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AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM: I DRANK THE KOOL-AID. DID YOU?
Posts
LouisCyphre
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Closeauthor=Feldschlacht IV link=topic=2433.msg44686#msg44686 date=1226893293There was one specific instance where I got in a fistfight with some random dude because a flag he was flying had mud and gunk and other nasty shit all over it. There was no clear winner, but the flag was ceremoniously disposed of in proper fashion, so I accomplished something.
Can you elaborate on how you feel?
Asalieri
200
author=secretseeker link=topic=2433.msg44697#msg44697 date=1226894511author=Asalieri link=topic=2433.msg44679#msg44679 date=1226892390Of course, everyone around here is.
I'm guessing Chavez will be happy knowing "Ese tirano de m**rda Bush" will be replaced by the kinder, gentler, more tactful new representative of America.author=Asalieri link=topic=2433.msg44679#msg44679 date=1226892390Yup, sadly that's a constant -.-
Either that, or he'll just keep running his mouth off, as is customary of him.
You guys need to put that man on a leash, almost as urgently as we need to rub Bush's nose into what he did and smack him in the butt with a newspaper.
Actually, I'd like to see Bush brought to trial somehow.
Canuck
0
author=ChaosProductions link=topic=2433.msg44684#msg44684 date=1226893245
I canstand any insults to the country. I get mad and worked up whenever I see a flag flown improperly. Is this good or bad?
This is scary nationalism, for the record.
suzuricho
283
author=Canuck link=topic=2433.msg44817#msg44817 date=1226907546author=ChaosProductions link=topic=2433.msg44684#msg44684 date=1226893245
I canstand any insults to the country. I get mad and worked up whenever I see a flag flown improperly. Is this good or bad?
This is scary nationalism, for the record.
I was raised in a military family. My father would get so offended when he saw a flag flown improperly, it would drive him nuts because he saw this as an insult to anyone that has ever served in the military. I have had front seat tickets to watching men brawl over these types of things, and it's not very pretty.
I think the flag stands for the right to do whatever the hell we'd like to do to it. What's more important, the flag itself or what it stands for?
Of course "what it stands for" is more important. And what it does stand for is so transcendent, the flag should be respected and revered at all times. Apathy, neglect, and ignorance are not excuses, since they're gateways to anti-patriotism.
All this blather about "scary nationalism" is getting out of hand. It's a great thing to really believe in something bigger than yourself, and equating that with the mentality that lead to WW1 is downright slanderous.
All this blather about "scary nationalism" is getting out of hand. It's a great thing to really believe in something bigger than yourself, and equating that with the mentality that lead to WW1 is downright slanderous.
Canuck
0
Getting in a fist fight over a flag is scary and very nationalistic. I can't see how it's not.
The flag should be revered? That's also scary to me. A free country is one where you can be anti-patriotic, no? Shouldn't it be a fundamental right in a free country?
The reason I signaled that out as "scary nationalism" is because someone (Holbert I think) thought I wasn't being clear on what I meant by it, and there was a shining example, so I said "this is what I mean." It's not blather.
The flag should be revered? That's also scary to me. A free country is one where you can be anti-patriotic, no? Shouldn't it be a fundamental right in a free country?
The reason I signaled that out as "scary nationalism" is because someone (Holbert I think) thought I wasn't being clear on what I meant by it, and there was a shining example, so I said "this is what I mean." It's not blather.
The term "free country" gets horribly abused. It doesnt mean "do whatever the F you want." It means we can have these conversations without being taken away by large men in black-tinted cars in the night. It means we can worship God, Allah, Yaweh, or Vishnu if we so please. It doesn't mean we have the right to hate our country. We can hate our politicians, but hating your country...
I do believe a certain degree of alliegance to the country itself is required. That's why public schools have children say the pledge of alliegance every morning, while saluting the flag. Hating this country and enjoying its fruits is awful. (Hi, illegal immigrants.)
We are a nation of immigrants. That's one of the most shining examples of our exceptionalism. We are extremely diverse, and we welcome your tired, your poor, etcetera. But throughout our history, immigrants have assimilated into Americans. You don't have to be a white christian, eat apple pie and watch baseball to be American, but you certainly do have to believe in its transcendent ideals and salute the flag. Otherwise, WHAT do you suggest be our unifying ideal, if not religion or something else?
I do believe a certain degree of alliegance to the country itself is required. That's why public schools have children say the pledge of alliegance every morning, while saluting the flag. Hating this country and enjoying its fruits is awful. (Hi, illegal immigrants.)
We are a nation of immigrants. That's one of the most shining examples of our exceptionalism. We are extremely diverse, and we welcome your tired, your poor, etcetera. But throughout our history, immigrants have assimilated into Americans. You don't have to be a white christian, eat apple pie and watch baseball to be American, but you certainly do have to believe in its transcendent ideals and salute the flag. Otherwise, WHAT do you suggest be our unifying ideal, if not religion or something else?
maladroithim
1495
author=harmonic link=topic=2433.msg44885#msg44885 date=1226934109
It doesn't mean we have the right to hate our country.
