AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM: I DRANK THE KOOL-AID. DID YOU?

As probably the only conferred historian posting in this thread, all I have to say is this:

Every nation now and forever believes themselves to be exceptional in some way or another. This is part of the nature of nationalism. The case for American Exceptionalim as a kinder/gentler brand of imperial discourse is tenuous at best, and is probably judged by the morals of our time similar to how past empires were judged by the morals of theirs.

author=kentona link=topic=2433.msg43638#msg43638 date=1226674040
I don't want the RMN forums to become a toxic environment.

You've read way too much into one line of text, and you are completely overreacting.

author=Canuck link=topic=2433.msg43647#msg43647 date=1226680567
For the record I've got my BA in Sociology with a focus in social theory, and am fairly well travelled. I'm not an ignorant first year student, nor a bitter Canadian. I'm one who's against what I consider elitist nationalism, and would like to know how people who seem very intelligent and well informed about a wide variety of issues believe that it's a viable way to think, because I can't comprehend it, and would like to understand the way of thinking.

Because being elite is not a bad thing.

Blind nationalism is deadly. Elitism is not.

And this thread is NOT going the same way as the abortion thread went?

Personally, I believe we Americans shouldn't police the world anymore. We should take care of our own a lot better than we are currently doing, and stop worrying so much about what country is likely to attack us at every turn. As unlikely a hope as it is, i'd like to see more of our jobs come back home to us, where we need em'.

We're an awesome country. We can be even better, however. I don't use words like "BEST" or "FLAG" or "PATRIOTIC" because such words lead to mindless arrogant nationalism, which is never constructive.

Ah live here, that don't mean ah'm LOVIN' IT, Max!

It's a livin'. Whaddaya expect, with all our jobs going overseas?

Trust me, the US is still one of the best places to live in the world (provided you have a job, don't live in any of the bad neighborhoods and don't watch anything on TV that might make you wanna keep a loaded gun nearby) I miss my friends and the food the most.

I wouldn't mind parting with the flags-grafted-to-the-insides-of-their-eyelids south, however.

Holb, that's kind of a spooky thought... but more true than I care to admit.

To clarify a few of my previous points, mostly to Canuck...

I don't think the United States has some sort of mystic aura about it that leads me to believe it is special. I don't believe we have a divine right. It is just a mere coincidence that I happened to be born in what is currently the world's only superpower that also happens to be an advanced western democracy. I know America still has some maturing to do socially, but with every passing generation progress is made on that front.

I consider America the "best" country but that does not mean I consider other western-style democracies terrible. In fact, I find countries like Sweden and Switzerland to be superb -- but how important are they outside of their own sphere? America doesn't do anything great, but we do a lot of things well. I know that western Europe and Canada have passed us on things like law, social policy, human rights, etc, but not by much and the basis for their gains all have deep roots to America. Many high profile European judges and lawyers studied here and our own court systems were once well respected, though that image has been battered as we have regressed due to the rise of conservatism over the last forty years. Such a movement would be extremely easy to replicate in other countries as well, as even Canada and Britain are slowly shifting back to the right. Do not take this for granted.

And no, despite kentona's musings, the Conservative Party of Canada is not more liberal than the Democratic Party of the United States. It's a catchy saying, though. Do not confuse thinly veiled ideology with actual policy. About the only difference between the Canadian Conservatives and the American Republicans is that the Canadians do not justify their positions with religious rhetoric (though some do). I suppose that might make a difference to kentona, but the end result is the same.

American higher education is an odd mix; we have a combination of cheap or essentially free (unless your parents are well off or if you are going to an out-of-state location) public colleges and exorbently expensive private colleges. It's hard to understand; some of the top universities here are public yet even they are only a fraction of the cost of some of the worst private universities. Our medical system is a bit of a travesty cost-wise, but almost the entirety of our poor and elderly are covered through the state Medicare/Medicaid/SCHIP programs. The ones that really feel it are the middle class who get practically no state help and rely on their employers. We have a functioning welfare system for poor families and the elderly as well, though I fear there are many young people, mothers in particular, that seem perpetually stuck in it.

As for peacekeeping missions abroad that American was involved with that had no direct benefit for them, I would mention our campaign in Yugoslavia in 1999 to prevent the further genocide of the Albanians by the Serbs. There is also the (small) peacekeeping contingent Reagan sent to Beirut during a civil war in Lebanon that ended in tragedy. It's really hard to cite efforts in which the U.S. would not somehow benefit due to how much we have at stake in the world. Isolationism is impossible for us now, nor should we look to it even if given the chance.

I am pretty sure the raw power of our military has dissuaded more wars than it has started, and we carry that terrible burden so the rest of the western world can sleep relatively easy at night. China is still peaceful for a reason. Though Pax Americana may be waning, it has served as a stabilizing force for sometime.

As for the World War II debate, the war on the eastern front had Germany pressuring Russia for most of the early war effort (though never quite successful). I don't know why you keep using the Battle of Britain as your ace in this -- if Britain was so safe afterwards, America would not have needed to supply them with nearly 30% of their military expenditures over the next several years. Britain military was nearly bankrupt and the threat to them was still very real, and Britain continued to drain resources long after that particular battle ended. Do not confuse Britain's "limit break" with a permanent German defeat in the region. This is kind of irrelevant to the topic, however.

I love my country, despite its flaws. It has nothing to do with it being a superpower (though it certainly doesn't hurt -- I would have hated growing up in Congo). I don't consider it elitism to think that my country is the best (though you may not agree with that, certainly you can understand why I might think it true), because I don't have mean spirits about it. I certainly don't look down on other countries. Well, most of them anyways. I did, however, threaten to move to Canada if Bush was re-elected in 2004. I am glad that was an idle threat since I don't think I could live there for climate reasons. I lived a couple of hours from the border now and it is COLD. But have you never rooted for a home town sports team? It's the same concept, but on a much bigger scale. I will also tell you Iowa is the best state in the United States (harmonic will agree, and everyone else will disagree.) I think your thoughts of nationalism and patriotism are skewed by your ideology. You're a pretty leftist guy. But you don't speak for everyone (nor do I). Why you rate American nationalism with China's and Japan's (read: scary) strikes me as odd, especially when you have countries in the EU that express just as much nationalism, if not more, like France. I know Canada has no shortage of nationalists.

Just ask Blitzen, and he will sing you a song about maple syrup and zippers.

Perhaps the nationalism of pseudo-socialist countries is not quite as terrifying to you as you share that worldview?

Since apparently you have to qualify your posts with some sort of intellectual pedigree, my major is political science with an emphasis in international relations.

Why you rate American nationalism with China's and Japan's (read: scary) strikes me as odd, especially when you have countries in the EU that express just as much nationalism, if not more, like France.

I think you cannot say that. :P I'm not saying that because I'm french (I could be "defending" my country etc. but that's not the point), but because you surely know France by what media show about it. And there is nothing worse than media manipulation. We all here have a deformed vision of other countries.

Well, I've read quickly the topic and I would say that too many people here are taking shortcuts, they have a simply vision of our world. "We helped them..." "We did that" etc. It was not you nor me fighting in these wars. Personnally I'm an anti-nationalist and even, anti-patriotist. We're all human beings (okay okay I know "peace and love" it's old-fashioned); I could have be born (erf I'm sure this sentence is not correct xD) in China, in Africa... It's a chance for us, living in powerful countries, to have the possibility to help people not as lucky as us. And it is a duty too. Just think about universal determinism...

Too bad I don't have the words to express all the things I think about. ><