (such as a boss that has Return Damage: 100% to the party as its passive, and its other abilities being all Gravity-based stuff bar a physical attack).
@visitorsfromdreams: I've done that before with abilities and equipment updates by having people test them in the debug room (it's also how I got bosses tested quickly). The ones that have playtested it the most don't seem bothered at all by the accuracy nor RNG related things, or even some boss gimmicks (such as a boss that has Return Damage: 100% to the party as its passive, and its other abilities being all Gravity-based stuff bar a physical attack).
visitorsfromdreams
3530
If the issue is balancing could you possibly find other ways of stopping people exploiting the attack with things like cool downs or rather than making it use a tonne of MP have it require the use of a limited resource like an item that's expensive to buy or rare in the environment? Im not super familiar with 2K3 so im not entirely sure what its limitations are but both of those ideas sound less frustrating to me as a gameplay concept than low accuracy.
Xenomic
1752
That may require having to make the ability be a switch skill, which isn't kind to doing things the way I'd like sadly. ^^;
author=Xenomic
*For the 2000 Mystic-elemental damage, some things to consider I guess:
*The other options for the same character is a 100% accuracy Mystic-elemental attack that deals 1500 to one enemy, but costs 20% Max MP each use, and a 1000 Earth-elemental attack to one enemy that has 80% accuracy. They only really have 4 attack options (the last comes with Dual Spark, but is a palty 400 Poison-elemental single-target attack). Other characters can hit for roughly 1000-1400 around that point in the game with their own skills, regular attacks generally never hit that hard.
I still find skills with a significant chance of just missing to be boring and frustrating, personally, and as a player I'd likely avoid using the skill.
author=Xenomic
*It lets the user attack 4 times in a row with that weapon (just with that weapon alone, they still have any additional attacks with the weapon in their other hand, which is generally just one more attack). The Dark element is pretty common in most areas of the game, and it's not uncommon to find enemies resistant, immune, or absorbing the element. And in some dungeons, there's enemies heavily resistant to or immune to physical damage, which hurts it more. But against anything that isn't Dark/Physical resistant, it's a really powerful tool. Although personally myself, I'd never use it just because I prefer accuracy with my physicals, and I prefer control over my character so I don't use the Auto-Berserk accessory. I know there are people that DOES use this combo though, so yeah!.
I could see it being possibly useful enough, so yeah, that works. If you use the Auto-Berserk accessory and there are enemies that absorb the element, it could be pretty annoying though.
author=Xenomic
*For things like Instant Death, there are ways to actually deal with it. For example, there is an accessory that shows up around the time there's a boss that LOVES instant death that prevents Instant Death and Doom outright. And before that, there's a character that can grant a 30-turn Instant Death/Doom immunity to the party, and there's probably other methods of dealing with it that I'm not thinking of right now. Granted, this does mean you have to dedicate your accessory slot to the Mortal Soul (the accessory in question) or bring the character (who's not a bad character), and requires knowing where these abilities are used, but I made the game with knowing that the player may die a few times, but will be able to learn what to do and be able to blaze through it the next time. Of course, that doesn't stop a certain boss that inflicts Doom on any revived characters (one of the few things that bypasses immunities).
I find the situation of "well, you pretty much have to die the first time so you can come back and blaze though it next time" to also be pretty boring. Being able to adapt on the fly and pull off a victory is a lot more satisfying than dying and having to redo it with the knowledge of how to win. And if we're talking instant-death, even more so. Again, unless this is aimed at fans of oldschool RPGs who like the unbalanced challenge, I would highly discourage this.
Xenomic
1752
If I had a better way of handling it, I would. That's a big reason why my game has literally 600 statuses, because I gave 10 levels of status to one player skill (+5 turn duration most of the time each level) to avoid doing accuracy stuff with them (they're always set to 100% accuracy for the skill, so it leaves it up to the target's resistances).
Aye, which is really a gamble on the player's part there. Give a big attack boost and double speed? Or run into the problem of that character being the only one left alive and unable to kill boss?
I mean, to be fair it's very possible to not even die at all and still make it through areas even with those things happening. It's MOSTLY aimed at bosses, but some random encounters might be tricky too (usually the Notorious Monsters, which are the rare enemies, or SUPPOSED to be, but sometimes the game is a jerk and give players that enemy like three times in a row. I've seen this on stream before and was like wtf). In some cases, I TRY to theme areas (for example, everything in the Winter Forest is Ice-elemental and is weak to Fire, but can have things to get around Ice resistance. Not that often, but it can happen), but it's not always the case.