It is very important that we have the right to hate our country. What if the country goes through a fundamental change and becomes a terrible place? What if the rest of the world moves on and we don't? You are talking about the founding of our nation - our nation was founded by people who hated their country and were willing to fight a desperate, bloody war to be separate. The US colonies were British territory, so really the US Revolutionary War was a Civil War.
author=harmonic link=topic=2433.msg44885#msg44885 date=1226934109
Otherwise, WHAT do you suggest be our unifying ideal, if not religion or something else?
Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness maybe! If a country is not providing these things for you, your social group, or your ethnicity, then you have every right to hate your country.
author=harmonic link=topic=2433.msg44690#msg44690 date=1226893465
It makes me murderous when I see our flag desecrated by things like the mexican flag being hoisted in the american flag's place in places like south california public schools. In 99% of human history, that would result in people dying.
Are you suggesting that it still should?
I concur with brandonabley. Though I believe America is awesome, I reserve the right to change my mind and be vocally against it. I am still pretty upset about the last eight years, the lack of universal healthcare and our often xenophobic ways.
America isn't a people to me, it's an ideal. I enjoy our diversity and don't really want everyone to "assimilate" into an "American" culture.
America isn't a people to me, it's an ideal. I enjoy our diversity and don't really want everyone to "assimilate" into an "American" culture.
The term "free country" gets horribly abused. It doesnt mean "do whatever the F you want." It means we can have these conversations without being taken away by large men in black-tinted cars in the night. It means we can worship God, Allah, Yaweh, or Vishnu if we so please. It doesn't mean we have the right to hate our country. We can hate our politicians, but hating your country...
I do believe a certain degree of alliegance to the country itself is required. That's why public schools have children say the pledge of alliegance every morning, while saluting the flag. Hating this country and enjoying its fruits is awful. (Hi, illegal immigrants.)
Wow, dude, you have basically missed the point of America. America was built on the principles of guaranteeing not only our natural rights to hate our country but guaranteeing also our natural rights to revolt against and destroy our country if it becomes a tyranny. Quite a bit of the constitution and the declaration are about this point.
Also, I am starting to think that you are secretly a fascist from some of the things you say.
It's not that I don't like America, and I'm also not a fan of illegal immigrants (or anyone or anything who threatens the national language of this country being American English) but still I mean, I agree with canuck this much: This attitude is really scary.
author=Canuck link=topic=2433.msg44882#msg44882 date=1226932487
Getting in a fist fight over a flag is scary and very nationalistic. I can't see how it's not.
The flag should be revered? That's also scary to me. A free country is one where you can be anti-patriotic, no? Shouldn't it be a fundamental right in a free country?
The reason I signaled that out as "scary nationalism" is because someone (Holbert I think) thought I wasn't being clear on what I meant by it, and there was a shining example, so I said "this is what I mean." It's not blather.
This is not exactly a widespread epidemic. I can assure you most Americans don't even know which way the flag is supposed to be hung. There was a store I was working at that had their flag hung one way for eight years before a Vietnam veteran finally came in and asked for them to display it correctly. Whoops. The most "nationalistic" Americans live in the deep south and the flag they are most worried about isn't even the United State's.
I hate to sound like Ody, but I think you have us mistaken for media perception of us abroad (I watch BBC and Al Jazeera so I must be an expert!). Surely you don't think we're some monolithic voting block where one or two guys on the internet represent 300 million citizens.
This anti-American attitude is defined as "resentment" in international relations and is caused in response to other western democracies being tired of the United States being a babysitter. They wanted to be a big boy too! This has been a festering ideal since the fall of the Soviets (since they no longer felt they needed protection) and had pretty well manifested itself after Bush 43's cowboy politics and the invasion of Iraq.
author=Max McGee link=topic=2433.msg44901#msg44901 date=1226947159
Wow, dude, you have basically missed the point of America. America was built on the principles of guaranteeing not only our natural rights to hate our country but guaranteeing also our natural rights to revolt against and destroy our country if it becomes a tyranny. Quite a bit of the constitution and the declaration are about this point.
You might want to explain why General Washington, a founding father if there ever was one, took up arms and forcefully put down a rebellion of unhappy citizens. You're nuts if you think a government -- the United States or any other -- will ever allow its citizens to destroy it. There is no such "natural right".
Brandon, you are completely off the mark. Stop making insane assumptions because you want to elicit a slippery slope questionnaire and reinforce your FUCKING BARBARIAN shit.
When I say hate our country, I mean hate it's ideas. Like Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I said it's okay to hate the politicians if needed, but not the country's transcendent ideals.
"Are you suggesting it should?"
Yes. I'm advocating killing all mexicans. Try again when you want to ask a reasonable question. You should learn how to debate from Canuck. He's amazingly civil about it, even though we totally disagree.
When I say hate our country, I mean hate it's ideas. Like Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I said it's okay to hate the politicians if needed, but not the country's transcendent ideals.