Aye, which is really a gamble on the player's part there. Give a big attack boost and double speed? Or run into the problem of that character being the only one left alive and unable to kill boss?
I mean, to be fair it's very possible to not even die at all and still make it through areas even with those things happening. It's MOSTLY aimed at bosses, but some random encounters might be tricky too (usually the Notorious Monsters, which are the rare enemies, or SUPPOSED to be, but sometimes the game is a jerk and give players that enemy like three times in a row. I've seen this on stream before and was like wtf). In some cases, I TRY to theme areas (for example, everything in the Winter Forest is Ice-elemental and is weak to Fire, but can have things to get around Ice resistance. Not that often, but it can happen), but it's not always the case.
Sooz
They told me I was mad when I said I was going to create a spidertable. Who’s laughing now!!!
5354
Xenomic why do you hate your players?
Milennin
2060
Missing a skill is the worst thing possible, losing a turn, and losing the MP using it. Maybe if it did at least refund the MP if it misses, it might be okay...
Xenomic
1752
What kind of RPG does that??? Never heard of any that would do such a thing. o_O
EDIT - On the topic of things like Instant Death, I personally have no problems with it in most games, since there's generally ways of dealing with it and it's not TOO commonplace. Exceptions being Final Fantasy XII, especially in later portions of the game, where you cannot do anything about Instant Death at all and are at the mercy of RNG completely, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest where the equipment to stop it is in the final dungeon, and you only have 2 characters the entire game, and it's commonplace for Instant Death/Petrify to happen in later portions of the game, and Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII- where you're only controlling one character (granted, you can equip an accessory that prevents it, though now that's one accessory slot less for other cool things. But I mean...preventing Instant Death in that environment is pretty high priority I guess).
Heck, even with things like accuracy and missing, it doesn't annoy me too much (except in Fire Emblem, where my 95% attacks seem to miss all the time for SOME REASON, and the enemy's 10% attacks hit me ALL THE TIME for some reason...I'm looking at you, Sacred Stones...). There's usually ways to circumvent this from what I've played at least (and even if there isn't, it's usually not that bad since in cases where you can't adjust accuracy, it's just the gimmick of the enemy (see: specific Chrono Trigger enemies) or happens rarely), such as abilities or equipment to increase accuracy.
EDIT - On the topic of things like Instant Death, I personally have no problems with it in most games, since there's generally ways of dealing with it and it's not TOO commonplace. Exceptions being Final Fantasy XII, especially in later portions of the game, where you cannot do anything about Instant Death at all and are at the mercy of RNG completely, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest where the equipment to stop it is in the final dungeon, and you only have 2 characters the entire game, and it's commonplace for Instant Death/Petrify to happen in later portions of the game, and Crisis Core -Final Fantasy VII- where you're only controlling one character (granted, you can equip an accessory that prevents it, though now that's one accessory slot less for other cool things. But I mean...preventing Instant Death in that environment is pretty high priority I guess).
Heck, even with things like accuracy and missing, it doesn't annoy me too much (except in Fire Emblem, where my 95% attacks seem to miss all the time for SOME REASON, and the enemy's 10% attacks hit me ALL THE TIME for some reason...I'm looking at you, Sacred Stones...). There's usually ways to circumvent this from what I've played at least (and even if there isn't, it's usually not that bad since in cases where you can't adjust accuracy, it's just the gimmick of the enemy (see: specific Chrono Trigger enemies) or happens rarely), such as abilities or equipment to increase accuracy.
Milennin
2060
author=Xenomic
What kind of RPG does that??? Never heard of any that would do such a thing. o_O
Then go for something unique, rather than just copy/pasting what has already been done to death in other games.
Xenomic
1752
I mean, if it was something like a passive on a piece of equipment or something like that, that would be fine, but giving it to every character in the game, I don't know about that now. Then again, that depends on the game itself, I've seen a couple games where just using defend regains some MP, which is perfectly fine, and I've seen some games where you start the battle with full HP/MP every time (or just full HP, but not full MP).
(There's also the issue, in my case anyways, that I cannot do that because 2K3 cannot do that, if you're referring to that game in particular).
(There's also the issue, in my case anyways, that I cannot do that because 2K3 cannot do that, if you're referring to that game in particular).
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