"Are you suggesting it should?"
Yes. I'm advocating killing all mexicans. Try again when you want to ask a reasonable question. You should learn how to debate from Canuck. He's amazingly civil about it, even though we totally disagree.
Harmonic our country explicitly protects our right to hate its ideals if you have a problem with that it is YOU who hates America.
Hey, whoa, whoa! I just said that it is basically IN THE CONSTITUTION not "lol let's destroy America." I also never asserted that the founding fathers or anyone else were going to stick to it. (They weren't too good at sticking to that "all men created equal" bit either. "All men created equal...except women....blacks....gays....jews..." etc.)
You might want to explain why General Washington, a founding father if there ever was one, took up arms and forcefully put down a rebellion of unhappy citizens. You're nuts if you think a government -- the United States or any other -- will ever allow its citizens to destroy it. There is no such "natural right".
Hey, whoa, whoa! I just said that it is basically IN THE CONSTITUTION not "lol let's destroy America." I also never asserted that the founding fathers or anyone else were going to stick to it. (They weren't too good at sticking to that "all men created equal" bit either. "All men created equal...except women....blacks....gays....jews..." etc.)
maladroithim
1495
author=harmonic link=topic=2433.msg44941#msg44941 date=1226951558
Brandon, you are completely off the mark. Stop making insane assumptions because you want to elicit a slippery slope questionnaire and reinforce your FUCKING BARBARIAN shit.
You should learn how to debate from Canuck. He's amazingly civil about it, even though we totally disagree.
I am pretty certain I didn't say anything rude. And I certainly haven't called you a barbarian for at least a week!
author=harmonic link=topic=2433.msg44941#msg44941 date=1226951558
When I say hate our country, I mean hate it's ideas. Like Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I said it's okay to hate the politicians if needed, but not the country's transcendent ideals.
You were not talking about the country's ideals - you were talking about the country and its flag. And regardless of how you said it, you did insinuate that people should be forced to honor those symbols by saying people have usually been imprisoned or put to death for showing their country disrespect. I believe you said it drove you to "murderous rage"? What am I supposed to assume other than that you believe disrespect of the flag or criticism of the nation should be a punishable offense? You only said it is okay to hate politicians - and by extension policy - but you said nothing about cultural values, establishments, majorities, institutions, or the society in general. If you mean something other than what you said, explain and don't get angry just because you don't like me (I had thought you left the nomadic warrior tribes on the steppe specifically because they acted this way).
You also show an alarmingly hostile attitude towards immigrants in general (legal or otherwise). On one hand you say we are a nation of immigrants but on the other you complain about languages, and ethnic and social identities. You are fortunate enough to be born as part of the educated, English-speaking American establishment but not everybody is. You are suggesting that the country is only for you and people like you. In order to be accepted, you are suggesting people have to change to fit your social and ethic identity. I suspect you are using the catchphrase "nation of immigrants" and not really thinking about what it means. I am curious: what is your position on immigration reform?
Legion: No, I don't hate America.
Brandon: Everything you said was SLANDER AND LIES. You are on a mission to paint me as something I'm not by spewing out bullcrap. You ruined my topic.
Brandon: Everything you said was SLANDER AND LIES. You are on a mission to paint me as something I'm not by spewing out bullcrap. You ruined my topic.
You can't just spout of OUTRIGHT LIES. I'm done with this topic, Brandon ruined it.
wah wah wah somebody call the wahmbulance
Didn't Jefferson say it would be ideal if a democracy was overthrown every 20 years?
Yes but I'm pretty sure he was just trying to be shocking. :P
I'm not going to qualify his outright lies by responding accordingly.
He's saying I want to kill and imprison mexicans. It's just mindless insult slinging and smearing/slandering, don't fall for it.
This topic was fine until Brandon fagged it up. Nice debating with you, Canuck, Holb, Kentona, Asa, Feld, Ody.
He's saying I want to kill and imprison mexicans. It's just mindless insult slinging and smearing/slandering, don't fall for it.
This topic was fine until Brandon fagged it up. Nice debating with you, Canuck, Holb, Kentona, Asa, Feld, Ody.
Clest
0
I am not "North" American (yeah, let´s remember America is the whole continent folks) and while I don´t think flags nor other physical objects are of matter, I get what Harmo was trying to say regarding the American principles, also if he explained it more clealy afterwards, the best that can be done is to believe what he says about his own comment and let it be.
And Harmo, just state your point and leave it be too, if ppl don´t believe you, what matters is that you expressed what you wanted.
And Harmo, just state your point and leave it be too, if ppl don´t believe you, what matters is that you expressed what you wanted.
I believe that the flag should be respected. As a symbol, it does a moderately acceptable job of symbolizing some facets of our country. But it's fine if you do not respect it. I am not going to murder you. Hell, you are even supposed to burn it upon certain instances!
However, most people get those facets terribly wrong.
However, most people get those facets terribly wrong.
